23 October 2009 @ 12:11 pm
Found a foolproof de-smellifying cleaning method
I moved from a rubber Keeper to a Lunette a couple of years ago, and with both I found the same thing: I would forget about it for a day, sometimes, and a horrible smell would occur which would cling to the cup -- and my hands, which even soap would not budge!

This happened again last week, and in the past I have tried methods mentioned on here, except for the neem oil and rubbing alcohol ones, because shelling out $10 for a bottle on the offchance it would work when I would only use it for the one thing wasn't really cutting any ice with my budget.

Neither have I ever gone with peroxide, what with it not being recommended and all that.

Tea tree oil didn't work; it made it smell tea tree-y and bad smell mixed; ew.

Vinegar didn't work, although I had high hopes; it mellowed it a bit, not so funky.

Baking soda and boiling water didn't work, even being soaked for a day.

Someone mentioned leaving it out in the sun, so I washed it out well with hot water and soap and put it outside in full sun ... and, going with tradition, forgot about it. Three days later I remembered it and fetched it back.

It's a MIRACLE. Not only does it have no smell at all, but the sun bleached it back to its original translucent whiteness, as it'd been developing a distinct yellow tinge. It felt all right, not sticky or anything, but I figure if you can put silicone bakeware in the oven a bit of sun won't hurt it, right?
 
 
Current Mood: happy
01 October 2009 @ 01:06 pm
Smell
This is my 3rd cycle using the MCUK.

I doesn't leak anymore (thanks to your precious advice!!!) - I love it.

But now I noticed that it smells. Like........... I know this will sound gross, but do you know what it smells like when the farrier cuts a horses hooves? This cheesey, pungent smell? Well, my cup smells like that!

I boiled it before putting it back in the closet at the end of last cycle. 
I did this just to experiment. It didn't smell then.

The smell is not that strong, but I rather have it NOT smelling!

What can I do?
Can I use an essential oil on it? Which one? I have read about Neem oil, but I cannot find that. I have access to Tea Trea Oil, though.

Or peroxide water? What strength? 10%?




31 July 2009 @ 10:04 am
bitter/pungent smell
Right now I'm on my menses and using my cup. The last day or two what I have found is that when I go to empty the cup as soon as I pull it out there is a strong bitter/pungent smell. I checked the cup and it's not it that smells so I'm thinking it's my discharge (I'm on day 3, a fairly heavy day by the way). Does anyone have experience with this and is it something I should be geting checked out? TIA

x-posted to vaginapagina
02 July 2009 @ 12:59 pm
MCUK, Lunette Selene(sm), Possibly removing smells.
Hello Ladies!

I've been lurking in this community for a while, but never actually posted. Quick about me: 27, no kids, on the heavy side, low hanging cervix. Or I think it's low, it's around 1.5 inches(4.5cm) from my outer labia during my period. At any rate, I've been using cups for around 3 years, and of course, I love them! I even accidentally converted a friend just by virtue of raving about the awesomeness of my cup.

My first cup was an Mooncup UK, size "b" or the small one. I've cut the stem all the way off, but occasionally I can feel it anyways. Usually only if I'm riding my bike. I assume this is because when I'm on my bike everything gets compressed, except the cup. I also constantly had problems with even the tiniest organic applicatorless tampons poking me, too. But that didn't bother me. It was always easy to insert and remove for me, popped right open. Taking it out I would just grab the base and yank, suction be damned. I didn't care about an extra cramp from the suction. xD

But then, about 6 months ago, I got a copper IUD. This changed things, I used my cup for my first cycle after the IUD was inserted. I had tried using pads, but I just couldn't handle it. I had honestly forgotten how disgusting and uncomfortable they were. But then I quickly discovered the joys of overflowing a cup! I have a light flow compared to most of my women friends, so I never had that problem before. I was emptying a completely full MCUK every 2 hours. Not good! So I went shopping. Thanks to the lovely comparison charts on this community, I opted for a small Lunette Selene. Now I can get away with 4 hours on my heaviest day before it overflows. I can live with that. The Lunette is harder to pop open compared to the MCUK, but there seems to be less suction. At least, after the IUD I tried to be careful of the suction with my MCUK and it took a lot longer to break the suction and remove than the Lunette. I've also cut the tab about halfway off my Lunette, and I haven't had the poking problems I had with my MCUK. For some reason, though, my menstrual blood often seems to have a smell from the Lunette that I never noticed with my MCUK. I have no idea why that is, but it's not horribly offensive nor does the smell linger on the cup, so I'm not worried.

