shalini's alter ego ([info]kabutar) wrote in [info]martial_artists,
@ 2008-09-28 09:36:00
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Advice on knees
xposted to [info]girlfighters, apologies :)

Greetings all :)

I just started Kali, which I've wanted to do for ages, but have been considering another empty hand style as well (I know Kali trains empty hand too). I was looking at TKD, hapkido, JKD, or ninjutsu, but am a bit wary because I very nearly blew a knee this year and don't want to risk actually ripping it up since the recovery process has been long. For that reason I'm assuming TKD wouldn't be my best option, but how would the other three styles compare? i.e. - which would have the least risk of injury to knees?

On a slightly different note... I'm not TOO big on grappling/throws, though I know they're a component of all three, so how do the three MMAs compare in that regard?

Hmm, this might be a bit of a conundrum, come to think of it, but let's see...

Thanks :)

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[info]tylik
2008-09-28 05:02 pm UTC (link)
A couple of things here -

One way to avoid knee injury is to avoid doing things that put stress on your knees. I've noticed, though, that a lot of the arts that don't do a lot of lower stance work seem to have higher rates of knee surgery / knee replacement among people who have been practicing for a long time. My personal experience is that when I went into modern wushu - which has a reputation for chewing up and spitting out knees - with prior knee problems, I hurt a lot for the first six months, and after that my knees were in better shape than they've ever been. I developed a lot of muscle, it stabilized my knees, and now my knees are happier. Generally this seems to be a good idea.

So... for the short term, yeah, avoid stuff that puts a lot of stress on your knees. And if you're going to push things, get some kind of support for your knees - there are all kinds of wraps and braces that will help (I had quite the collection those first six months of wushu). But spend a lot of time in horse stance, and slowly moving in and out of low stances to build strength. It likely won't be fun, but with care it will be easy to avoid injury, and meanwhile you can work on getting your knees to the point where they won't be so vulnerable to harm.

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[info]kabutar
2008-09-28 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the advice. :) I'm a little unclear on what you mean though - are you suggesting to do arts with lower stance work in order to strengthen the knees, while the higher stance arts seem to injure knees more?

I'm assuming wushu is low stance - but if you wouldn't mind giving me some other examples of low/high stance arts, it'd be much appreciated! :)

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[info]tylik
2008-09-28 05:57 pm UTC (link)
Sorry - I shouldn't write when sleep deprived. I'll try to be more clear.

For most parts of the body, but knees in particular, if you have injured X, people will often tell you to avoid anything that puts stress on X. However, if you do that, X will tend to be weak, and more subject to further injury if you do anything that stresses it. So better to really work on strengthening X (in this case your knees) in a careful controlled fashion, while taking short term steps to avoid injury until the strength and stability is there.

Wushu does a lot of low stances. And you'd probably want to be very careful with something like that - I was lucky that my master was both exceptionally good and had a background in physiology. Chen Taiji, my primary art, emphasizes low stances and is slower and more controlled about training them. I've known some Aikido dojos where an awful lot of the seniors have had knee surgery, on the other hand. I suspect that this was because they sat in seiza a lot, which can over stretch and destabilize the knee if you aren't building strength to counter-balance that tendency, and didn't spend a lot of time in low stances to develop strength... but then did small amounts of very intensive low stance work which stressed the hell out of their knees.

I don't think it's necessarily which art as much as how you train. I know a lot of people will say that training in low stances is useless because that's not where you fight. Personally, this just doesn't match with my experience - I use low stances in sparring, some, and use the strength and resilience I've gained in those low stances a lot. But whatever you do - make sure you're doing things that strengthen and help stabilize your knees. (Low stance training has been better for me than anything else for this.) Meanwhile, be careful for the short term doing things that stress your knees (including low stance work done quickly or with high impact) and consider some kind of support if you are going to be doing that kind of work.

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[info]kaskazi
2008-09-28 08:13 pm UTC (link)
I'll second that. When I trained with Kancho Soeno in Japan he told me that Kihon with low stances was very important for full contact kumite because it built up the muscles that normal exercises don't reach. He also recommended the standard 'ski' exercises of putting your back to a wall and lowering the body until the knees are at 90 degrees. This is a useful exercises as you can slowly build up the time in the stance in controlled way. The other thing of course is to ensure that you work on complementary muscles and stretching at the same time.

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[info]tylik
2008-09-28 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Agree on both points - one minor refinement, though: while that's an excellent exercise, any time you do that kind of supported strengthening you'll tend to build up the large muscles, and miss the smaller stabilizers. So it's a great place to start, but doing stuff away from the wall, and balance stances are important too.

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[info]kaskazi
2008-09-28 08:17 pm UTC (link)
BTW, I've added you, hope that is OK, been meaning to do it for ages actually as I like your comments in this community.

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[info]tylik
2008-09-28 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Why, thank you. I will add you back. (Though I warn you, my blog is weird and random, and while I do train a lot, I often don't post much about it except in passing.)

