16 November 2009 @ 07:30 pm
So, I need some help here.
I'm probably going to get a Meluna.
I'm a 15 year old, and therefore need a lot of information about insertion and removal. I'm somewhat nervous, but I'm willing to try and try hard.
I have a lot of trouble, and if anyone has any ideas to help, that would be nice as well.
I'm sorry if I am coming off as immature. I hope I'm not; I'm just very shy.
Thank you for reading.
16 November 2009 @ 08:21 am
Silly question
This is ridiculous. And apparently I'm 12 because only someone immature would ask, but:

When you insert/remove, is your hand awfully bloody? No one mentions that part when they talk about the process and it is something I have been wondering about.

I am currently on my period and hating it. I don't have a cup. I haven't had the money to order one, and even though I'm faily certain I've chosen an Orange Lady cup, I'm of course, nervous it isn't the right decision. *sigh*

I want to try a cup so badly, but I am a complete stranger with my female parts. I have no idea what's going on down there. I tried locating my cervix while I was trying to get pregnant because I was using the FAM method, but I don't know that I ever actually touched it. I couldn't tell!

I'm sure I'm just over-thinking this and just need to dive in, but I don't want to invest in a cup and then not follow through because I couldn't figure it out and because I was "grossed out".

Any thoughts?

Edit: Thanks all of your for your kind input. This is such a great community. I love lurking here.
08 November 2009 @ 10:00 am
and then there was suction...
 OH MY GOD!.... so everything went rolling along great on my dry run with the meluna a few posts back, and I thought it was amazing...except its been nearly in there 36 hours and I'm still trying to remove it.  I can barely reach the rim and have been using a rubber glove at this point because even though I've been taking breaks and let it sit overnight, my vag is a bit pissy at me. I have read all the comments about removal and bearing down is helping a little bit, I can reach the ring stem I just can't get the suction to break or grab the bottom of the cup.  Does anyone have experience with meluna specifically and the suction they bring due to only having two holes and the stiffer rim? Previously I thought I couldn't fit a large...because I thought I'd located my cervix and I was close but whatever that was wasn't my cervix.   The cup thats in there is the size of the large from rim to stem, so you can bet my large order is in and on its way....I'm lucky I want to use a cup so bad, this removal process would have scared anyone else to never touch a cup again. I assume the majority of today will be spent trying to get this thing out. 
03 November 2009 @ 01:06 pm
First post after visiting you every day for a year

Hi! (and sorry for the long post)

I'm a 21 year old Israeli virgin. I first came across menstrual cups a year ago while reading an article in the news paper about families in the big cities, who live their lives as environment friendly as possible. It said that one of the women was cloth diapering her baby and was using something reusable for her period, that she had to empty and wash.

Hhhmm… interesting I thought. I never liked pads and tampons but didn't know better. Not long before that day I was wondering, if it was possible to invent something you could put inside the vagina that would only hold back the flow rather than absorb it and create a perfect seal. I assumed that for it to stay in place it had to be shaped like a cup… and then it could collect the flow. I didn't know that what I was "inventing" already existed for about 70 years!

So I researched on the internet for "reusable tampons" (yes… I know, it sounds gross) because I didn't know it was called cups, and found the MCUK first (it's the only cup you can buy here). I was instantly hooked!! My dream came true!! I kept looking for as much information about them as possible. I couldn't find anything bad about this product.

A week later I bought a small MCUK and was a bit intimidated because of the size (six month later I became a proud user of a large lunette without any size problems). I used the C fold and it once poped open right at the entrance… try telling me about pain!! After a few attempts, I finally had success.

The C fold is my favorite fold, it never disappoints me! I prefer having the whole rim inside me at the same time while inserting only half of the cup and letting it pop open then. After that I push it gently in the right position, my suuuper low cervix sitting inside the cup.

For those of you who have troubles getting the C fold to pop open: Try to push the still C shaped base/ low middle section of the cup with your thumb and middle finger from the top and the bottom of the "C". It works wonders for me with the large lunette.

Removal: I prefer the gentle rocking from side to side while pulling down and letting one side of the rim out at a time. Never had problems with it with both cups. At the beginning I use to push the cup back to a C fold, because of thinking the rim part was too big to get out. But it ended every time in spilling blood over my hand and pain when getting the rim out. I recommend relaxing and rocking the open cup out.