But, this brings me to this period! My period was dragging its feet and was refusing to come. I was getting red dribble for a couple days and I finally said, "enough is enough!" and bought some fresh parsley. I've found parsley tea and a parsley pessary work wonders to make a late period show. And because I *was* dribbling a little bit of blood, I didn't want to just insert the parsley and leave it, It would have leaked! So I stuffed my Lunette full of parsley and inserted it. I hardly have to fold either cup for insertion, so the fact that it was full and not easily squishable didn't bother me. The parsley stuffed cup wasn't in terribly long, maybe 4 hours. I was worried the cup hadn't sealed, being so full of fresh parsley leaves, and would leak. I also had some parsley tea that day and lo and behold the next day, the floodgates had opened! So, good. Then I had to empty my Lunette a bunch, and one time while doing so, I noticed that funk I mentioned earlier. After rinsing my cup off (I don't use soap anymore except for right at the end of my cycle before boiling) I sniffed it, to make sure the funk hadn't lingered. And I could still smell the parsley from the day before! It sure smelled nice and fresh. I was surprised. But I'm wondering if anyone has ever thought to use parsley to get rid of smells on their cup? Perhaps stuffing the cup full of fresh parsley and then boiling? Or allowing it to soak in warm water? Is that insane? I know parsley is recommended as a breath freshener after eating, but maybe it would work as a cup freshener, too.

Mods: I tried to tag it, but if I left any out or tagged incorrectly feel free to fix that. Sorry!
21 June 2009 @ 01:18 am
questions, questions, questions
Hey all, first time cup user.  I have the model 1 Diva (21, no pregnancies). I'm on the second day of my period and haven't had any serious issues with insertion, popping, or removal. HOWEVER...I was diagnosed with BV 1 day before my period started. I'm on antibiotics for it for the next 7 days. I didn't even think to ask about cup use during the infection, also I didn't sniff the cup before the first time I put it in.

I sniffed it after I removed it, though, and noticed a...chemical/plastic...ish/I-don't-know-what kind of smell. I washed it with dove soap, and it didn't go away. I soaked it in undiluted peroxide, and it didn't go away. It doesn't smell anything like me - also, the BV wasn't/isn't causing a strong odor - I just noticed extra discharge and got checked out. I poured some of the blood from the cup into my hand in the shower and smelled it, and it didn't have a strong odor or smell anything like the cup.

My questions are: 1) Should the cup have any smell at all or is it odor neutral? 2) Does silicone have a certain smell? 3) Should I stop using the cup for this cycle, and continue use next month when my infection is cleared up? 3b) Will continuing to use the cup this cycle keep "re-infecting" me unless I sterilize it after every removal/ before every insertion?

Thank you in advance. :)
20 June 2009 @ 10:57 pm
Getting rid of cup smells
My cup was smelling awful today and I used what I always do on bacteria; a good coating of Neem Oil.
It was like shooting squirrels with a cannon. Within an hour it smelt only of neem.
I really like the smell, but I'm aware lots of people don't, so give it a good sniff before you try it!
07 May 2009 @ 03:11 am
blue, pretty, but skaaanky...
Hi everyone,

Today I had the most disgusting experience with my cup (lunette selene).
After having it inside me for about 6 hours, when I took it out, it smelled like something dead. HORRIBLE.
I immediately boiled it for 5mins.
Smell test 1: PLEASE, I need oxygen (that thing was so darn STIIINKY)!
I soaked it in a cup of water with a titchy amount of vinegar (about 1/4 teaspoon) for 1 hour.
Smell test 2: Bleaarrgh. Rotten fish smells better than this blue beauty!
I stuck it in a cup, filled it up with baking soda and poured a 50/50 water/vinegar solution over it. Let it sit for 1/2 hour.
Smell test 3: GROSS.
Final idea (I couldn't get my hands on rubbing alcohol yet, so this was the best I came up with after reading some of the smelly-cup posts): I stuffed it with newspaper. 2 hours later, I took the NP out.
Smell test 4: A teeny-weeny bit less skanky, but still enough to make me want to keel over backwards.

