Veve ([info]veve_w) wrote in [info]mamorulovers,
@ 2007-09-25 23:49:00
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Mamoru, a background character.
It's been more than 2 years since I updated Chiba (Just a Token Male), but after some inspiring conversations with [info]ellorgast (thanks again <333!), I was motivated into putting some new insights together.

Pretty pictures and citations to be added.


Background Information



I'm taking a rather backward and inside out approach to analyzing Mamoru by exploring what kind of surrounding it would take to shape his character. More specifically, I'm diving into the connection between Prince Endymion and Mamoru. A couple of years back, I read a short story which motivates this concept quite well. Unfortunately, try as I might--and I've spent the last 2 days trying--I cannot recall what the story was titled or who its author. So I ask you to take my word for it as I outline the plot:

A family on a farm took an eagle for a pet. They tamed him by clipping his wings and feeding him like the other animals. One day, the eagle saw a wild eagle and pursued it. He followed the wild eagle through forests and mountains and into the vast expanse of the sky until they reached their natural habitat. The flight terrified the farm-raised eagle, and he began his journey "home". As he approached the barn, however, he was mistaken for something or order, and was shot down.


The story illustrates how an inherently majestic creature was ruined because it was displaced from its natural surroundings. As a predator, as king of the sky, so removed from his nature was he that it scared him when he entered his element. In the end, he dies from an undignified and humble death at the hands of his owners like a common deer. Due to dulled instincts, perhaps.

That's a roundabout way of saying the setting is influencial on one's character, and therefore their course of action. We'll then be able to analyze causes, actions and consequences in two contexts: with respect to the content and with respect to the setting. (E.g. A sports team winning a game vs. A sports team winning an away game where their opponents have a home advantange.)

As in an aside, the story can be interpretated allegorically where Mamoru is the farm!Eagle. Mamoru's a person with raw, unmined potential. His powers have no place in Tokyo (there's no need for the eagle to hone his hunting skills if food is fed to him) but when he comes face to face with the Negaverse (his flight into the sky), his undeveloped power becomes insufficient. That is not that say Mamoru's from the negaverse, but once upon a time, assuming the role of warrior/protector/ruler was natural.

Having said that, the goal is to:


  • bring to life that forgotton past. It's not enough to make the character believable, but also the world that they live in. We don't have a lot of problem connecting with Mamoru, despite the cultural diversity in the Sailor Moon audience, because he lives in our modernized world. That ancient prince, however, is laid against a poorly painted backdrop, and that's not fair because he's apart of our present-day hero. How much of Mamoru's personality does Endymion dictate? That's also something to be explored...

  • Gain new insights to Endymion from studying the setting in which Endymion developed. In turn, study


    • how the life that Endymion led affects Mamoru, and

    • how Mamoru interprets his past life as Endymion given his experience in this life time.





The Sailor Moon universe both fascinating and somewhat complicated with these past identities and alter egos. It lends to exciting plot ideas to have the characters struggle with who they really are. This calls for a careful definition of character actually means. I'm going to borrow a definition from the text whose ideas I'm going to borrow in the next couple of paragraphs:

Character comes from a Greek word meaning "a certain mental imprint". Hamlet cannot make up his mind, Macbeth is ambitious, King Lear is blind to others. Character is the sum of the choices one makes.


There are certain qualities to Mamoru and Endmyion that have transcended time, but there are also a number of notable differences that are inspired by their environment. They are not the same person, per se, buy they have similar character--personality traits or mental imprints. This definition is inclusive to what I've mentioned above.

The Setting



The canon does not reveal a lot of information about the Silver Millenium and much less about how Earth fits into that inter-plantary scheme. Thus, I can take a lot of liberty in fabricating the civilization of the Golden Kingdom. I feel like I'm almost taking the easy way out by mapping the Golden Age of Ancient Greece (that is, the Classical Period from 490-323 BC) to the Golden Kingdom. But there's no ancient civilization more revered than that of the Greeks. (It's would have been also fascinating to try to map it onto East Asian culture, where there's a similar set of valued principles including face, glory, honour, duty and loyalty.) It's just instinctively appropriate. In many ways, I'm just formalizing what fandom has already established for itself. They are theories on the assumption that the Golden Kingdom shared the same culture as the ancient Greeks.

Clash of the Sexes



Greece was strictly a patriarchy. Male had surpreme authority. They dominated their families individually and public affairs collectively.


