she with the box full of time and space ([info]rasielle) wrote in [info]manga_talk,
@ 2008-07-02 19:45:00
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Entry tags:essay, open_discussion

Rape in Shoujo Manga
Hello! New member here. ^^ Just want to say that I love the depth and thought all of you put into your questions and answers, and I love manga and discussing it, so it seems this would be a good place to be.

I've been watching anime for a couple of years now but reading manga for only a number of months. Needless to say, there are some notable storytelling differences between the two media, not the least of which is how sexually explicit a series can be on-paper versus onscreen - so the deeper I delved into manga, the quicker I was sucker-punched by *points to the subject title* that aforementioned notable difference.



(Note: I'm also including yaoi when I say "shoujo manga", by the way! I am probably not correct in doing this, but I'm referring to the elements both genres share and are primarily found in shoujo.)

This is not to say there isn't rape in anime either, certainly not - but it's definitely not as easy to find as it is in shoujo manga. I've read enough titles to notice that it's not unusual for the offense to be easily forgiven, justified as some awfully warped expression of love, or in other ways slipped noiselessly under the mangaka's moral radar. They aren't isolated incidents, either; rather, it's a trend.

"Personally, I don't care how much of a trend it is; if I see it, I'm quitting the series." This was once an easy conclusion to make. But!

The trend comes with a spectrum. I've found instances of "Rape is Love" (as TVTropes puts it) in both crappy series and series that are otherwise very wonderful and not demeaning about its female characters in any other way. This trope isn't something against which I can measure a series' worth anymore. Instead, as a reader, I am torn: the mangakas' morals come into question, and so do the genre's, and then so do my own.

The typical shoujo rape case is easy to dismiss, no question about it. When I say this, I mean something along these lines: girl/girl-boy and boy in a relationship, boy is too horny, girl/girl-boy is too weak, rape ensues, girl-boy is tearfully upset but apparently not enough so to break off the sexual relationship. My hatred for this case is not one I would ever, ever doubt.

So what makes a conflicting rape case, apart from a series' otherwise feminist-positive nature? From my experience:


  • one that isn't a cheap catalyst for the couple's sexual relationship.
    (Example: the two characters aren't sexual after the incident at all.)

  • one that is initially agreed to be consensual/partially consensual.

  • one that isn't a culmination of the heroine's submissiveness/shyness/impreparation/whatever.
    It isn't representative of any imbalance of authority in their relationship either. Rather, it's the author's method merely to explore the characters' (particularly the rapist's) rather skewed psychological states.


  • You can probably tell that the (one) case I have in mind is deeply psychological, with some complicated circumstances tied to it. (*points at number 2, which honestly I am still shaky about including*)

    For anyone feeling adventurous and curious about the series I'm referring to, it's Please Save My Earth, and I'm talking about Mokuren and Shion and his regrettable loss of control. Their deal to sleep together wasn't even part of their developing romantic relationship in the first place, despite its massive impact; it was under the pretense of busting him out of confinement, whereas their mutual romantic affection was incidental. The fact that Shion's actions descended into rape are evidence of his seriously messed up psyche and resentment against Mokuren's kind, not just a gross exaggeration of his affection.

    Despite being rape, it doesn't undermine nor contradict Mokuren's strength as a woman, or her control over their relationship, nor does her Kiche (which symbolizes her innocence) disappear. The act of rape was a manifestation of Shion's own personal demons, and what he thought was an act against "the Sarjalim [god] who blessed everyone but him" rather than Mokuren, the woman he loves. It wasn't about exerting his intentions as a male over her resistance as a female; it was, however, an explosion against everything else Shion has ever hated. This is not any better than harming Mokuren in the present, but viewed in this light at least it is not counter-feminist.


    I'm not asking if the action is forgiveable - I'm a teenage girl, how can I - but is the story? If the situation is too complicated for it, can we still look at the instance of rape and pin it as counter-feminist when the relationship continues?

    Presently, I've determined to swallow the bile, continue reading past these incidents, and form conclusions with the rest of the characters' circumstances in mind, instead of closing my mind because of the instance by itself. Nonetheless, if I like the series, there's too much risk I'll subconsciously rationalize the instance of rape and forget the larger picture: it's still rape. In fact, when I read the above listed, I feel like that is exactly what I am doing.

    How do the rest of you react to any conflicting rape cases? Do any of you believe that such a case (in manga) isn't possible? If it fits the listed criteria, is it still counter-feminist or can it be treated just as another instance of gritty psychological exploration? Do you have a different criteria for what might be a conflicting rape case? Am I a terrible female for posting something like this?

    And a question for the mods: What's your spoiler policy? I would like to provide the title of the manga I based my questions on (if not here, then in the comments), but it'd result in awful spoilers for anyone still reading the series. Some info: it's an old title, long-finished, but also quite popular, so there's a chance it still has new readers.

    Anyway, I look forward to your insights and hope posting something like this isn't too heavy-handed. ^^;; If the whole first-impressions thing is right, then I'm sunk.