To prevent the light leaking stains some of you have: I stir with a finger a few times around the cup on heavy days, until there is no residual blood on the walls in my vagina (it was suggested here before).

Leaking when the cup is not full: Never happened to me! But I read here many posts about this problem.  Possible answer: Not having a good seal + being in a position that allows the blood to reach the holes (like lying down ect.). I noticed that when I fill my cup with water above the holes and touch a hole with my finger, water comes through the hole and runs down my finger. In a real case it is the vagina wall "touching" the hole + not having a good seal. Please comment on this, so I know what you think about my "theory".

I could go on and on in my excitement about cups. I've told literally every woman I know about cups and bought a MCUK for my younger sister. But sadly my friends still don't share this excitement.

Thank you, all of you!!! You have been an awesome help in my one year journey with cups, that will continue until I hit menopause.*grin*

02 November 2009 @ 04:30 pm
Lady cup removal
Hello from Russia, again :)
I've been using my Mooncup UK size B for several months, but it leaked, so I decided to try a Lady Cup.
Now I'm on my first cycle with Blue Cup (large), and I'm happy everything about it except removing...
With Mooncup UK I could squeeze the baze to release the seal and then rock it from side to side - and here it is. But with the Blue Cup it doesn't work - squeezing the baze doesn't release the seal and it's too slippery to rock it. The only way I found is to insert my finger and fold the cup a little like C-fold. Works, but most of the blood is spilled! Not great as I'm removing it squatting and the blood spills on the floor.
So, Lady Cup users, how do you remove it without spillig? Is it possible? :)
06 October 2009 @ 10:21 am
Some vaginal swelling
This is my first cycle using a DivaCup. I've had no problem with inserting, using the punchdown method. I'm having a moderate amount of trouble with removal. I'm mostly getting the hang of that too although breaking suction is a real problem, it's just so strong and I can't get a finger inside the rim to break the seal. Bearing down does bring the cup right down, and I try squeeze it to break suction, but it seems to take a bit for it to take in any air.

What has happened a few times is I have managed to squeeze the rim together, but it has opened completely just as I am getting it out. Today I noticed I have significant swelling on the right side of my vagina, and a little less on the left. It feels very firm.

Is this normal? Should I not use the cup today? I can't tell if it is possibly the stem irritating me, as I am quite "long" inside and don't feel the stem or anything when I have the cup positioned well. Since I'm having difficulty with removal, I don't know if I should trim the stem or not. Mostly I want to know about this firm swelling. Thanks! (BTW I already have a LadyCup and Lunette on order just for "fun" as I'm so intrigued with cups in general. I am 47, 2 c-sections no vaginal births.)
22 September 2009 @ 01:55 pm
IUD Removal
Hello,  

I am a user of the Diva Cup for about 4 months and I have had no problems.  It is comfortable and easy for me to insert and remove.

With that, I am getting an IUD inserted in about a week.  Because removal is so easy for me, I do not think I will have a problem with the IUD.

However, when I remove my Diva Cup I have to bear down quite a bit and use a lot of my muscles because my Diva Cup goes so high in my cervix.  Is there any way that the IUD will come lose from using my muscles so much when I remove it?  If so, does anyone know of any menstrual cups that do not have the possibility of going so high that  causes me to need to use my muscles?

Thanks for your help.  I love this forum and this community!  


Tags: ,
20 September 2009 @ 12:02 am
A little advice, please
I've been watching this community for a few months now, gathering information until I finally decided that I did want to try a cup and I wanted to try the Lunette. Living in the US, it is very difficult to get one, but thanks to a helpful link by one of the members, I ordered one from a store that was willing to ship to the US. (Yes, I know it was not the cheapest way to go, but all the info I gathered said that this would probably be the cup for me, so I figured why not? I'll use it for at least a few years, anyway!)

Fast forward to yesterday, my small Lunette came in the mail! I was so excited that I got ready to try a "dry run" right away. I was very disappointed when I couldn't get it in no matter how much I relaxed. The instructions only showed the "C" fold, and it was too big for me. So this morning, I started scouring this community again, and came upon a link to a great video showing lots of different folds, as well as a whole lot of posts with other good advice about relaxing and understanding how you're put together "down there." I was feeling hopeful, and went for another try, testing out several different folds. It never went in all the way, but it was actually going in some, so I was reassured but stopped because I didn't want to irritate anything too much.