They alone were obligated to fight in wars, and they alone were eligible to become citizens of the polis [= city-state]. They were prepared for these roles by an education that began in early childhood and taught them not only to read and write, but also to be atheletic, in rigorous control of their appetites, and fearless in battle and the hunt. They grew up in a small, tightly knit, relentlessly competitive community in which everyone knew everyone's worth and there was no forgiveness for failure. An individual was celebrated for victories over his enemies in war and politics and for his wit and ability to entertain at the all male symposium "drunking party".


While we don't know how much Mamoru remembers of his past as Endymion, his awareness of culture, whether conscious or unconscious, explains a lot about his personality. His drive in academics and participation in sports (e.g. Soccer) should come as no surprise, even aiming as high as Harvard (See: Mamolove's "My Sempai" and "The Golden Crystal"). His control of his appetites and desires probably frustrates Usagi* at times, but it was discipline longed instilled on him. It explains why he's so hard on himself. As a Prince, he was no doubt trained in every discipline and skill; he was a force to be reckoned with, a warrior in times of civil strife. It contrasts sharply with his lack of guidance and mentorship and untapped power in the face of adversary. He doesn't measure up, and there was, after all, no forgiveness for failure.


*Fandom Perspective:



Actually, Mamoru never acted interested in sex unless they were both in mortal danger. As that rather odd epiphany crystalized in Usagi's mind, she couldn't ignore how very true it was, yet the incredible *wrongness* of it resonated through her. What kind of boyfriend only wanted to sleep with his girlfriend when they were both under assault by demonic forces?

- missandrony's "Two Women, Down for the Count"


There are people who express their insecurities by agressively pushing people away (Mamoru in the anime did push Usagi away in Season R but that's out of context), Mamoru takes on a passive stance by internalizing his emotions. He copes by holding himself back to keep that distance (e.g. Silence as a reaction to his jealously of Haruka during her first appearance). He's intensively subtle that way; controlled. But repressing so much emotion, he's waiting to implode.

Mamoru may not be a terribly social person, but saying he has no friends is farfetched. No close friends, perhaps, but not no friends period. He's charming with a quick mind and sharp tongue, that's hinted at his first encounters with Usagi in both the manga and anime. The best example that illustrate these qualities that I have come acrossed, however, exists in fandom. Kihin Ranno is absolutely brilliant:


*Fandom Perspective:



Mamoru cleared his throat one last time and laid back down, completely exhausted from his [coughing] fit. He looked over at Motoki weakly and muttered, "Don't look so guilty, Motoki. This isn't your fault."

The boy from the arcade was not assuaged from his emotion. He shook his head slightly and said, "I shouldn't have--"

"Motoki," Mamoru said sternly, reaching over and laying a hand on the man's arm. He looked up to meet a gentle grin. "I'm the patient here. I deserve all the pity the world has to offer. I can't waste my energy making you feel better. Now stop it and pity me, or I'll have you thrown out."

---

Motoki shrugged and interrupted him. "It just seems as though there's more to you two sometimes. You look at her like-"

"Like I want to tell her to shut up but I'm too nice of a guy to do it," Mamoru said definitively. "Listen Motoki, I don't know what you've been drinking lately, but stop it. Playing matchmaker that would result in child molestation charges should not be your hobby. Stick with what you know - busing tables and making bad coffee."

For a brief moment, Motoki looked like an indignant housewife, complete with hands on his hips and a slight pout. "I thought you liked my
coffee."

"I like the price of your coffee," Mamoru clarified smugly. "I abhor the taste. Now, if I may continue...

"Usagi is irritatingly adorable, maddening and impossible. She is an infatuated, idealistic, immature, innocent, and infantile teenager who has
made it her life's mission to drive me to the mental hospital without ever getting into a car. She's relatively pleasing to look at, but she is also
fourteen, has one of the most annoying voices I have ever heard, she eats at least three times her weight, and she's fourteen. I say that twice
because it is the most important thing to keep in mind throughout this conversation."

- Kihin Ranno's "Forgotten Forever"


There are still traces of these values in today's society where men are expected (from women and from themselves) to behave in a certain way and to aspire to certain standards. The practice of pederasty (= "love for boys"), however, has a completely different meaning today. Today, it is pedophilia; in the past, it was a practice to "enhance the refined moral qualities of loyalty, respect, affection, and courage". It's a measure of the enormous distance between our cultures. These relationships were rarely romantic and brought friendships to a platonic level. It strengthen one's attachment to their state and citizens (free/non-slave males) which drove them in battle.

