Brandon ([info]normalcyispasse) wrote in [info]motorcycles,
@ 2009-01-03 17:16:00
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Ducati throttle body sticking
On Wednesday I rode my '04 Ducati Monster S4R to work. On the way home I noticed that the bike was sightly more hesitant to roll off the throttle occasionally. It seemed like there wasn't as much engine braking as normal, but I chalked it up to paranoia on my part.

On Thursday I took the Duc out to one of my favorite twisty roads. Within a few corners I was having some very serious issues: The throttle was sticking open! The first time I attributed my slide to poor road conditions, but after a second lurid ass-end drift I realized that something wasn't right. I clutched the bike down the rest of the hill.

I took a peek at the throttle mechanism (thankfully, on a naked bike, these things are easy to see). Turns out the throttle body simply wasn't closing, and because the throttle on a Ducati is NOT a push-pull system I couldn't manually close the throttle. I lubricated the throttle return springs with some WD-40 but could not get the vanes to return to closed position automatically, so I caught a ride, picked up my truck, and towed the bike back home.

Today I cleaned everything well and lubricated the throttle cable to no effect, and then took apart the airbox system (geez, Ducati engineers, did you have to make it so that I had to remove the radiator and shroud just to get to a bolt to remove the airbox from the frame? seriously?). This is what it looks like, in fiche form:



The throttle shaft running between both throttle bodies is what controls the simultaneous actuation of the butterfly vanes. It's a simple pushrod system. Well, when I disconnect the pushrod from the front throttle drum everything works perfectly. Both throttle vanes open easily and smoothly and snap closed instantly. With the pushrod connected, however, things get strange. The throttle is hard to open and sticks solid, requiring quite a bit of pressure to return it to closed. I lubricated the attachment points but as soon as the shaft is reconnected the throttle system doesn't want to play nicely, yet without the shaft -- which is a simple solid threaded rod -- both throttle systems work beautifully.

I hope that you folks who are snowed in aren't too bitter to help a fellow cyclist. ;) That said, what am I missing? Why is the throttle shaft causing me problems? The problem really came on suddenly, without any apparent cause (no falls or shocks or anything, and the pushrod does not appear to be bent).

Thanks!



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I know. . .
[info]normalcyispasse
2009-01-04 12:31 am UTC (link)

(Reply to this)

I don't know much about the duk FI system
[info]polyanarch
2009-01-04 12:34 am UTC (link)
But if you have eliminated any type of mechanical binding between the control rod and the two TB's then perhaps there might be some vacuum issue? Does the Duk use any vacuum in the TBs? If it does I could conceive of some issue where a damaged anti-backflow valve is not allowing both TB's to operate under the same vacuum and thus causing them to fight each other and not play in unison.

This is just a shot in the dark. Maybe you might want to take it to the $tealer and take your lumps with the $5000 standard service bill (I exaggerate -but not much!) As you have already surmised, this can be an extremely dangerous condition.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I don't know much about the duk FI system
[info]normalcyispasse
2009-01-04 01:05 am UTC (link)
It's not a vacuum thing -- in fact, it really DOES seem like a mechanical binding issue with the pushrod, but I just can't seem to see it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't know much about the duk FI system
[info]polyanarch
2009-01-04 01:10 am UTC (link)
Did you make sure that the throttle cable was totally disengaged?

The only other thing I could think of is maybe the bearing surface of the axle pin that connects the outsidey bits to the insidey bits is worn or somehow pitted so that when there is any torsional twist to it that it binds up, but when it is isn't under any outside load it operates just fine. If you wiggle the arm that connects to the pushrod where it goes into the TB does it seem to have a LOT of play that it shouldn't have on one or the other units?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tomatoe333
2009-01-04 12:35 am UTC (link)
Lube the throttle cable itself. You can get a tool at your local dealer to force lube into it, as well as cable lube. Yes, use real cable lube, or something VERY light. I've used DuPont Teflon Spray Lube before.

Take a look at how the pushrod side-loads the throttle plates. You may find your answer there. It could be that there's some play in the bushings of the throttle shafts, or something similar. Regardless of all of that, lubing the throttle cable regularly is a VERY good idea.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]normalcyispasse
2009-01-04 01:06 am UTC (link)
Yep, lubed the throttle cable. I usually use something like 3-in-1.

There may be some lateral loading. . . I'll have to check that out, but I couldn't see any (and I was looking).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]spurnnedhistory
2009-01-04 12:44 am UTC (link)
It might be a tumor.