    (Post a new comment)


    [info]telophase
    2008-07-03 02:43 am UTC (link)
    Hmmm... How about using spoiler code, then, if you're unsure?

    Just replace the "[" and "]" with "<" and ">"

    [span style="color:#000000;background-color:#000000;"]your text here[/span]

    That'll produce something you need to highlight to read:

    Woo, spoilers!

    (If you're not using the HTML/Code view to post to LJ, you may need to do so to get the spoiler code to work properly)

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    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-03 03:15 am UTC (link)
    Ahh, thank you! I thought of this but refrained because it sort of interrupts the post with chunks of all-black or all-white and ruins the aesthetics. If you're okay with it, though, then it's perfect.

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    [info]meganbmoore
    2008-07-03 03:22 am UTC (link)
    Better to mess up the aesthetics and help illustrate your point than worry about not being as clear as you want to be and avoid them.

    (Which is not to say you weren't clear, but it's usually easier.)

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-03 03:33 am UTC (link)
    You're right. Not giving the title of that series was seriously bothering me, since I'm positive that readers doubtful of that "conflicting rape case" would understand exactly what I mean if they knew the title.

    *runs off to aesthetically ruin the post, mwaha*

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]telophase
    2008-07-03 03:39 am UTC (link)
    Yeah, I've got no problem with it. :D

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]meganbmoore
    2008-07-03 02:51 am UTC (link)
    This is an interesting subject, and probably a large part of why I tend to gravitate more towards shounen, and be very leery of shoujo. Usually, if the shoujo starts even going into the "he wants sex but she's not ready" territory, I'm packing up my bags.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-03 03:11 am UTC (link)
    Ooooh man, I know what you mean. Thing is, the series I had in mind was nothing like that - yes, it was shoujo, but the two leads weren't even in a preestablished relationship but more like cats and dogs, butting heads. (... it's complicated...)

    But I still love that series. It's honestly the only case I had in mind when I wrote this, though I am aware that it's probably not the only one of its kind. It's the science-fiction-y kind of shoujo that's only part of the genre because of the love octagon and emphasis on feelings, high school girls notwithstanding.

    Hmmm. Maybe it's actually an anomaly and I won't miss anything if I just bow out of the genre for a while? *shrugs*

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]fusakugyoku
    2008-07-03 03:37 am UTC (link)
    I read a TON of shoujo smut-- not because I like it (I don't), but because I pick up almost every shoujo manga I can find, and unfortunately, a ton of it is smut crap (and not-smut crap). I am willing to go through mediocre series to find something good.

    So I will say that I've read a lot of shoujo manga rape cases.

    I have NEVER seen one that portrayed the sex positively and wasn't completely retarded. Traumatic rape scenes can be powerful and compelling, but whenever the rape develops into love (or has the potential to do so), it's always terribly written. It's ALWAYS because the girl is too weak, she justifies it because she really "loves" the guy, or (worst of all, in my opinion), she concludes that she enjoyed it, so it must be love.

    I have no problem with media showing sex and rape, but to give young girls the message that "as long as it feels good, it's OK" is completely twisted. Rape victims in real life may have felt sexual pleasure at the experience, but it's insulting to tell them that they really love their assailant because of that.

    That, and the girl is always a spineless lovestruck wimp with no personality or flaws. Better role models plz.

    But that's my 2 cents.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-03 04:07 am UTC (link)
    I've read a bunch too and whenever it reached that point - where the girl/girly-boy is being coerced into sex or sexual acts by someone who's supposed to love her/him - I've dropped it. As a result, for the ones that dabble in rape, I've dropped them all except one.

    After some advice I finally named the title and, with it, the circumstances. What gets me about that instance and that manga is that the heroine wasn't weakened by the instance, despite continuing the relationship. (I don't think continuing the relationship, given their circumstances, is incompatible with strength or pride.) The way I interpreted it, the rape was not romantic in the least, since they hadn't even established a relationship beforehand - the sex was to bust him out of confinement, and the mutual affection was both unspoken and incidental.

    The rape wasn't an example of the man consciously exerting his lust over the woman, simply because it wasn't about lust or desire; he hated, however, what he thought she represented, so when he lost control it wasn't about Her the Person (since he did love her and fully expected her to hate him) but about everything else he had hated up to that point. Rather than hurting her, the man was convinced he was "hurting the Sarjalim [god] who blessed everyone but him", and the fact that he was using her body as a medium didn't make a difference. It was a manifestation of his own demons and darkness, not about possessing her as a woman - just purely a psychological explosion of sorts, without gender or romance factoring in the least.

    When it was over, she forgave him not because she liked it (they didn't even sleep together afterwards) but because she understood it for what it was. I DON'T agree with her, but I have to say - hers was certainly not an act of weakness.

    Not like his act of hate is any better than hurting Her the Person in the present, but nonetheless - it's finally not about (hurting) feminism.