Understanding this, it is not odd to speculate that Endymion and his shitennou were close on many levels including a physical one. The duties of the shitennou are speculated endlessly--protectors, mentors, teachers, companions or any combinations of the four. This kind of acceptance allows, in the sense that it's not disproved of by society, for the shitennou to not only teach Endymion theories but to walk things through with him in practice from tangible skills like sword-fighting to abstract concepts like loyalty and affection. Indeed, the loyalty spans lifetimes. (See: Evil Authoress, Inc's "Bleed", Evil_Authoress' "The First to Fall", Spirit-hime's "Resonating Light")

Evidence shows that Greece was a patriarcal society, but in Greek myths (which may contain historical truths), the universe was governed by female deities (Gaea) before they were overthrown (Uranus overtook Gaea but who was overthrown by Cronus who was overthrown by Zeus--all were known as sky gods, Kings of the sky). Gaea, one of the four primordial deities, was the "all-giver", the giver of life. She asexually gave birth to Uranus and started the cycle of reproduction. In society females (virgins especially) were thought to be wild and dangerous until they were tamed by a male authority, and they were portrayed as thus in myths. Women in literature did not hesitate to lie and scheme to accomplish their goals. Take for example, the Battle of the Titans. Gaea was the one who led Cronus to Uranus' castration; she was the one who taught Cronus' wife, Rhea, to deceive Cronus so that Zeus may survive to wage war against the titans. Thereafter Zeus established order in the world as we know it, and it was also Gaea who provides many obstacles before stability was established. As an aside, it's worth noting that Zeus is the god that presides of law and justice.

Fandom has established this image where the Moon and all the other planets were more advanced than the Earth. Earth was the primitive planet, still barbaric and savaged in their thoughts. The cosmogonic myth puts an interesting spin to the Sailor Moon universe if we take it for historical merits. It would mean, chronologically, that the rule of male follows the rule of females. Earth, then, would have been the advanced planet. Or the Silver Millenium was just a special generation in which the heirs were all females.

Inevitably, this political and sexual tension brings us to the interpration of Endymion's relationship with Serenity. The people of earth no doubt saw Serenity as conniving woman out to seduce their prince. While Endymion's choice to side with his love is romantic to many of us, to his citizens, he was placing a woman before the state. Women were suppose to be immaterial, spoils of war like gold and nice pottery. Because of this attitude, it should have been easy for Beryl and Metallia to manipulate a revolution.

It is unlikely that Mamoru and Usagi follow the dynamics of males and females in ancient Greence, but they do complements each other in that Mamoru grounds her free-loving spirit. He's her pillar of strength, her rock. (Cronus gets deceived into eating a rock that he thought was Zeus allow for his survival and consequent rise to power. Interesting stuff, I say!)

Backtracking a bit, both political system lends some neat insights into Endymion's character, and Mamoru's in turn. If Earth was patrilineal, Endymion had a lot to prove to a solar system ruled by powerful female figures. If, though, Earth was matrilineal like the rest of the planets (See: Queen's "The Stone Hearted Princess"), Endymion was not only up against the solar system but the entire galaxy. No pressure. Unfortunately, as far as anyone was concerned, he only proved to be an incompetent leader and a bringer of doom. For Mamoru, it simply means he has two lifetimes of selfworth to make for, and the lovely burden of knowing that it was his actions that caused the downful of a galactic empire.

----------------------------------------

There's still a few things that I want to cover before I label this complete:
- Concept of polis, city-states: where loyalties lie
- Gods, how they fit or don't fit into this model of Earth
- Was Prince Endymion a vengeful man? What kind of ruler was he/would he have been? How does retribution come in?

I also have another section plotting in the head. If time would allow me, I want to exploit my productivity to the fullest.


Any feedback is much appreciated!


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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-26 06:01 am UTC (link)
I really appreciate the fact that you've invested so much time and effort in this. Perhaps you know, but I can't tell you how absolutely frustrating it can be, (as a fan of the guy, a fanartist, a fanfictionist), to know that there just is not enough information out there. Especially when the potential for such a rich background is overlooked canon-wise. *sniffle*

In a case like Mamorus', I really like the idea of someone trying to draw smart, observable conclusions... to set a kind of "even ground" for his character because, well, we all know Naoko didn't. But it's a very large and touchy task. As I see, you've drawn on history, mythology, and well-established fanfictions. *strokes chin* I agree with a lot of what was written... I don't know if it's entirely how I would have it, but I like the ideas- especially the analogie at the beginning.

Mamoru and Endymion... that's tricky. Especially since you have to take into consideration that Mamoru regained his memories of his past life spent as Endymion. A question needs to be asked there- Does that awakening re-imprint the past personality of Endymion on present-life Mamoru? Or are the memories truly disconnected, and Endymion and Mamoru are two entirely separate beings?