Any ideas? I don't want to use hydrogen peroxide, but I've run out of baking soda...

Thanks! 
29 April 2009 @ 09:26 pm
Smell Issue
Hi everyone -

I have been using the Diva Cup for several months now, and this is the first time I have had any problems with really ranky smell that won't go away on my cup. I have previously had a kind of "period smell" of blood and cervical fluid on my cup, but it would always go away as soon as I cleaned my cup with Diva Wash or alcohol. This time, soaking it in alcohol didn't work, and neither did washing it with anti-bacterial soap (and rinsing it very well - I know the danger of anti-bacterials on the vagina, but I have been at my wit's end trying to get rid of the smell). Right now I'm not wearing it - I soaked it in rubbing alcohol while I showered, then took it out to let it air out. It's been about a half an hour, and it still smells of the ranky smell, with a rubbing alcohol overlay. >_<

Normally, I would just let it wait until my next period. However, I think part of the problem may be that my period is running late? I have been wearing it over a week off of my period because I expected my period to start last week and it hasn't yet. My luck and class schedule in the past has almost always guaranteed that it would start in the middle of a two-hour lecture class, so I usually start wearing my cup the morning that I expect my period to start.

Now, however, I have a late period that could theoretically start at any moment and a ranky smelling Diva Cup. >_< Also, my fingers smell ranky when I take it out to clean it (which I do several times a day, even though my period hasn't started) but I can't tell if it's from me specifically or if it's from the cup making me smell, which in turn would make my fingers smell. (The smell doesn't linger on my hands after washing them, for what it's worth. Regular soap and water does the trick for my hands. It just doesn't seem to do anything for the Diva Cup.)

I looked through the memories and I found a lot of postings about things that haven't worked thus far for me (soap and hot water, alcohol) and other solutions that take a week to a month (airing it out, vinegar and letting it air out, etc). I will probably try the stuffing it with newspaper method tonight with hopes the smell will be gone by morning.

Is there anything else someone can suggest for a "quick fix" in case my period starts overnight?

If it makes any difference with the smell, I've been under a lot of stress lately (a lot of stress) which is what I suspect is throwing off my period. Could this also be causing the smell? One of the posts mentioned pH imbalances due to stress - how exactly does that happen?

ETA: Woke up with monster cramps at 4 AM, and sure enough, the Red Menace had arrived. It was exactly a week late like this last month, too - I'm thinking that I should start looking into what the problem might be. :/ At any rate, no other menstrual products in the house, and I wasn't about to wake up the entire house at 4 AM to drive a half an hour to get them, so I'm using my cup.

I didn't have any peroxide in the house last night, so I just left it to air out under a strong lamp (one of the previous posts had mentioned strong sunlight). The outside of the cup smelled less ranky when I had to put it in - the smell was barely there, and the inside still smelled, so the light may have been doing the trick. I'll probably pick up baking soda and peroxide today so that I can try both of them with my next couple showers. I just got up to empty my cup and the smell was still lingering despite being my first empty-out and rinse; however, there didn't seem to be additional smell because of the blood, and it was no worse than last night, possibly slightly better. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on it.
 
 
Current Mood: aggravated
17 February 2009 @ 11:46 pm
why whyyyy
so, i've been using my Diva since October I think.
And it stinks.
So.
Bad.
It JUST started smelling bad this last period.
Something weird happened and I missed my January period. I'm 18 and I got my period when I was 9 and I've been regular ever since. Never missed one. And I'm queer so I'm positive I wasn't pregnant or anything. Could that have something to do with the smell?
Now I'm all paranoid that that's what I really smell like and I just never knew.
It's disgusting.
I live in a dorm so boiling it is going to be a bit of a challenge...
I'll do it but I'm fairly sure a jock will walk up and ask me what I'm doing.
"BOILING MY MENSTRUAL CUP, DUHHHHH"
And I looked but I can't find a detailed entry about turning Divas inside out and why and all that. How would this work??? I'm so confused.
Please forgive me, I'm super new to this community.
Thanks so much!
 