    But yes, so far, it's the only exception I've come across and this post is to gear myself up for any other exceptions I encounter in the future, for fear that I'll close myself to possibilities. From your comment, though, I can tell that maybe I should drop those expectations. ^^;;

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]cetriya
    2008-07-03 03:37 am UTC (link)
    I know how you feel so a lot of times I dont bother with shoujo. And yes I do keep a sort of artist "black list" when I can clearly tell this artist realy dont care.

    I was reading Zetmen (I think a seinen series) and there was a rape arc. No dismiss about it. She wasn't happy with her self (lots of other stuff happend) the guy she likes knows about it (lots of other stuff happen) even so she was strong in other ways and the guy noticed it (other stuff happen including her losing her memory of the incident) but the guy ends up asking her out cause he loves her strength and he's determined to protect her "this time".

    Though I skipped most of this arc since well it was ment for the guys that like sex instead of just action (which is what the rest of the story is) and didnt realy help except to build the characters. However, this is why I love this artist. I have other books from the same artists. the females and males of the story interacts in a way that doesnt degrades woman (except to appease the editor).

    If you do have time to read an action series then read it. if you want to skip that paticualr arch, it starts when the guy's fan club is invited to a mystrious party.

    (typos uncorrected)

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-04 03:59 am UTC (link)
    even so she was strong in other ways

    *nods* Definitely central to a rape case in manga that's actually thought-out: a strong heroine. Almost every time I stumble upon this kind of incident - an otherwise strong heroine forgiving her rapist - I count it as a sign of weakness, but for one series (the one I had in mind when I wrote the post) I did consider that her decision to forgive the rape exhibited strength instead - not to say I agree with it, but she was still a strong heroine and so I take note of that series as a prominent exception.

    Thank you for the recommendation! I'll look into the series and try to forget everything you've told me about it so far. XP

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    [info]cetriya
    2008-07-04 04:04 am UTC (link)
    trust me I didnt tell you anything of it at all ^^

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    [info]lanisatu
    2008-07-03 03:40 am UTC (link)
    I think that the fact that what you're talking about makes you concerned is a good thing, and I don't think you're in danger of rationalizing a rape in the story you mention simply because you continue reading it.

    However, I think everyone needs to decide for themself what they feel is acceptable or not acceptable in their entertainment. While there's often a flimsy "reason" for the actions of the rapist; I don't think I could ever continue following a series that condones rape. I feel very strongly about a person's right to consent, and I would feel sick.

    There was a manga series I read (Mars) that featured a character who was raped by her step-father. I think that the way the issue was dealt with in the story encouraged readers to think about what rights the protagonist had and question the decisions of the protagonist and her mother. Interestingly, the protagonist had a boyfriend who had a reputation for sleeping around before they started dating. And although he made it very clear that he wanted to have sex with her, he never forced himself on her.

    I don't think that rape is an issue that's drastically more common in shoujo, but I can see why it comes up. The victims tend to be girls, so it's understandable to raise the issue in media geared toward girls, so that they are aware of and think about the issue.

    There was a live-action TV series I used to watch, Veronica Mars. The protagonist recalls her own rape in the pilot, and the issue is re-visited a few times. Again, I think that the story was meant to make you think about the issues. Why didn't she say anything to certain people? Why did certain people react in certain ways? And how did it change her? I found Veronica to be a very angry girl at the beginning of the series, trying very hard to pretend that it was best to hide what had happened, after an insensitive reaction by someone in a position of authority. She eventually softened and came to accept the fact that it happened, but whenever the issue arose again -- she had difficulty being her regular, logical self.

    I won't stop reading a series if there is a rape scene, but the way the issue is dealt with will influence whether or not I want to continue reading that series or any other work by that creator.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-03 04:23 am UTC (link)
    See, I agree with you completely. Which is why I feel not a little embarassed by this post. ^^;; I also find it very distasteful when the rape is either overlooked or forgiven in a manner that really doesn't send a very female-empowering message, but I thought that in that specific case I could make an exception, for all the reasons I put in my comment to [info]fusakugyoku. Your comment reminds me, though, that even if the issue of rape isn't about sex at all, and is merely one disconcertingly controversial character exploration, it still needs to be addressed afterwards for what it is and learned from in some shape or form.

    I keep thinking of that single "conflicting rape scene" I mentioned as an "act of hate", and as an act of hate it was resolved quite well in the story. But as a rape, which despite the million motives it physically and undeniably was, I don't think it was resolved well at all. I don't even personally agree with the heroine's decision - but this isn't to say it wasn't a strong one. It was. But what the physical act was was almost skirted around afterward, which I now find extremely disappointing.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


    [info]lanisatu
    2008-07-03 05:05 am UTC (link)
    Rape isn't about sex or romance. It's about control and power. That's a very important distinction to make.

    The two series I mentioned featured very different characters, but they both had a very clear feeling of powerlessness after the fact. They also both felt betrayed by people they should be able to trust who didn't seem to appreciate the weight of the issue.