I think of it this way: Mamoru and Endymion are two manifestations (personalities) which share the same soul. The soul manifests in many lifetimes through different bodies, learning different lessons, exhibiting different (or perhaps the same?) characteristics, and etc. Those personalities may in fact be separate, having nothing to do with each other. But when we come to a point where we're awakened enough to see the fact that the essence of our being had manifest in another time/place, in another body with another name, perhaps we rise to a level where integration occurs. Maybe we recognize that fact that on a soul level, we are all those people who all share certain characteristics and lessons, because we share the same soul.

Take the thought further. If Mamoru regained his memories as Endymion, and openly acknowledges himself thus as 'Prince Endmyion of Earth'... Well, what about King Endymion in Crytal Tokyo? How do we go from Prince Endymion, to Mamoru Chiba, to King Endymion? We are sure that King Endymion *IS* Mamoru Chiba in the same life/incarnation. But why revert to using 'Endymion' if he did not share Endymion's qualities, his personality with Mamoru?

The larger questions after that... being what was Endymion's personality? How did he rule? I think that if you examine King Endymion, extract some Mamoru, and use a wee bit of creative license, you'll come out with some great answers.

Also, I would do some research about "gold" and it's properties; spiritual properties, if I may. Seeing as Mamoru's starseed and crystal is the golden crystal, (thus, Endymion's as well). Perhaps that would shed more light on what Endymion and Mamoru have in common, what Mamoru acknowledges fromthe lifetime spent as Endymion. I'm also now interested in the astological implications of the Earth are. Just as the girls' guardian planets influence them, Mamoru's guardian planet is Earth, yet he's influenced Astrologically by the Sun, (me thinks this is where the Elysion thing ties in- I REALLY need to go back and re read that part).

Lastly, for more of Endymion's personality, I'm HIGHLY interested in looking at both the Pythagorean and Chaldean Numerological breakdowns of the name to see how it influences the personality... *huuums* I think I'll do that later today ;-)

I doubt this helps any, but you've got the wheels in my head turning. I haven't had the chance to discuss the boy this in depth with anyone before ;__;

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-26 01:37 pm UTC (link)
*squeals*

You're getting me all excited and I have to leave in about 10 minutes. It's been since such conversations about Mamoru has been inspired and doesn't revolve around him being Usagi's other half.

We were not told exactly how much of his past life Mamoru remembers. Memory is a funny thing, and the fight against Metallia might have only brought back the most relevant and traumatic of memories: that is, his relationship with Serenity and the events leading up to the war against the Moon.

I apologize for the confusion, but I never meant to imply that the past personality of Endymion would be imprinted on Mamoru like a stamp. I like to think that Mamoru always shared qualities with Endymion of varying intensity (I've yet to incorporate them into the article formally), but he also had also come to develop certain traits of his own because of present-day events such as the childhood car crash. This is, perhaps, the soul that refer to.

Where we differ is that you believe integration occurs after some kind of enlightenment. I see it as an unconscious process.

(The ideal of 'soul' was also central in Greek society as are many other spiritual and religious rituals that I've overlooked. I shall look into that in greater detail. Thanks for bringing it up!)

I don't think Mamoru acknowledges himself as Prince of Earth simply because he doesn't think he can rise up to the title. To him, and maybe even to the senshi at large, the title was handled to him by default because he was the reincarnation of the heir. (I have this whole fanart deal in my head when Mamoru puts aside his insecurity and come to accept it the whole-heartedly)

King Endymion would be Mamoru. The name is picked up to succeed the throne, not necessarily because of a switch to change between personalities which, from my standpoint, is vastly similar with addition traits built on top of it due to new experiences. King Endymion would still have Mamoru's quirks and characteristics (built on top of Prince Endymion's) because they're the same person, but he would no doubt have changed some after a few hundred years. (We're talking about him as though he has a multiple personality disorder!) As a rose by any other name would smell as nice or whatever.

-----------------

I do have more to say but I'm afraid I'm running late now. I'll be back!

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-26 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Lol now I only have 15 minutes before I have to leave for school :P

No- you didn't lead me to think that Endymion stamped Mamoru. That was me "thinking out loud," if you will. It makes the most sense to me that Endymion would have an impact on Mamoru's personality. Even without Mamoru's recognition, characteristics that come from Endymion would still seep through the subconscious. (Like you have written about integration somewhere in there). But this is coming from a person who feels that our past lives play a very large part in who we are and what we do.