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[info]scarybaldguy
2009-01-04 01:37 am UTC (link)
Or lupus.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]spurnnedhistory
2009-01-04 02:47 am UTC (link)
But judging by the symptoms it's probably gout.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kizayaen
2009-01-04 04:24 am UTC (link)
It's never lupus.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kutztowndragon
2009-01-04 01:57 am UTC (link)
I don't know what it could be but getting one of these dentist mirrors could help you find out. Epically on a Duc where all the bits are up and under and behind stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dental-Mirror-Tool-Instrument-Inspection-Dentist-Auto_W0QQitemZ260335733779QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260335733779&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

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[info]mrcrash
2009-01-04 03:35 am UTC (link)
So if you manually opened the butterflies with the rod in place and the cable disconnected, the butterflies will *not* close, correct?

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[info]normalcyispasse
2009-01-04 03:43 am UTC (link)
This is correct. Furthermore, it is very difficult to open or close the butterflies with the rod connected -- it takes serious pressure, but with the rod disconnected they're free and fine.

All the cable does is actuate the primary throttle drum. On the throttle drum/cam shaft is mounted a secondary arm to which the pushrod is bolted. Upon the cable opening the spring-return throttle drum, the rod then pushes the second throttle drum for the other throttle body. In theory, anyway. This is how it has worked up until Thursday.

The lack of a return cable is problematic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]mrcrash
2009-01-04 03:51 am UTC (link)
I've run single cable setups on two different bikes without problems - on my SV650 with FCR flatslides and on my EX500 with CR smoothbores. Despite the assurance of a couple of different racers and mechanics, I still wasn't very comfortable with it!

I'd guess that something was bent or misaligned, as I had a shifter lever / push rod assembly stick on me when I bent a footpeg that it pivoted on.

Good luck getting that worked out!

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[info]tomatoe333
2009-01-04 10:46 am UTC (link)
That would be my thought too. Something bent/misaligned.

Are the carbs attached to a bracket that keeps them aligned? Maybe they're loose or that bracket is bent a little bit? If the bracket is weak, it could simply be the force of opening/closing the throttle that's bent it slightly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Ducati throttle body sticking
[info]curt1950
2009-01-04 04:43 pm UTC (link)
You might want to take the rod-end off and soak it in oil for a while then try to move it full travel to make sure its free. I've had rod-ends that have rusted inside, they move a little but not enough for what you need.

curt

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[info]baby_goat
2009-01-04 06:42 pm UTC (link)
Replacing the throttle cables on my air-cooled Monster was irritating enough. I can only imagine it's twice as big of a pain in the ass with that big honking radiator in the way. Good luck.

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sticking throttle
(Anonymous)
2009-03-21 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Hi Chaps i have a 2002 748 bi which has recentley started playing up with the trottle sticking which is a pain in the pants division when trying engine brake or when reving the nuts out of it changing gear which of course lifts the front end!i have been told by my local Duke dealer this could be a distorted throttle body which is serious money to rectify, i have someone calling me earley next week to see if they can shed any more light on the subject.
Thanks Graham (new to biking)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: sticking throttle
[info]normalcyispasse
2009-03-21 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Check to see if your problem is the same as mine. Pull apart the throttle body assemblies and check the action of the push arm. If it sticks anywhere in the range of motion, that's probably your issue. I doubt it's a deformed TB.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Sticking thottle body
(Anonymous)
2009-04-16 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this article.
I had the same problem with my Ducati on the wrong moment and i unfortunately crashed und was very lucky to survive. Now I am very interested in what you found as root cause because this could help me to prove that the crash was not my fault.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Sticking thottle body
[info]normalcyispasse
2009-04-16 04:49 pm UTC (link)
The throttle is not a push-pull system with multiple cables as is commonly seen in performance motorcycles. Instead, the throttle is a pull-type only. The twist grip pulls a cable on a cam (as normal), which activates the throttle drum on the front cylinder.

Attached to the throttle drum is a threaded (for tuning purposes) pushrod. This attaches to a separate throttle drum on the rear cylinder. The linkage to which it attaches swivels as the throttle is pulled and the front throttle body is opened, thus activating the rear throttle body in kind. When the throttle is closed, return power is provided by a spring on the rear throttle drum.

On my bike, I found that the linkage on the rear throttle body was bound. There was a substance in the linkage itself that was preventing smooth actuation of the return spring or even opening of the TB (it eventually froze the throttle altogether!). By removing the threaded rod and linkage, removing the linkage's circlip and pressing out its internals I was able to clean the entire system. I cleaned and lubricated the system with 3-in-1. Upon reassembly the throttle worked perfectly. I had to resynchronize the throttle bodies but everything's fine now.

I'm sorry to hear you crashed because of your sticking throttle. Believe me, I came far too close for comfort!


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