    I think that in the manga series, the mother's decision was somewhat understandable due to her situation; but I very much disagreed with it. But for Veronica; the person who should have offered assistance when she went to report the crime dismissed her, for selfish reasons, despite the fact that it was his job to help her. That one action made me despise his character. His only interest was to assert his power over her, victimizing her again.

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    [info]fusakugyoku
    2008-07-03 01:22 pm UTC (link)
    Hmmm, I wonder...

    (girl/she can be interchanges with uke male)
    In the shoujo manga that I've read, the rape is always linked to romance-- the girl has a crush (or alternatively absolutely loathes) a guy, he rapes her, (and in some cases, it's because he actually likes her ("I'll make you hate me so much that I'll be the only one you ever think about" isn't an uncommon line)), and then she falls deeper in love with him (but with some anger). In some ways, these manga glorify rape by TYING it to sex. Is it rape at all after that? Well, the sex is clearly non-consensual, so I would say yes, but I think that if in the real world, rape really isn't about sex or romance as [info]lanisatu says, then shoujo manga rape certainly isn't real world. Which er, goes without saying.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


    [info]lanisatu
    2008-07-03 10:29 pm UTC (link)
    I think that there can be a pretense that it's related to romance; but what I've heard about real-world scenarios makes it pretty clear to me that if the assaulter cared for the victim as they claim, they would never have forced themself on the victim. The assaulter is generally being stupid/ selfish/ or has a very animalistic urge to assert dominance.

    It is more common for a victim to know their attacker, and I've spoken with and heard of women who were raped by their boyfriends. Those victims seem to be the most likely to question whether it really was rape in the first place, particularly if they had a sexual relationship. And I don't think it's uncommon for the relationship to continue after the fact; but the victim is very much confused in that type of scenario. I think rape victims are often confused about what happened and what they should do. But I also think that knowing the attacker can add an extra level of confusion.

    I think we need more fiction that clearly says that even if you're romantically involved with the person -- it's still rape if you said "no." Any physical or romantic attraction is irrelevant.

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    [info]imeander
    2008-07-03 04:42 am UTC (link)
    I feel like we're not just talking about rape in shoujo/yaoi manga here (and its implication for morality and/or feminism), we're talking about realism in said manga by default, as well.

    Now, to me it seems obvious that the majority of these mangas aren't very realistic in most other ways, and almost everything is over-exaggerated or blown out of proportion or highlighted for effect, etc, both positive (the boy is the coolest! ever! in sports and intelligence and looks and everything!) and negative (but! he's such an asshole! and! he's cold/abusive/baaaaaad!). With or without rape, you have 'the asshole' for the seme or 'the boy' in 85% or more of the cases. So. To me, that changes the playing field a lot. The whole story is stylized. If you judge it by 'normal' moral standards, what's the point of reading it at all? Read something else. And most people do-- read shounen or just don't read manga-- because basically it is the way it is, y'know? And I feel like critiquing the genre stereotypes is valid in a meta-critique way (like, 'what does this mean?') but not in a comparative lit way ('how is it compared to X?').

    How I react to the rape scene depends on the story, period. If it's a more serious story, I have more serious expectations. If it's a fluffy porntastic piece, I expect porn, y'know? If it's a romance, I hope the seme/boy feels sorry and realizes he was an asshole. At worst, of course, he never does realize that and all is ignored entirely, in which case I really hope the uke really did want it (which makes it dub-con, at least). In most cases, the girl/uke does want it, when it's with the love interest, 'cause you also have the trope of the boy/seme rescuing the girl/uke from rape by nondesirable characters. This is so common it makes me roll my eyes every time, but it exists to show 'see, if it's reeeeeally unwanted, it's traumatic and awful', or something. Whatever, it's stupid shoujo manga, y'know?

    I feel like saying that 'shounen is more feminist', or even better in any way as a genre is too simplistic and ignores the fact that shounen has tons of other problems and objectifies females in totally other ways more suited for boys (hello, panty-shots? boob-shots? general fan-service, anyone? moe? etcetc?). I get sick of the fan-service for boys before I get sick of the fan-service for girls, and I think that's just a matter of preference rather than a matter of being feminist or not.

    It helps me personally to just not equate 'manga-rape' with realistic or real-life rape. It's just not the same unless the parallel is explicitly drawn. There's just soooooo~~oo~~~oo~~~o much non-realistic stuff about the tropes in shoujo, why pick on 'rape'? Y'know? What is realistic? Very little, in most mangas. Even good mangas. I mean. They're shoujo mangas. There's no need for moral angst :) These aren't even real people. They're idealized and objectified and Mary Sue'd and googly-eyed into oblivion.