Then tonight, I tried the "Double 7" fold a couple times again, and the last time it went in! ...but I don't think it was quite right. It was sitting very low, the bottom of the cup was at the opening of the vagina. I also don't think it opened. It seemed like it was pressing unequally on my insides, but I couldn't get a finger up beside it to check. I'm a virgin, and a small person all around (though I think my canal may be long, because I haven't been able to touch my cervix...though I have only tried a couple times). The second problem was removal. Again, it was hard to get a grip on the base of the cup because I couldn't get my fingers very far up. I pinched it a little, and heard some suction release, but then when I finally pulled it out, it hurt pretty bad. I know it will be easier when I am actually menstruating, but should it be easier/less painful to remove?

So, I guess what I'm asking is:
Is it normal/alright for the bottom of cup to sit that low?
What are some tips for checking the seal that don't involve running your finger up beside the cup?
Do you have any tips to make removal less painful?

I will go looking through the other posts for some answers too, but any you could give would be much appreciated.
11 September 2009 @ 04:22 pm
I GOT MY PERIOD:-)
I think I got my period sometime last night but I didn't start feeling crampy until early this afternoon so I checked my diva cup (which I had in place because I was expecting my cycle to start at any minute) and lo and behold, it was about 3/4 full! I was so excited I wanted to take a picture lol! My first and second days are the my heaviest but I'm not sure exactly how long it took to get that full so I'll have to time it the next time I empty. I must admit, I didn't think I would be so successful so soon! I did a few "dry runs" about a week to try different folds, practice removal, etc. and I'm SOOOOOO glad I did! Just one question: I don't know if it's because my cup was so full, or if I did something funky in removing it, or just because I'm new to this, but when I broke the seal a stream of blood flowed over my hand. Does this happen every time? I'm gonna see how things go for the rest of this cycle and if all is well, I will be on a mission to convert as many people as I can, lol. Thanks to everyone who is a part of this comunity :-)
Tags:
05 September 2009 @ 11:36 am
Comparing tampons, cups, sponges
Hi! I've been stalking this community for some time. I've been surfing the tags, but haven't found satisfiable comparisons. This is x-posted to [info]menstrual_lib and [info]menstrualhut because I love opinions.

My big question is about comparing insertion and taking out of tampons/cups/sponges.

Which is
  • easier to take in/out,

  • more comfortable just after insertion and after it's been in there a while,

  • easier to get used to,

  • requires the littlest practice,

  • and simpler to handle in public restrooms?


  • Public restrooms I'm most concerned about as I'm out for 5 hours at a time. Though one can hope her university restroom is clean, they're usually just awkward.

    Where I am right now: I just bought a sea sponge beause I have no patience for the fact that I have no patience for trying to insert a tampon! I've never been able to put anything in (probably because I'm so squeemish about it), but figured maybe sponges would be easier since they're not dry and they're more flexible.

    Also, regarding sponges, what kind of fabric should one sew on as a string? I suck at sewing, so would trying to sew on a string be worth it? "Mr Turtle, how many pulls does it take to completely screw up a bad sewing job?" "Let's see. One, two...two."
    11 August 2009 @ 10:55 am
    MeLuna review!
    So, here's that MeLuna review finally! Sorry it took so long, things have been busier than I expected. But my period came today AND [info]fearthefear commented to ask me where my review was, both of which were good reminders!

    I have mixed feelings about the cup. I have their smaller size and I chose the ball stem. On the one hand, it's the most comfortable cup I've ever worn; on the other hand, it can be more difficult to use than my others.

    Details behind the cut, also picture )

    There have been a lot of questions about ordering. When I ordered mine I completed the order process on the website, then emailed the company to ask what email address to use to send the money via PayPal. (Their website says you can use PayPal, but it doesn't show up as an option when you're making an international order, or at least it didn't a month ago, which is why I emailed them to get the address.) That worked fine, and it shipped out quickly.

    (Mods et al.: I threw on what tags looked relevant, feel free to add or remove tags as you see fit.)
    09 August 2009 @ 06:55 am
    Is it possible that a LC Large doesnt fit?
    A little Background.