That raises a good point, with the Metallia bit- I assume we're talking manga here? Not anime? Obviously because anime!Mamoru got his memories back before the plunge into death, (actually, scratch that- he never officially died when he was abducted, did he?). But if his memories, as a puppet, were carefully hand-picked... Even still, that makes me want to know if that's REALLY all he remembers, even after the battle is over. A part of me doubts that, and yet I can't really back it up. *kicks Naoko's leg underneath the table* ... *evil glare* X__X;

Before I get too ahead of myself, unfortunately, I have to cut this short- school calls!

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-26 05:11 pm UTC (link)
XD I'm in between school periods at the moment.

"But this is coming from a person who feels that our past lives play a very large part in who we are and what we do."

Thanks for bringing this up. I was being rather ambitious and didn't really go in depth about this detail--how much does the past influence Mamoru? Did he accept or reject that Endymion was a part of him? Did he resent that he'll always be measured against an invisible figure of the past? (There was a fanfiction about Small Lady facing something similar, afraid that she falls short of what her parents expect of her because of the time her future self spent with her parents in the past.) If he did remember all of his past, did he approve or the choices Endymion made?

Does Mamoru have an identity crisis? The anime made a point about this in the events that leading up to his dual with Zoisite. Questioning who he is makes him more susceptible to the influences of the past. He would have to struggle to find himself and come to terms with working with 4 different versions of himself (Prince, Tuxedo Kamen/even Moonlight Knight!, King and Mamoru). Reminds me of Lion King II:

"If there's so much I must be
Can I still just be me?
The way I am?
Can I trust in my own heart?
Or am I just one part
Of some big plan?"

If, on the other hand, Mamoru has a clear idea of who he is (it appears that he was much more stable in the manga and from what I know of PGSM, it drives this point home), his past life won't impact him a great deal. That is not to say, knowing his past won't in some way change his outlook in life.

-------

Going back to what you brought up in the first post:

I really like the idea of starting from King Endymion and stripping away layers of qualities to work your back to Prince Endymion.

I would love hear the results of your research when you're done! I have some sketch notes about how astrology/astronomy and etymology comes into playing field but none of that warrants any in depth analysis yet.

P.S. I'm always talking about the manga unless otherwise stated.

-----------------

It's time that I run back to school now.

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-26 08:24 pm UTC (link)
That's an interesting round of questioning *nod* How much does his past affect him, indeed. *rubs chin* I know that theoretically, past lives can affect people to varying degrees. In canon BSSM, it doesn't seem that the affect is a visible one. Afterall, Usagi also remembers her life as Serenity, but she also *is* associated with being Princess Serenity. Not that we know that much about Serenity, either, but I think it's fair to say that Usagi and Serenity are extremely different at first glance. A 14 year old girl in 90's culture versus a (how old?) Crown Princess of the Silver Millenium, 1000 years prior. Very different indeed. Maybe when you start to strip away what they don't have in common, one can potentially see the same girl, (all depending on what stories you've read and how you interpret Serenity). Also taking the Neo Queen into account. (I like to think of their future selves as kind of a marriage between the past life and present life personalities... the present being the strongest, of course, because they -were- born as Usagi and Mamoru and are still living those lives).

Enough with the paragraph of doom. ^^ I can agree with, "If, on the other hand, Mamoru has a clear idea of who he is, his past life won't impact him a great deal."

I wonder if you feel the same way about this... Now, I don't know if it was conscious on part of the people writing and directing the anime, but I noticed it the second time I watched Sailor Moon through, Mamoru just completely gave up on the whole "Mission: Identity" thing as soon as First Season started getting heavy with plot activity. When I noticed -that-, and bought all of the Japanese manga, it seemed to me that manga!Mamoru also gave it up. Which is extremely strange, seeing as Mamoru's desire to know who he is, IS one of his largest motivations in the story, (er, was?). The search seemed to start to fizzle after the act wherein Mamoru brought Usagi to his apartment. It struck me in weird but profound sense. Had he already found out? Did he stop because it was all the more confusing? Or did Usagi take first seat over that priority? Maybe he found the part of himself he'd been searching for IN Usagi, or -because- of her. Or did Naoko and the animation team all get lazy and let his character drive fade out? :/ (Man, if I applied this much critical thinking to abstract math, I'd be getting 100's instead of 80's XD).

>< Boyfriends' here! I'm going driving one last time before my drivers test! (21 and going for the first time, lol). I'll come back to this though- I have a lot of studying to do, so I'll get to the numerology and astrology bit as soon as I can afterward. So, TTYS!

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-27 03:04 am UTC (link)
Despite Usagi being the main character, I can't say I can formulate an interesting take on her. Her archetype didn't appeal to me.