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[info]kaskazi
2008-09-28 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Well, journals are usually pretty random (mine certainly is) and training isn't all about press ups! :)

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[info]kabutar
2008-09-29 05:29 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the clarification. :) That does help quite a lot - I'll definitely keep a watch for that :)

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[info]wishmaster_ein
2008-09-28 05:22 pm UTC (link)
Jeet Kune Do might be a good thing for you then. In my opinion, everyone should be well rounded. So consider working on your grappling more if it's something your not comfortable with.

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[info]kabutar
2008-09-28 05:33 pm UTC (link)
Noted. Uh, I feel a bit silly being confused slightly by both comments to this post, but are you suggesting I do JKD in order to work more on grappling, or because it has less of an emphasis on grappling? alternatively, how does it compare to ninjitsu in terms of grappling/potential of injury? it's really hard for me to tell just from reading, lol.

thanks :)

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[info]wishmaster_ein
2008-09-29 05:07 am UTC (link)
Whoops! I mistated a little. I meant to say go for JKD if you don't want to grapple too much. But I suggested that you try to practice it more on the side so that it will make you more rounded as a martial artist. I felt the same way about grappling but I grew to like it.
When it comes to ninjutsu I have no clue. I have yet to see a ninjutsu school around me. Another reason why I say JKD should be a good bet is that there is more work with your hands then your feet, minimal stress on the legs. And TKD is heavy with stances and conditioning, so avoid that if possible.

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[info]kabutar
2008-09-29 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Ah fair enough. I'll keep that in mind :)

Re TKD - funnily it wasn't really the stances/conditioning that worried me (as was said above that may actually be good for the knees in a way) but more the mistakes, ie, doing a spin kick and forgetting to pivot on the ground leg and tearing things, or landing wrong, etc. I really don't want anymore knee problems, can you tell? :P

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[info]wishmaster_ein
2008-09-30 06:06 am UTC (link)
No I sure can't, let me get back to you. lol
If you want to talk about bad landings, I've got one.
I tried to do an aerial with hook kicks and land in the splits. Well, too much spin, not enough air. Landed too soon and didn't brace for it. But that's Caipoera and XMA. Just go with what's good. It's your decision in the end anyways.

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[info]sunshaker
2008-09-28 05:50 pm UTC (link)
I wouldn't call Hapkido or Ninjutsu Mixed Martial Arts (a combination of two or more styles often focusing on different aspects of the fighting), but that is my personal take on it (probably some of the practitioners of those arts would agree). I will say that they are complete or semi-complete arts (ones that cover some or all aspects of striking, throwing, clinch work, grappling, weapons, and movement) which gives them higher marks in my book. Caution some of these schools will be highly steeped in tradition (very formal, one way of doing things, etc).

Not being a practitioner of JKD I can only relay what I've read (though I've read the books written by Bruce Lee). JKD depends greatly on the instructor and the camp he falls into (those who only practice the art that Bruce Lee did (Original or Jun Fan JKD branch) or those that take what he did and continue to adapt it by adding new stuff (JKD Concepts branch). The Jun Fan branch will have very little in the way of grappling and throws, the Concepts branch is kind of random (depending on the instructor(s) and what arts he has studied and what interests him) there may or may not be throws and grappling. In practice most JKD clubs will be somewhere in the middle and not on either end of the extremes presented above.

That all said if you are doing throws and are having to "carry" your opponents weight and putting undo stress on your knees, back or other joints, you are doing something wrong. One of the most important things I learned taking Judo is that if doing a throw takes effort or puts strain on you in some way you are doing it wrong, a proper throw is done without effort or strain.

Grappling should not hurt your knees at all, unless your training partner is being a prick (and if the school is filled with pricks it is time for a new school). Most injuries in grappling come from inexperienced people trying to do something they don't know how to do or people trying to be tough and not tapping fast enough. As long as your instructor and training partners know that you have a problem with (insert body part of choice) they will avoid anything that could hurt it. I'm training on a messed up elbow right now and it is fine and safe (but then my school has no pricks in it).

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[info]lordreiko
2008-09-29 03:54 pm UTC (link)
I agree with sunshaker; proper grappling shouldn't put too much stress on your knees, at least not while you're performing the technique on someone else. If you're the uke and having the technique done TO you, that's a different story and you'll obviously want to make sure your teacher and training partner are aware of your knee issues. There are some variations on throws that involve "picking up" an opponent, but typically they're done in a way that doesn't involve you actually holding them up or anything; it's more about using momentum and proper body movement to do the work for you.

I practice traditional Japanese jujutsu , which is very similar to modern Judo (actually the precursor to it), and I have never had any knee issues (I've been training for almost 2 years now). My school's primary art is Ninpo, which is also a precursor to jujutsu, so ninpo/ninjutsu contains quite a few grappling/throwing techniques, though it's certainly not all there is to it.

Hope that helps.

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[info]kabutar
2008-09-29 05:32 pm UTC (link)
That does help - thanks! :) I'm going to go check out some schools I think and see how things look.

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[info]kabutar
2008-09-29 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the detailed response and thoughts. :)

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