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    [info]imeander
    2008-07-03 04:42 am UTC (link)


    Now, of course, PSME isn't such a series-- it's a great series-- but it's the exception; it's not a typical shoujo manga at all, really, even if it refers to some of its tropes. If a manga is good, it'll make up a realistic emotional scenario for its characters in regards to rape or any other plot-device, and if it's average or below, it'll just be stupid. You take what you can get, y'know? If I wanted to start talking about the stupid and offensive tropes in shoujo, I'd be here all day, but I'm sure there are also stupid tropes in shounen (or at least, they seem pretty stupid and repetitive and annoying to me). It definitely depends on what you like personally, all the way. And I don't think you need to rationalize the theoretical behavior at all-- just separate it from real life. This is just like your average kink-fic porn fanfiction-- I've seen tons of meta about how morally questionable it is and how maybe the writers are all freaks, and the answer is: don't like it, don't read it, but if you like it, that doesn't mean you condone what you're reading or get off on it in real life.

    Totally spineless ukes are annoying, but if they truly have no personality or ability to stand up for themselves then it's just a bad manga. It's that passive idiocy that gets to me, not the presence or absence of rape. And even then, I'll accept a range of passivity as long as there's some spark or cuteness to the character, haha, or at least if the seme/boy seems genuinely caring and not a cardboard asshole hottie. Cardboard hotties get old fast. But everyone has their pet peeves :>

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    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-04 03:49 am UTC (link)
    And I don't think you need to rationalize the theoretical behavior at all-- just separate it from real life.

    Despite my first response to your comment - this is... basically the answer I needed in one sentence. The clouds have parted and everything. Thank you very much for replying so meticulously.

    It's that passive idiocy that gets to me, not the presence or absence of rape.

    That too! So I guess the hypothetical rape incident wouldn't be, no matter how awful, the only turn-off responsible for that series being dropped.

    In regards to the typical uke thing, though, there are even exceptions there, too. In Gravitation, the uke is not normally a doormat or passive kind of character, but he just makes too many unreasonable (in my opinion) exceptions for his seme. Granted, his seme has some bona fide psychological issues, but his present self isn't incapable of decent judgment either. I didn't mind their dynamics in the anime adaptation because the rape incident just wasn't there; there, it was presented as consensual - and the uke didn't strike me as weak. The manga adaptation, with its handling of the rape incident, though, is a different story - and one I couldn't finish.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)

    PS
    [info]imeander
    2008-07-03 05:08 am UTC (link)
    Another note: if you want shoujo manga with minimum thorny-weird m/f issues, read fantasy-heavy shoujo instead of romance (or, um, smutty) shoujo. It won't guarantee 'success', but the more plot there is outside relationships, the more likely a manga is to be more reasonable/realistic (or at least less over-the-top) about them. There's lots of seriously good shoujo that is, uh, mostly 'morally normal' by Western standards, and they all have larger plots: Basara, PSME, Nana and/or Paradise Kiss, Merupuri, Revolutionary Girl Utena, etc. It's also the 'intelligent' shoujo written by good mangakas, by no coincidence :> There's some fantasy stuff that's a little more 'questionable' (or at least, more fan-servicey and/or immature) like 'Ayashi no Ceres', but still... there's tons of great shoujo (and shounen ai/yaoi) that never ventures near these themes because it doesn't do stereotypical romance tropes and rather tries to do something different. Because there's simply so much shoujo out there, it means you never have to read anything you don't like if you research the author and subject-matter first. Of course, even in PSME there's some 'questionable' realism (as there definitely is in Utena, which is super-stylized and Merupuri, which is super-cutified) but even if you want gritty emotional realism, there's yaoi & shoujo out there for you. Nana's pretty great in that regard.

    If you want more mature storylines and a more realistic approach while retaining a focus on feelings and relationships, try josei manga like 'Kimi wa Petto' or 'Himitsu', and pretty much anything by Shimizu Reiko.

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    Re: PS
    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-04 03:31 am UTC (link)
    Basara, PSME, Nana and/or Paradise Kiss, Merupuri, Revolutionary Girl Utena, etc.

    Whoa, I'm actually already a big fan of some of these - Basara, Please Save My Earth, and ParaKiss. As for Utena, I was watching the anime, but I stopped after a bit because it was sliding into fillers and it's hard to stay interested if you're barely sure of what's going on... I'm curious enough, though, to finish it. Just. Someday.

    Just have to say, I love Basara and not enough people read/rec/talk about it in general. I was about five levels of happy to see the title here, particularly among other commendable shoujo. *nonetheless, hasn't finished the series, sob*

    I do read a little josei (not enough, though) but I'm unfamiliar with those titles. Thank you!

    Where would Fushigi Yuugi fall? I don't know much about it, but I'm assuming it falls in with Ayashi no Ceres.

    Again, thank you for the very insightful recommendations! It's so attentive. O_O And I certainly was on the verge of asking for shoujo recs that don't venture into dubious realism. Since I'm in many ways a beginning manga reader (a lot of the manga I've read so far are the adaptations of anime I've liked), I still work solely on recs, and I'm quickly finding that a lot of them just don't work for me - not Gravitation, not Love Mode, not even Loveless. (The last is mostly a matter of taste, as I'm sure it's not "bad" - but the extents of its unconventionality are no secret.)