 
Current Mood: confused
25 January 2009 @ 12:52 pm
Bluecup / Smell / Diva Wash
So my blue ladycup arrived a few days ago, i ordered the small and wow it really is SMALL! I did a test run and dang its very slippery compared to my diva and mooncup uk. In comparison my Diva (small) is the largest of the 3 so i use that for my heavy days, I think i'll be switching between my mooncup and ladycup for my light days. I just love the color though! & it is squishier compared to the others, i haven't trimmed the stem off because i don't think i'll need to due to the small size already. I'm excited to try it out next month.

& 2nd, My diva smells, oh noes. I always boil my cups after my period and that doesn't seem to be cutting it. So i'm trying the soak of vinegar & warm water. I guess I'll check on it in a few hours, I read that hydrogen peroxide is good too but i couldn't seem to find any around the house. I'm hoping that the vinegar will help with the staining tint as well.

I also purchased the diva wash with a coupon i used so it only cost like 5 bucks, anyways it smells very nice! It's very pleasant to use to wash down below, not irritating at all and I've found that it works nicely to help when i shave. yay =D
29 December 2008 @ 01:37 am
Not so bad for a failure
My experience. . . )

So, I have a few questions.  Is there anyone else out there whose cup rides so high that it cannot be reached?  How do you get it out if you can't break the suction (because no part of the "body" of the cup is within reach and the stem can just barely be touched)?  How long does it take you to remove your cup?  Does the "riding up" mean I got the wrong size/model of cup?    Any help at all would be appreciated.  Also, has anyone else noticed a lopsided cervix (as in, it's off to one side)?  If you've seen a doctor about it, I'd be interested in knowing if it's a big deal or not. 

I'm considering getting a Diva, since it's the longest cup, and my experience with the Lunette leaves me unafraid of the "bigger" small cups, and it's on a ridiculous sale ($14 on iherb.com) until the end of the year.  What would you do?  Is it worth buying a new cup, or should I settle for just using the Lunette "part-time"?  It's inconvenient enough that I will not be using the cup "full-time"; I will probably use the cup when something internal is necessary, like sports or tight clothes, or if I want less messy outercourse during my period, but the rest of the time, I'll stick with my cloth pads.  Anyway, I'm not sure if it's worth investing more in this, or if it's unlikely that anything will change for the better by switching cups (or if the Diva is even a sensible option considering the problem), so if you have an opinion on what I should do, please feel free to let me know before the New Year (when the iherb.com offer ends).  Thanks in advance!  This community is awesome!
28 December 2008 @ 02:35 pm
Stiiiiiiiinky
Okay, I'm at my wits end on what to do about the smell in my cup. I've tried the hydrogen peroxide soak over night, I tried the alcohol rub, tried leaving it out in the sun for a bit and I just tried boiling with white vinegar and NOTHING is helping!!! .. As a last resort I'm trying the newspaper stuffing but I'm a bit skeptical =\
I can't get any tea tree oil over here, and I've seen alot of people recommend that for the smell. Can anyone recommend ANYTHING else I can do to get rid of it.. It's come to a point where it smells quite putrid sometimes and I'm feeling a bit icky on using it for my next cycle..
 
 
Current Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
01 May 2008 @ 11:21 pm
Smelly cup??
Ohkay, so this morning I realized that I hadn't emptied out my cup for like 2 days and that my period had probably been finished for at least a day. When I did take it out, it smelled positively horrible. Like spoiled milk or rotting flesh or something. Completely unpleasant, to say the least. I've heard of this happening to other people, who solved it with complicated baking soda/vinegar/tea tree oil/whathaveyou mixtures, but I live in a dorm, and my cleaning solutions are, well, limited.

So, in desperation, I ripped off a corner of the New York Times that I had been reading earlier, and crumpled it up and stuffed it inside of my cup and put it back in its pouch and hoped that my roommate wouldn't smell the smell and investigate.