    Im 25yr old with two children born vaginally over 8 pounds I gave a dry run w/ my LC small and was able to catch CM in the cup (was close to Ovulation) so, I would say I was successful. Last night I decided to give my Large a try after I just ordered a MeLuna. I attempted inserting the large with a punch down fold c fold and 7 fold. I feel it pop and  open I try and give it a twist and  and it jst slides out. I tried not giving it a twist and it still came out. I tried sitting on the toilet and inserting or laying down and even squatting. I am scared that Large may not be my size and I just ordered a MeLuna in Size  Medium which seems to be similar in size as the Lady cup Large.
     
     
    Current Mood: anxious
    08 August 2009 @ 01:54 pm
    LilacCup and Inside-out?
    Hello again everyone lol.
    I just got my new large and small LilacCups! Hurrah!
    On my test runs I noticed that it's kind of hard to remove, and I heard that sometimes putting it inside-out could help, does anyone have any experience doing this? And tips you could give for removal? Since it's super super slippery, =) thanks.
     
     
    Current Mood: bouncy
    06 August 2009 @ 07:09 am
    Diva Cup Disaster
    Hi All! I have been happily using the Keeper for two cycles and thought it would be nice to have a spare. I bought a Diva Cup since they are so easy to find in the US.

    I decided to give it a try this past Friday and COULD NOT GET IT OUT. I was mortified. I tried squatting, bearing down, laying down, etc... I could feel the stem, but it was *just* out of grasping reach (I admittedly have short arms and short fingers so that doesn't help matters any). I tried on 4 different occasions but had no luck. I finally had to swallow my pride and enlist the help of DH. He couldn't get it out either. He could feel the stem but couldn't get a good grip on it with two fingers. I finally decided to give up and go to bed. 
    I tried again in the morning with no luck. Finally, after two more failed attempts, DH was able to get it out...poor guy.

    With my Keeper, I am using the stem to remove it. I don't break the suction first. Someone on another board mentioned there could be "implications" from not breaking the suction first. What are the implications? Am I doing some kind of damage? I CANNOT reach the base of my cup to break suction first...I always use the stem for removal. Is this a problem?

    Hugs
    Helga
    01 August 2009 @ 04:14 pm
    New with a question!!!
    Hi! Ive been followng this community for a while, tryign to decide which cup I wanted and so forth... I decided on a Miacup and got it in today (yay!)

    Now, I gave birth vaginally 9 and a half months ago so i got the model 2. Im still exclusively breastfeeding so i have yet to recieve my cycle yet... So anyways, I popped it in for a dry run, left it in awhile and took it out after about 2 hours? It was a little difficult to get out, I couldnt seem to break the suction, Id pull it down and try to pinch the bottom but it was suctioned in! I cant get my forefinger and thumb in there, I have to kind of "scissor" it with my forefinger and middle finger... Is this normal? youd think I wouldnt be so tight after giving birth... =p Anyway when I took it out, there was some discharge in it and a little blood looking stuff... strange...

    ANyway, my second dry run, I just put it in and took it out, there was some blood. Not much, just some up by the rim and such... I dont think I scratched myself because I dont hurt down there or feel sore... but any clue as to what this blood is? Like I said Im NOT expectign a period and have not yet recieved one... Im quite baffled.
    23 July 2009 @ 09:00 am
    Going Back To Cups Now...

    Ok, so I'm all healed up and I think I'm ready to try going back to cups now...  But I also wanted to give out some advice on being super gentle with your body during your cycle when using cups, because being too fast / rough appears to be what got me into trouble...  

    Read more... )
    21 July 2009 @ 02:15 pm
    I need help!
     Okay so I just got the divacup yesterday night and I am having soo much trouble with it. I am only 15(almost 16) and a virgin. I was so excited to try this out since I'm a vegan and love the idea of not polluting the environment! Anyways, I am having quite a bit of leaking. It doesn't bother me that much since I can always wear a liner..except for the fact that I'm a swimmer and can't wear a liner into the pool obviously. It seems to be in the right place since I hear a pop and it seems really snug. I can't feel it at all but I still leak. The leaks mostly happen when I'm sitting or laying down. I was just wondering was going on!
    Also when I try to remove it it hurts like crazy. Like and unbelievable amount of pain. I try to break the seal but maybe I'm not doing it right?
    20 July 2009 @ 02:52 pm
    cup removal
    My name is Amy and I've been using Insteads since I saw their infomercial on latenight TV in 2000 and ordered a sample. They weren't so bad until I got an IUD last year, and between that and the part where I'm PCOS and went from 2 periods a year tops to having one a month - and heavier ones at that - I was finding they weren't working for me anymore. I just bought a model 2 Diva yesterday and am in love. No leaking so far, it just popped right into place, and the geekoid in me loves that it's marked for measurements on the inside.