I've sat on your questions for a while.

I can pick up 2 motivations for his search for the Phantom Silver Crystal: (1) to unlock his (present) past, and (2) to get to the bottom of the dreams that plagued him at night. It's the logical and investigative side of him. He's an eager learner, and that lust for knowledge quality suits him and explains he does so well academically. It's the same quality that will enable him to build Crystal Tokyo later in the future.

If it was largely because of the latter, I suppose it explains the sudden drop of the subplot. He already found his answer: the dream was to lead him to Usagi (and prepare for the upcoming fight against the Negaverse).

I can't make up my mind for the first case.

I don't like to settle for answer that he stopped searching for himself because he found what he was searching for in Usagi. It implies that he's using her to define himself. His insecurity aside, I like to think he's independent and autonomous. But regardless of what I personally prefer, one theory is that his search for identity was an extension of his search for purpose driven by his orphaned childhood. (As if anyone knows what the meaning of life is! At 17 no less.) After meeting Usagi/Sailor Moon in his Tuxedo-clad adventures, he found/made it his purpose to be a protector. [He later reveals his dream to be the protection of his planet with Usagi. At this point, he's no longer lost or uncertain. The coronation was a nice touch in the Saga. (See below and reread this.)]

I like the idea that Usagi took priority because of his habit of putting others before himself which is a definite trait of his. Once everything calms down (i.e. Post Galaxia and pre Crystal Tokyo), he will pick up his journey again. Maybe he'll come to the conclusion that he can't identify himself without adding Usagi into the equation. That, I can accept. The difference is in when he finds his answer and whether he's in a right frame of mind to make a clear-headed analysis of himself. At the beginning, should he see himself in Usagi, he is a function of Usagi. After the whole senshi ordeal, he's should be more than capable of making an informed decision, that is, Usagi is a function of him. She's fundamental in his life, but his life is not defined to be Usagi.

I do hope I make sense. I might have made it a tad mathematical ^^;

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-27 05:11 am UTC (link)
"Once everything calms down (i.e. Post Galaxia and pre Crystal Tokyo), he will pick up his journey again." Agreed. Whole heartedly. I've always envisioned him going back and tying up all of the loose ends before he became a King and a Father. He's to become a leader and mentor, a pillar of strength and knowledge and dependability, and as you stated a builder of a kingdom. (In fact, I've been absolutely ITCHING to portray this 'going back' in a Mamoru-past, present, future-centric story for 6 months). There's no way he can NOT know himself. I can't see Crystal Tokyo flourishing under that condition.

Yep, that makes perfect sense. Sociology is still buzzing about in my brain, but I understand. Maybe this is going a little too far and stretching theories to their extent where they shouldn't be applied. But Sociology is making me think a lot about this issue of Mamoru's 'self,' versus finding identity in Usagi, or in Endymion of the past, and etc. A popular view of identity and self in Sociology is that...(and I'm going to word this as best as I know how), the definition of self is not independant of others around you; your spouse, your family, your friends, co-workers, and society as a whole. In other words, it is (impossible) to have an idea of "self" without looking and referencing to the world outside of you. And even at that, it's hard to know what the true "self" is because we as individuals are always "playing" or putting on different masks for different situations and groups. For the sake of fitting in, being accepted, or even just being able to function properly in society. (There's always rules to obey, unspoken terms we abide by, different behaviors for different settings, and etc). Considering this... well, it's hard to say how this is different than finding his identity totally in Usagi, but it's possible that she stands as a mirror for him, (as others characters he interacts with would). Through her, he can perhaps see certain aspects of himself that he hasn't been able to before. We as the readers can see staple characteristics, of course. To get into his head, though, in trying to develop a rich, inner life for the character, this may be important. Then again, it may not, and this may just be a really off-the-wall tangent that doesn't apply to anything whatsoever. Lol. (Seriously, if I'm going way too out there, let me know. I feel like I'm babbling instead of helping).

I'm proceeding with the Numerological and Astrological implications right after this! I think I'll add the bit about Gold that I mentioned before into my "to-look-up" list; I'm extremely interested, now. OH, before I forget! The book I'm using for the Chaldean Numerology source also discusses at length symbols and their meanings. The Cancer glyph is discussed at length, and also the theory of Cancer and Leo being the symbolic "Great Mother and Father" ...which PRETTY dang interesting when you consider that term and apply it to BSSM. Usagi being the Cancer, Mamoru being the Leo, and the creation of utopian Crystal Tokyo (and at the same time, the heir to the new millenium, Small Lady). Enough of this! I'm going to read! =D

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-27 07:50 am UTC (link)
Update- I have oodles of information typed up =___= (I'm not even DONE *falls over*) Because it's all straight from a book, I don't think I'm allowed to post it up on the net. How would you like me to get it to you :)

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-27 12:38 pm UTC (link)
It's nice to know that I'm not the only one applying school knowledge to a fictional character as opposed to the "real world"! A lot of this has been inspired by my mythology reading XD

I've yet to apply things from an astronomy perspective.