I just did a smell-test (about 12 hours later), and it is wonderful again! It's got that new-cup smell and I am happy. There's a little bit of ink residue that I'm hoping will go away when I get a chance to boil it this weekend, but I just wanted to let you guys know that if your cup is stinky, newspaper seems to work like a charm! =)
20 April 2008 @ 10:09 am
Hello again ladies, and various uterus-enabled people who might identify otherwise.
I've begun my first period using a cup, and um, I've noticed it smells funny, a sweet smell kinda like honey (note I say 'sweet', not 'pleasant'). I only noticed it in the last two empties, when my flow changed from the blood-tinged yellow liquid it started as to something that somewhat resembles blood (the change in flow fits with my observations with pads). It doesn't resemble the scent of Lunette washing liquid at all, and that and water is all I've been using. I have been using a glycerine-based lube even though somebody advised against in the comments of my last entry, as I kinda need it and haven't been able to get back to the shops to get a different one, but it isn't scented, and even pure glycerine doesn't smell.
Is this normal, and I only think it's weird because I'm used to the rather different smell of oxidised menstrual flow, or is this something I might need to pay attention to?
10 April 2008 @ 12:26 am
stanky cup....
so, after much time of not posting...  this month's cycle, i found myself with a stinky cup.  it reeked when i took it out during my shower yesterday to clean...  i briefly remembered something about vinegar and after reading, here is what i did to get rid of the smell.

i put some white vinegar, sea salt, and water into a pot.  Just a splash of vinegar would do, not too much, you don't want your cup to smell like vinegar do you?  after it boiled i put the cup in and kept an eye on it.  i think i let it boil for 10 minutes, occasionally moving the cup so it won't melt on me.

afterwards, i put some excessive amounts of baking soda into a cup and poured in some of the hot water and put the cup in.  swished it around and let it sit.  i added more baking soda and waited some more.  after 5-10 minutes, i took it out and rinsed it.  the baking soda made it feel gritty..  then... sniffed.

it smelled pleasant.  actually, the pleasant smell could be the soap i used after i took the cup out but the scent of whatever bacteria overpowered the floral scent of dial.  but after 'killing' off the smelly bacteria, the floral scent was able to come through.

yep, hope i was able to help someone :)

hot water, salt, vinegar, and baking soda.  i also contemplated rubbing alcohol if the smell didn't go away.  but maybe next time :)
29 February 2008 @ 02:08 pm
smell question
I left my cup (Diva) in for two days (just didn't have a chance to take it out; not to be gross but I haven't even had time for a BM) and when I took it out this morning, it smelled like hard-boiled eggs. I boiled it, but the smell is still there. Does this mean it can't be disinfected?
17 February 2008 @ 02:05 pm
First period and a smelly cup
I just got over my first period with the mooncup UK. It was a learning experience that's for sure! I had to wear a pad for the first two days because I was so heavy that I would leak. But using one pad a day as opposed to 15 is still pretty sweet. The last 3 days I didn't need to use a pad at all as I was really light.

The main problem I had with using pads was the smell. My last two or three days are usually really stinky. With the cup I didn't have to worry about it. I didn't stink at all which was really nice. But now I have a problem. My cup smells bad.

I tried to wash it with water but can't get the smell to go away. I'm going to search the memories and tags for suggestions on what to clean it with. I think I've read that Dr. Bronners is really good though I don't know where to buy some around here. I'm thinking of washing it with baking soda and water. I know that baking soda is a good deodorizor as well as a good cleanser. Any suggestions that I might not find in the memories?

EDIT: The hydrogen peroxide and water solution worked great. Thanks everyone!
28 January 2008 @ 08:37 pm
do any of you have issues with this?

... a smelly cup? i don't know whats causing it or if its just my pH levels or something, but have any of you had problems with this? did you find out what the cause of it was?
and while i'm at it i'll ask something else... a few pages back i posted on the differences on a divacup bought in june to one in october. when i insert the old divacup, it suctions right away, but when i insert the new one, it takes ages for it to suction. could the differences in the holes of the old and new be causing this? i dont know what it could be and i really want to get the new one to work..

30 December 2007 @ 11:58 pm
Three Questions...
1. I used my diva cup for my past cycle and it now smells like really really bad. I am not sure how to deal with it. I let it sit up in my bathroom for like a few days to see if it would air out and that's not helping. I need (or would like) a quick way to clean it. Would using vinegar and baking soda together work ok, or could that damage the cup? Even though I have been using my cup for a year, this is the first time it's happened and I think it's the result of having my cup in for almost 24 hours after my period ended thanks to having a sick baby.