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    Re: PS
    [info]imeander
    2008-07-04 04:04 am UTC (link)
    Hahah, beware, I'm a black hole of recs. Start asking me for recs and I'll talk your ear off :D :D

    People who rec stuff like Gravi and Love Mode are the sort of people who're rec Harry Potter and Twilight if you ask them for fantasy or YA books. I mean, I'm an HP fan, but it's certainly not the most shining example of the genre, just the most popular. Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good :> So I'd recommend you do some research on whatever title is recced to you-- just google it and see what it's about, at least, haha. Gravi is a total waste-dump of old-school BL, hahaha, it's like the cliche of all cliches, the house of horrors, basically, haha. If enjoyed, you have to be in the proper fangirly state of mind. Prepare to turn of your brain and go 'SQUEEEEE, OMG YUKI IS SOOOO~~ COOOOL~~~~' etc. Love Mode's a bit more brain-intensive; it's less like a cartoon and more like a daytime soap :D :D Loveless is uhhh of that questionable genre of semi-BL cutesy epics-- like Kyou Kara Maou or Princess Princess. Ugh :P

    Well, our tastes seem close enough; be sure your taste at least vaguely match before you take recs from people is my main advice :> Basara and PSME are my two all-time favorite shoujos (BASARAAAAAAAAAA), though I've only seen the anime for PSME, it influenced my whole aesthetic for years now. Umm I also love Hana Yori Dango (slight rape issues, no actual... thing; anyway, Tsukasa is adorable and alfjksalfkjas yeah), Kodomo no Omocha (anime version is insane but hilarious and adorable) for fangirly glee, Fruits Basket for some combo of fangirly glee and story/plot-love, Lovely Complex for cute and recent and Midnight Secretary for recent smutty, cute and vampire hottie(s). There's really so much, I'm just restraining myself.

    Oh, and I never got into Utena-- it's just that I know most people who've got issues with shoujo in general seem to like it 'cause it does meta-commentary on said issues and plays with shoujo tropes. I just never connected with it. The manga's supposed to be better.

    Fushigi Yuugi's a lot more fan-servicey than 'Ayashi no Ceres', which is a bit more mature. I mean, it doesn't take much to get more mature than Miyaka and her dreamboat boyfriend, y'know?? Haha FY is like, at the extreme end of over-the-top shoujo, though I have fond memories of it. Aww.

    In BL/yaoi, there's tons of stuff on top of this, and I'm actually more familiar with it. People will rec you stuff like Love Mode and Loveless, but don't listen to them. They'll also rec you stuff by Youka Nitta and Yamane Ayano, but ignore them; the only thing those mangakas are good for is art and cool semes and angsty romance (with lots of rape-as-plot-device).

    Good BL with plot/build-up is stuff like 'The Ice-Cold Demon's Tale', 'Sex Pistols', 'Komatta Toki ni wa Hoshi ni Kike!', 'Three Wolves Mountain', the Rules series, 'Gerard and Jacques', 'Koi ga Bokura wo Yurusu Hani' and pretty much everything but the authors of the mangas above :> And that's a bare sampling, of course :D

    Man, if only I could read all those for the first time again. *sigh*

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    Re: PS
    (Anonymous)
    2008-07-05 08:14 pm UTC (link)
    Yay! Someone who doesn't like Twilight! Maybe it's just me, but Twilight is so like smutty shoujo out there it's not even funny. And yet it's extremely popular. Twilight is what I would call "stupid". HP, on the other hand, isn't the most shining example, but it's cute, it's exciting, it's good, and the last volume seriously delved into some major stuff.

    I think when reading shoujo/yaoi, put yourself into a certain state of mind. But if you're looking for smut, you will tolerate more, because it's separate from reality. If it's a serious series, you will have higher standards. It's only natural. Think of the difference between your expectations of a Harlequin romance and an epic story.

    However, all of those things stop it's just too stupid to imagine or make me feel degraded as a female. Then, I DROP it, simple as that, because it's crossed the line from smut to trash. And rape is usually what causes me to feel it's too stupid and degraded. However, certain idealized, cute, or unrealistic series I will tolerate, and even love, such as MeruPuri. Because, I feel that the mangaka is having fun with it. And even for the stupid ones, I don't feel that the mangaka really believes in this stuff, only she's writing to please, even though I WILL "blacklist" the mangaka and recognize that she's a bad one.

    However, I still wonder about it. It's just when it becomes so degraded that I wonder how the mangaka can actually write stuff like this, and put it out under her name. Why is she wasting her time instead of doing something great? I mean, does she not care about her work? Does she not mind what she's putting out there? As a writer, I find that unimaginable. Sure, I write some silly stuff sometimes, but to the point of say...Hot Gimmick, perhaps? Never. I really wonder why people waste their talent and chance to be heard like that, especially since they have the skills to draw already. But I digress in that direction.