    The only issue I've had is trying to remove it. I'm kind of automatically trying to pull it out the same way I would an Instead, which is not working since it has stronger suction and ow, also I'm afraid I'll pull my Paragard out with it. The best I've been able to come up with is to kind of pinch the bottom a bit to break suction, what other ways could I try? Thanks.
    Tags: ,
    16 July 2009 @ 02:01 pm
    Leakage and removal help!

    So, i've been using the Mooncup UK (B, as i'm 18 and no kids) for a few months now, and i've had no problems until now. (This is a great community btw, it helped answer many of the questions when I was first starting out!)
     

    leaking problem )removal and leaking )

     

    Sorry for the long post, and I know, TMI! So I guess my main problem is removal, as I can't seem to remove the cup with all the contents in the cup, and not all over my hand! I have heavy periods btw, and before using the mooncup, I used to have to change my pad every 2 hours. Also, I wear my mooncup high up, as everytime I try to keep it low, it always migrates up.

    I hope I explained it well and it's not too confusing


    09 July 2009 @ 04:16 pm
    Removal Trouble

    Hi There!

    This is my first time on Livejournal and with my Diva Cup so I'm really excited!

    So anyways, this is my first time with my diva cup and I'm 14 years old.  

    Read more... )

    And from the time I've been wearing my cup, I get light to medium cramps and usually I don't get cramps. Could this be because I'm not used to my cup yet?
    03 July 2009 @ 08:25 am
    vagina eating my diva cup!


    i've been following this site for a while before purchasing my diva cup... hopefully someone will have a tip for me because i haven't seen anything much about the problem i'm having.

    okay. so according to the directions that came with my diva cup, if you get a seal, the cup *can't* ride up. not the case!! no matter how shallow i put it in, my vagina sucks it up so it's so far in i have huge problems getting it in.

    i know it's sealed because:
    - i can hear the whoosh of air as it seals
    - it's not leaking (at all - i have to say this is wonderful!!)
    - it has huge suction when i go to take it out, have to squeeze and tug and pull, etc

    anyway, i was using the punch-down fold and trying to it position it so the stem was just outside of my body and i could feel it easily... guaranteed within 5 minutes it was so far in there i need to dig waaay inside to even find the stem and getting a grip of it was almost impossible.

    had that a few times, then tried putting it in just barely using the c-fold (the stem AND maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the base were visible from the outside using a mirror). that was fine while i was standing up but when i sat down - vagina sucked it up again!

    it's really comfortable when it's so far in there - my problem is it's so hard to get out and i'm kinda worried if i leave it in more than a few hours i won't be able to get it out.  the only thing i can think of is that maybe i should put a hole in the stem and put a string through like a tampon, just in case?!


    i didn't have this problem on my "dry runs" before my period so i'm assuming it has to do with my cervix moving, or just because things are slippery down there. any tips would be appreciated!! it is pretty awesome that it doesn't leak AT ALL... just want getting it out of my body to not be a 10-15 minute procedure!

    02 July 2009 @ 10:40 am
    Hey, new user here :)

    My period snuck up early this month so the nice little LadyCup I ordered arrived the exact day after it was over. But I just couldn't wait, so being a science nerd, I ran to the autoclave (hey, it said to sterilize it, right?) and now I'm taking this as opportunity to get my usage perfect before the date comes next month, and I have just a couple questions.

    First of all, I dry-run wore mine all day yesterday at college, through my back-to-back for 12 hours classes, and unlike tampons, I never felt any kind of discomfort, even though it is the large size (it is so not that big). If the bleeding goes well, I will never look back. I stalked this community for a long time before buying, and I just wanted to say thank you :)

    Somewhere on here I remember someone posting a link to a youtube video demonstrating different folding techniques. I can't find it! So if someone could link me, that would rock. Nevermind. One more second and I would have found it...