2. I'm having the worse periods ever since a few months ago. Last month I had nausea and vomiting, as well as bad back pain during my period but just assumed I also had the flu. Well this month, the same thing happened again only luckily I didn't puke but I had the worse headache, back pain, nausea and was very achy. I actually just thought I was getting the flu that day, until I went into the bathroom and discovered my period had started. The blood also looks different and is more red and clotting more then when I got my periods in the past. I had really bad periods when I was younger, but between being 15 and even after my daughter was born, at 19 my periods were relatively mild. I missed a couple of periods, which I assumed was because I started nursing my daughter more often and stopped supplementing with formula and since my periods returned 3 months ago they have just been really really bad. Is it normal to have back pain and feel sick during that time of the month? Has anyone else experienced this? I feel like I am experiencing labor pains and morning sickness all in one.

3. Lastly, I think I am having mild yeast infections all the time. I rarely have any kind of fluid issue, but just...discomfort. I've heard of taking probiotics or eating probiotic foods to help, I kind of hate yogurt though. Would raw milk/cheese help? What about garlic supplements? I've also heard of people putting yogurt in their diva cups to cure yeast infections. Does that actually work?
23 November 2007 @ 02:08 am
the verdict on cleaning (for smells and stains)?
so i read a lot of posts about cleaning solutions for the diva cup, and there seems to be a bit of controversy. from what i gathered,

- boiling is not recommended by the diva cup company; a lot of people do it, though it's not absolutely necessary.*
- hydrogen peroxide is effective for getting rid of stains and smells, but will it harm the silicone?
- rubbing alcohol won't harm the silicone, but does it get rid of stains and smells?

i'm living in a college dorm, so i'd rather not boil it if i have to. hydrogen peroxide vs isopropyl alcohol? is there better 'cure-all' solution for this thing?

thanks in advance!

*edit: apparently, boiling is recommended by the diva cup company. o.O one of the posts i read mentioned that it wasn't.
06 November 2007 @ 07:34 am
How Long To Soak the Cup for Cleaning?

i just joined this group today after doing a search for cleaning the diva cup. mine has always had an unpleasant smell after use. i've always washed it with hot water and soap, sometimes antibacterial soap, sometimes the diva wash. today, after reading a number of posts in this group, i boiled it for 5 minutes, then put it in a container and covered it with apple cider vinegar. i'm probably going to do a full-out assault with hydrogen peroxide and a followup sprinkling with baking soda after that if the smell isn't gone. i don't have a yeast infection, and i do wonder if bacteria is the culprit, but regardless, i'm hoping to find a routine for cleaning the works at getting the smell out, the staining being secondary. 

how long do people soak the cup in various solutions of choice? 

thanks!

-t

25 September 2007 @ 02:32 pm
itch/soreness & stinky cup questions
I've been using my Diva Cup for a few cycles now (I think it is 4 or 5, but I can't exactly remember!) and I've never had any problems. I've never had leaking or any insertion/removal problems. It's been amazing. I love my cup more than I ever though I could love a menstrual product. :)

However, this period has been a bit frustrating. It's more a problem with me than with my cup. I hadn't been able to clean it properly the first few days, and I also didn't have any lube available. I think this caused some sort of irritation in my vagina, and I'm a bit concerned. It's been sort of itchy and sore for the past few days. I properly cleaned it, and have been cleaning it each time I change it (2-3 times a day) and the itchiness has reduced greatly, but the soreness is still there. For reference, I use Cetaphil face cleanser to wash it. Anyway, I'm wondering if this soreness is abnormal. It feels almost as if I had rough sex and then got my period... which, didn't happen. It's getting better now that I'm back to using lube, but at the same time, it still hurts. Will it go away when I stop using the cup? I'll be done with my period in a day or so, so I can endure it until then if that's all it is. Has anyone else had soreness like this?

My second question is: I've noticed a bit of a funky smell on my cup... It sort of smells like a moldy towel. It's very faint. I boil it in diluted hydrogen peroxide at the end of my period. I was thinking of using tea tree oil instead (I'm nearly out of hydrogen peroxide), in hopes that this would get rid of the funky smell. Has anyone else had a stinky cup? Did you use anything to get rid of the stink? Also... if you've used tea tree oil, how much did you use? I read to use one or two drops in water, but in how much water? How long do you soak it for?

Thanks for your help!
19 August 2007 @ 05:05 pm
strange smell

I remember others posted also noticing a strange smell when using the menstrual cup.  Did anyone figure out what it was?

Just finishing 3rd cycle, almost getting it right!  I have ordered a Lunette though as the Mooncup UK isn't large enough for heavy days.  Thanks to all for help!