    About shoujo recs, I think the best of shoujo are those that combine realism with the styles of shoujo, just like the best fantasies are one that mixes unrealistic settings with realistic feelings. Does that make any sense? Paradise Kiss, Nana, Suppli, Kimi Wa Petto, and even Kodocha, Fruits Basket, ect. Despite all its "unrealism" and shoujo quirks(especially in Kodocha and Fruits Basket) these series portray emotions realistically. It's really amazing how many "good" series there are against the "bad" series, but it's those shining gems that keep me coming back to shoujo for more. Same with shounen. Death Note is shounen, and yet it's shining for it's "non-black-and-white" feel, and it's little fanservice, but with the action and competition quirks of shounen. It's the same with anything, I think, shoujo or not.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)

    Re: PS
    [info]meganbmoore
    2008-07-04 04:47 am UTC (link)
    Basara is actually, by far, my favorite shoujo, and one of the few shoujo where I don't mind the sexually aggressive male. Probably because he tries because he's so used to having girls fall all over him, but he gets the concept of "no." I think a lot of why it isn't popular is the art(though I'd rather look at it's art than a lot of the popular art) and also because the plot isn't as "easy" as most shoujo plots. Most shoujo seems to have pretty clear good/bad lines, and Basara erases them for most characters. It also keeps the lovers apart for massive parts of the book, and motivated by things other than their True and Epic Love. Most shoujo manga fans I know seem to just want them together and angsting/making out. (Which, you know, is perfectly fine...I just like some plot to go with it!)

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    Immensely late, but better that than never --
    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-12 08:35 pm UTC (link)
    Most shoujo seems to have pretty clear good/bad lines, and Basara erases them for most characters.

    That's actually what I love the most about it; even the characters who should be easy to hate, like the general who decapitated her brother (not a spoiler if it's part of the premise!), are given depth and explored to a degree where they're neither black nor white. I adore this series, and it's just regrettable that a lot of what I think makes it a spectacular story - the issues that aren't necessarily romantic, the intricate characterizations, everything you pointed out - keep it from being too popular.

    As for my favorite manga, it's neverending tug-of-war between Basara and Petshop of Horrors, and for a lot of the same reasons: shades of grey, dubious humanity, and a relationship from opposite sides of the battlefield. What I find awesome about PSOH is that it doesn't need romance to compete with something as great as Basara. The tense gen relationship (that borders on obsession) is more than enough. Unfortunately, like Basara, it also has a tiny, tiny fandom (does Basara even have a fandom?), maybe for the same reasons - hard questions, weird art. And, of course, no definite romance.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    Re: Immensely late, but better that than never --
    [info]meganbmoore
    2008-07-12 09:01 pm UTC (link)
    Basara and Petshop both have fans, but not really fandoms. The thing about fandoms is that, as near as I can tell, most seem to not really want complexity or things that make them really think. When they do want complexity, they want it neatly wrapped up and compartmentalized so they can admire it without really thinking about it or dissecting it. I think the only really exception is Saiyuki.

    Petshop's relative lack of popularity has always astounded me. I mean, if nothing else, you'd think the fact that it practically begs to be slashed would help it out. Then again, both D and Leon code as both male and female at various times, instead of neatly fitting into the tropes.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)

    Re: PS
    [info]heavenscalyx
    2008-08-18 02:19 pm UTC (link)
    As for Utena, I was watching the anime, but I stopped after a bit because it was sliding into fillers and it's hard to stay interested if you're barely sure of what's going on... I'm curious enough, though, to finish it. Just. Someday.

    I made a "new viewer's guide" to Utena for a friend of mine who got put off by the filler-type episodes so she would know when she could skip an episode if it was annoying her too much. You can find it here, if you're interested.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]rasielle
    2008-07-04 03:15 am UTC (link)
    Wow, when you put it like that, I actually feel a lot better (relieved, I guess) - and a little foolish, for taking it all very seriously. On one hand, I still think the whole suspension-of-RL-standards is a matter that should be taken seriously, since certain cases (like that of rape) shouldn't be caricatured this commonly at all (and there are plenty of people taking it seriously, shaking their heads woefully over certain titles) but also, like you said, in order to keep reading and enjoying titles without distraction, the reader should sort of detach himself, because manga is typically that far-out.

    You are probably much more experienced in reading manga than I am, too, and I think it shows. ^^;; I'm still in the squirm-fidget-"what should I think?" mode, trying to adjust but not wanting to compromise my own values even internally. But nonetheless, I want to continue reading manga and plowing through the genre to find gems, so I guess that kind of distance from the series is actually necessary.

    Luckily, the difference between good shoujo series and bad-sick-wrong shoujo series is usually great enough that I don't expect I'll be feeling this weirdly about manga again - so far, at least. Not much middle ground, I guess.

    I feel like saying that 'shounen is more feminist', or even better in any way as a genre is too simplistic

    Here I agree wholeheartedly with zero reservations. When I contemplated diving into a different genre, I was actually thinking along the lines of josei and seinen, which are fairly neutral. But yes, the shounen genre comes with its own problems, too, but since they aren't centrally about relationships, they can get away with a great deal of it. Still, it's not surprising that shoujo gets the heat of the feminist arguments, since cases like excused rape are just glaringly huge in comparison to fanservice, even a steadily offensive stream of it.