You've given things to think about that I don't have to time to put together. I leave for work in 10 minutes and come back from school in 13 hours.

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I tend to overlook sections about Astrology because they are general and irrelevant but I have no doubt you'll be able to pull something fantastic out of it.

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You can reach me via email at sensile at gmail.

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-27 06:52 pm UTC (link)
My Soc teacher would be so proud of me... =D

LOL It's okay. Just tell me to keep my yap shut ;)

I'll be sending the Pythagorean Numerology article later today. It kind of sucks because of the lack of birthdates. And the fact that Endymion doesn't have a full name. He has his name, and his title. Where as Mamoru has a last name, and speculative birthyear, which gives a ton more to work with. (Most likely 1974 or 1975... depending on where exactly BSSM starts. If it starts with Usagi being 14, but it's -before- her birthday in 1992, then she'll be turning 15 and Mamoru will be turning 18. If starts after her birthday, but before Mamoru's, then that gives him room to turn 17 and still hold 3 years over her. I... think...? Are there even officially three years between them?).

Astrology is general when you look at it from a Sun sign POV. Without birthplaces, dates, and times, however, we can't really get too specific. As long as we can narrow in on a birthyear for the present-day characters, we can atleast pull up speculative Moon signs, and mostly accurate Mercury, Venus, Mars, etc. signs and aspects between the planets as well. ^_^ Which makes Jessica a very happy camper.

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-28 03:27 am UTC (link)
It's consistent that Usagi is 14 when the series start between the anime and manga, and Mamoru shows his student card on the bus when he's with Usagi in the manga; he's 17 then.

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-28 01:10 pm UTC (link)
I was always confused by the "17/18?" thing at the beginning of that next act. @_@ Perhaps it's after their birthdays that year *shrug*

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[info]ellorgast
2007-09-27 04:31 am UTC (link)
Eee, you started on it! Looks awesome so far.

Re: how much Mamoru embodies Endymion, I've always tended to characterize him as someone whose association with the past is fuzzy at best. Remember, this is a man who remembers nothing from before the age of six. And, thanks to Sophia Prester's "Empire of the Sun," I always think of this as being partly out of his own need to lock away the things he cannot face. I think that his tendency to withdraw from people also extends to his need to withdraw from painful subjects. And if ever there were a painful subject, the Silver Millennium is it.

That said though, I think that as you said, there would be an unconscious merge of Endymion's personality with Mamoru's. And I think that, in true Sailor Moon fashion, the "Endymion" part of him would be seen most often in circumstances when he would be most useful, especially when protection of others is needed.

I know there's no way to really tell where Endymion ends and Mamoru begins, but I think a lot of his personality is made up of the interplay between both. For example, Mamoru's clear insecurities are very likely more Mamoru than Endymion, but he acts them out by being extremely guarded and in control of himself--traits that I would associate with Endymion.

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[info]clara_destine
2007-09-27 05:22 am UTC (link)
"I know there's no way to really tell where Endymion ends and Mamoru begins, but I think a lot of his personality is made up of the interplay between both. For example, Mamoru's clear insecurities are very likely more Mamoru than Endymion, but he acts them out by being extremely guarded and in control of himself--traits that I would associate with Endymion."

That is a great way to look at it! It could be argued that being close-guarded and in control are characteristics learned as Mamoru, (via the death of his parents, and the possibility that his time in the orphanage 'hardened' him), but I would just retort that it's unfair to say that's 100% true because the fact is, we don't know for sure.

I really like the way you put that.

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[info]ellorgast
2007-09-27 06:31 am UTC (link)
Thanks! I love all this discussion you two are generating.

I like to think that even though people are shaped by their environments, the way that they respond to their environment is very true to them, if that makes sense. If you envision your typical "orphan" character, Mamoru does not really come to mind. He's not exactly an adult Oliver Twist. So I think that, while his past certainly helped make him what he is, it's because he is Mamoru that he responded to that past by hiding behind his hard facade.

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-27 12:41 pm UTC (link)
XD That brings in a sort of philosophical spin as to whether people are born as clean slates knowing nothing, or they are born as the people who they are going to be come, and it's a matter of finding that out.