    I didn't have any trouble removing it like a lot of LadyCup users seemed to... Except that it was a little uncomfortable through the opening. Are you supposed to fold it when you pull it out too? If so, what fold are you supposed to do? I can't very well be doing origami in my vagina.

    Thanks ladies!
    30 June 2009 @ 03:43 pm
    US Teen & Lilac Cup.
    Hello Ladies.

    I'm fourteen, five foot one, 110 pounds, tiny framed, and can't put in a tampon.
    However, the cotton-y feel does bother me with those, so maybe, just maybe this will be better.

    I've been reading posts on this site for about six months,
    but have yet to purchase a menstrual cup.
    They seem great, but I have had doubts with my ability to put them in, etc.

    However, now i'm willing to take the needed time and focus on insertion.
    I'm in an intensive cheer camp right now, and periods and cheer is bad enough,
    without going through pads and cheer.
    So, i'm going to order one, hopefully today.

    I decided on the Lady Cup (in Lilac) because it's the smallest.
    However, the website and ordering is hugely confusing.
    And I have a few general questions.

    First off: getting one:

    Do the colors make a difference?
    Is their website the only place that sells them?
    How long does it take to ship (i'd really really really like to have it within a week)?
    Are there any US stores that carry them instock? Can you give me some examples?
    And if there isn't another option explain how to order off their website, please!
    +What should I order? Cleaning gel? 

    Second off: getting it in & out.
    What are good folds to use?
    Good positions? 
    Can I try putting it in when i'm not in my cycle?

    How do I attempt to get it out?
    Cleaning it?

    General comments?

    Thank you all so much in advance.
    Love, Luckyy23.
     
     
    Current Location: NY, US
    Current Mood: anxious
    27 June 2009 @ 12:43 am
    LilacCup Removal... Slippery!
    I posted a few months back about how my old Size 1 Diva was working perfectly post-partum, but after my lucky first cycle, it started leaking (just barely), and I realized I would need to buy a mommy sized cup. Since I'd started turning the Diva Cup inside out for the first two days of my period when my cervix is lowest, I decided to try a different brand. Plus, I just really wanted a purple cup.

    The first thing I noticed when my large LilacCup (by Ladycup)arrived was that it was freaking HUGE compared to my smaller sized Diva. I couldn't believe how much of a difference those few millimetres in width made and was a bit concerned it would be too big and unable to pop sufficiently open. I got the chance to try today, and while it is quite squished in there and doesn't form anything close to a circle, it does form a good seal and caught everything just fine. It was mildly uncomfortable and I found it caused cramping whereas the Diva Cup reduced cramping for me. I actually found the suction to be much stronger with the LadyCup, and I found myself actually missing the measurement lines a bit, but overall it wasn't bad for the first day. I would call it a success.

    The problem came when I tried to remove the thing. Holy crap, that cup is slippery! I knew it wouldn't have as easy a grip as the Diva, but honestly, the tiny little grippers on the bottom of the LC did nothing at all to help me remove it. I've been using cups for years and know how to properly remove them, but this was just so incredibly slippery that I couldn't pull it down at all. I had to reach my finger all the way up to the top, push the rim against my poor cervix, and yank it all the way out from the top, spilling most of the blood in the process. It was not comfy or fun!

    I still like the LC a lot and would like to stick with it for the beginnings of my periods (my beloved Diva still works fine for days 3 and later of each period.) But if I don't get this removal situation sorted out, I'm going to have to head out to buy a Size 2 Diva instead. If anyone has any suggestions for overcoming the slippery-omg-no-grip situation with the LC, I'd really appreciate it! I want a pretty purple cup!
     
     
    Current Mood: hopeful
    25 June 2009 @ 04:24 pm
    YAY!
    My PinkCup arrived! Tis awesome, had a couple of tries since I'm still on my week and so far, so great! Cos it's shorter I'm still working on getting a good grip on the base - do you normally need to be able to pinch much of the cup to break the seal? I tug on the stem a little at first to bring it down (I left half of it on just in case my cup went on safari), but I'm always scared of causing a prolapse by that little bit of suction... especially now that everything's changed since having a baby. I was having a rummage to see what I'm like now and either I couldn't find my cervix before or it's lower now.

    Mah - so many worries over a little bit of bleeding and plastic!

    PinkCup is lovely and soft and very comfy once it's in, though :)