    These aren't even real people. They're idealized and objectified and Mary Sue'd and googly-eyed into oblivion.

    Yep, they aren't, but in extreme cases, they reflect (extremely?) hazardous views of people who are real. Admittedly, though, the writer might be separating him/herself from the piece like the experienced reader does, consciously exaggerating, or just not very concerned by the issue he/she is illustrating - which is worrisome but not worth ripping yourself up for, I suppose.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


    [info]imeander
    2008-07-04 04:22 am UTC (link)
    Well, as for the mangakas' povs, you have to learn more about Japanese culture and where all this come from-- and I would, too-- before we could fruitfully discuss it. One of the things that bother me the most about discourse on this subject is the fact that it ignores the serious cultural rift in play here-- Japanese moral code is just not the Western one in central ways, and the way a mangaka would think about certain themes probably wouldn't even occur to us. That said, I'm pretty sure they do distance and the suspension of reality is firmly in place, so yes, it's not worth angstying about :)

    Yeah, I do think the distance from the genre is necessary if you like it-- and it may seem like I'm blase about it, but yeah, that's because I've been reading it for a long time now, and I barely even notice all the weirdness anymore-- I just read all sorts of silly stuff and even enjoy it, hoping to find one more really cool series to feed my addiction :D But you have to enjoy the silly/stupid stuff on some level or you'll just burn out or get bitter, y'know? Eventually. So in my head I have 'redeeming qualities' even for cliched series, and lots of shades of gray before I think something is so crap I have to drop it; that said, I've developed a radar for these things so that I don't even start stuff that sounds really stupid. That's what the Baka Updates manga website is for :>

    The thing about josei is, there's not near as much of it scanlated-- and a part of me enjoys it turned into J-Drama (live action) more than reading it. I dunno. There are some good J-Dramas, haha (for Kimi wa Petto, definitely). As for seinen, I prefer to watch it in anime form, if I'm going to watch it; since it's so action-heavy, it doesn't translate so well to manga form for me, and music/motion provides more atmosphere and emotional resonance, whereas seinen can seem a little too dry/cerebral to me otherwise. I need to make an emotional connection with something if I'm going to read it, even (especially) if it's more cerebral a genre like sci-fi or seinen. With shoujo/BL, I'm just happy if there's pretty art and not too stupid of a story, 'cause basically it's hitting my kinks and not requiring me to think, haha.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


    (Anonymous)
    2008-07-07 05:19 pm UTC (link)
    About scanlations and josei, josei really ISN'T scanlated much, but J-Sis is a new group that's scanlating josei. And for josei, I'm very into them being scanlated because I think it'll be a long time before a lot of it will be published. Then again, there's also Aurora, so...

    Japanese culture IS different from American culture. I mean, in Asia, still, it's shameful to the FEMALE if she comes up and says she's been raped, and people think she's dirtied, not that she's a victim. So I guess, in that case, the female loving the rapist would be technically the best (?) situation? Whatever, it's still very sick. And I can't help thinking that no one would think rape is a good thing. I mean, the really GOOD shoujo series I've seen have ALWAYS condemned rape or hurting a female in any way. So I think there's a lot of fantasy and detachment from reality apart from the cultural difference between Western and Eastern for the mangakas to be drawing these.

    And...despite all the trash that I've read, I'm still so into shoujo even though it's been awhile since I've pondered on a great series. I think it's something like "sentimental value" and the hope that I can find a good one again. And yeah, you have to enjoy some of the stupid stuff and suspend your disbelief. And you know, a lot of that stupid stuff and cliches of shoujo is probably what makes it enjoyable, especially if well-done. Even though it's impossible to believe, with cliches and stupid stuff, it's still so FUN, you know? And it's what makes half-satires like Sugar Sugar Rune great, and MeruPuri (complete candy with no logic and believability) and High School Debut (half slice-of-life, half cliche-filled) so fun. ^^

    All said and done, I really do have to say I love shoujo to death. Even though I really do want to stop reading shoujo when my entire mind is filled with all the trash out there, it only takes a few weeks of not reading shoujo for me to leap back in.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]meganbmoore
    2008-07-04 04:39 am UTC (link)
    I kinda know what you mean about shounen mangas. I often think that at least part of why I read them is because they give the girl more to do outside of a romantic plotline. A good example is Samurai Deeper Kyo: the main girl there is one of the worst sufferers of boob/butt shots(and regularly gets grabbed) but is one of the primary plot movers in most arcs of the series, and it's even her need for revenge that kicks off the series, and she tends to tie the characters together more than anything else.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]marfisa
    2008-07-10 08:21 am UTC (link)
    By the way, the American publisher's title for "Kimi wa Petto" is "Tramps Like Us."

    (Reply to this)


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