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[info]ellorgast
2007-09-27 05:03 pm UTC (link)
I guess it is a bit philosophical. XD I think (and this comes partially from being involved in role play, where I have to come up with characters and make them believably shaped by their life experiences while still the same essential person throughout life) that people are born more as a whole lot of potential. It takes different experiences to unlock that potential in different ways.

Endymion most certainly had a different kind of life from Mamoru. Some fanfiction likes to characterize him as being, like Mamoru, an orphan, but even in these circumstances, he is surrounded by friends, family, and a variety of people who attend to him and look up to him. The hardships he likely experiences in what is often shown to be a war-torn planet are still experienced with the support of others. And, I think it's interesting that the often retiring Mamoru would have been very much in the spotlight as Endymion.

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-28 03:26 am UTC (link)
Mamoru definitely isn't in the shadow as much as he think he is. The difference is where he's standing in that spot light. Endymion, despite his status, is on the same level as the people whereas Mamoru is held on a stand. He has people's admiration (e.g. Asanuma), but he neither interacts with them or is approachable. The fact that he doesn't try to put himself out there doesn't help either.

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[info]ellorgast
2007-09-29 05:18 am UTC (link)
That is a very good point. Endymion, while being on a pedestal, at least had peers who would have found him at least approachable, if not equal. I think that Mamoru himself really created that pedestal in a lot of ways, by distancing himself from people and therefore making him seem even less human.

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[info]veve_w
2007-09-27 12:31 pm UTC (link)
"That is a great way to look at it!"

Seconded! That clearly summarizes what we've been beating around the bush about.

I do believe that fits into what clara_destine was talking about earlier with apply different masks for different situations.

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[info]rosesablaze
2007-09-30 04:05 am UTC (link)
I like your essay. Like always, you have great insights to Mamoru's character. Perhaps you could go into reasons why you think the Golden Kingdom was like an ancient Greek society. The speculation of well-respected fans tends to be taken as truth, so maybe it'd be good to say "this is the way I [i]think[/i] it is because of A, B, and C." So people can see your reasoning and agree or disagree with you if they wish, rather than assume you took it directly from a canon source.

Eh, I don't think I worded that very well, but it's late at night...

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[info]veve_w
2007-10-01 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps you could go into reasons why you think the Golden Kingdom was like an ancient Greek society. The speculation of well-respected fans tends to be taken as truth...

"But there's no ancient civilization more revered than that of the Greeks. (It's would have been also fascinating to try to map it onto East Asian culture, where there's a similar set of valued principles including face, glory, honour, duty and loyalty.) It's just instinctively appropriate."

Uhh, perhaps in trying to integrate canon, fandom and history all into one article, I lost you. Like I've said, it's instinctively appropriate. You'll notice that the examples that I took from fanfiction make points about Mamoru's personality as opposed to the idea that the Golden Kingdom was like Ancient Greece. The rest of the article tries to show that because the Golden Kingdom is so much like Ancient Greece, Endymion behaves like ____ as does Mamoru in turn.

I've been away from fandom so long that I'm unaware of who these well-respected fans even are. I've read stories where Silver Millennium!Earth was a medieval setting but they may reflect the Medieval, Gothic or Renaissance period (not necessarily the Classical period that I'm talking about). So in no way am I taking things from fandom to be unchallenged truths. To the contrary, I may be indirectly proving/justifying things found in canon and fandom alike and making it plausible (i.e. "why [I] think the Golden Kingdom was like ancient Greek society.")

so maybe it'd be good to say "this is the way I [i]think[/i] it is because of A, B, and C." So people can see your reasoning and agree or disagree with you if they wish, rather than assume you took it directly from a canon source.

"In many ways, I'm just formalizing what fandom has already established for itself. They are theories on the assumption that the Golden Kingdom shared the same culture as the ancient Greeks."

I've stated that I'm mapping the Greek society onto canon material. For many reasons, the analogy just clicks. In other areas, not so much. There should be no confusion whether or not these details come from canon or our history on the Greeks. Can you elaborate on possible confusing points?

--------

Perhaps you should reread this when it's not so late at night...

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[info]angel_cassiel
2008-02-19 03:59 am UTC (link)
Wow, this was so incredibly informative and well written. It got me all excited because I'm a Classical Studies major and everyone -always- seems to compare Sailor Moon (the general story and characters) to present day social issues and culture. I absolutely love and admire what you've written here and it's such an interesting topic for me because I'm also an Anthropology major and I get to study the past and the people at the same time. You've given me new insight into my beloved Sailor Moon universe. Thank you.

On to the next topic!

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