srz jurnlst ([info]bellichka) wrote in [info]lost_bookclub,
@ 2007-06-30 15:05:00
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Entry tags:discussion post, watership down

Book #2 - Watership Down (discussion post)



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Watership Down


How did you all feel about Watership Down? Love it? I don't know about you guys, but I got pretty attached to those bunnies.

Discuss the book here, or make your own post!

Also, all previous book(s) are fair game, so if you thought of something you'd like to say about Alice, it's never too late!

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[info]candiedheart
2007-06-30 09:59 pm UTC (link)
I can't keep up with you guys =(
Well, I'll just keep on my own track, and catch up :D

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[info]bellichka
2007-07-01 06:41 pm UTC (link)
Awwww! As one of the people I've interacted with the most on here, I was really looking forward to your thoughts :)

Lord of the Flies coming up is an easy read, although Watership Down really picks up!

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[info]candiedheart
2007-07-01 06:51 pm UTC (link)
that's what everyone has been telling me, i've just been super busy at work (10 hour days... now almost 5 days a week are NOT fun, and not allowing me to read at ALL)

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[info]bellichka
2007-07-01 06:57 pm UTC (link)
BLEH that really sucks :(

I couldn't put Watership Down... well, down, for the last hundred pages. It was amazing. It's become one of my favorite books, so I'd definitely recommend finishing it when you can!! :D

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[info]basildestiny
2007-06-30 10:08 pm UTC (link)
LOVED IT! I will confess that I didn't reread it. I had planned on doing so because I loved the book when I read it back in junior high, but that's been 10 or 12 years now. But I just started a new job and the training has left my brain ready to burst every day. When I first read it though, I read it in 2 1/2 days and couldn't put it down.

I grew up watching the movie. So we (hubby and I) did watch the movie again. Cowslip's Warren kind of reminded me of the Others. Just their weird behavior and willingness to let Hazel's group get caught by the snares. But you could also draw similar conclusions with Efrafa with Blackavar being Juliette, and General Woundwort being Ben.

So maybe we could have Kehaar as Desmond or really take your pick.

I like to see Jack as Hazel. Just by lineage that would put Claire as Fiver, but we'd probably more likely go with Desmond since he has the visions. I like Sawyer for Bigwig, a leader, but not quite the chief rabbit, yet unwilling to call Jack leader. Blackberry would be John Locke. Then that would be put Pipkin as Charlie.

So good book, just as Sawyer says.

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 03:29 am UTC (link)
Desmond has always struck me as being highly Fiver-esque for a number of reasons. Mostly during early Season Two (yes, I know he didn't have visions then)- he was very jumpy, very fidgedty, and very paranoid- much like Fiver. And even now I see glimpses of Fiver's personality traits. The scene during FBYE where he starts to remember everything? The mumbling and crazy babble were definitely Fiver-esque.

And there's no denying Jack is Hazel. They have so much in common that I can't even read the book without thinking that Jack would probably do the same thing in Hazel's position.

I never thought of Sawyer as Bigwig, but that does make a lot of sense. Normally I consider El-ahrairah to be Sawyer's closest counterpart, because the scoundrel attitude and "All the world will be your enemy" motif tends to remind me of Sawyer, although I guess hoisting any of the characters to such a lofty title might not be appropriate.

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[info]basildestiny
2007-07-01 06:02 am UTC (link)
Good points about the Fiver-esqueness. Very true!

Elilhrairah is too high a pedestal, I do agree, for Sawyer. Though I can see the connection. The tricks. But then we might have to think that Ben was Elilhrairah because of all the tricks he's managed. Still... it'd need to be someone who was already a legend.

So I went with Bigwig just to give him mortal qualities. :)

And Jack... very hesitant to take the lead. Kind of thrust into the situation/position, but not lacking in the skills to do the job.

The question is... who is Kate? I don't think any of the rabbits are exactly Kate, but who would you speculate?

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 02:49 pm UTC (link)
Hzenthlay (I definitely didn't spell that right, but I'm nowhere near by book to check) used to be the closest I could get to Kate, but I never had a specific reason. (And she has a bit in common with Juliet, as well) The problem with the women of LOST getting appropriate counterparts is that there aren't enough does... And the ones that do exist don't have as much character development as the bucks do. And none of the bucks really suit the women all that much, unfortunately.

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[info]basildestiny
2007-07-01 06:46 pm UTC (link)
HAHAHA I love your icon!

I was thinking maybe she could be Dandelion because of her stories. But I think Blackberry would be either Sun or most likely Rose. Or maybe a combination of the two would equal a Dandelion. The does really aren't developped much, but no need to really develop them anyway. They're just there to make with the kittens. :)

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 07:08 pm UTC (link)
XD I came prepared for this discussion! (WD happens to be one of my favorite books- my current LJ layout agrees with that statement. *snicker*)

Anyway, A lot of the lesser bucks/does seem to sort of be combinations of several characters, which can confuse me, because I always want everyone to have a specific character parallel or none at all when I'm trying to do these sorts of things, because it's easier for me. (When I was trying to find parallels in The Stand I had a hard time of things, because no character can represent a single LOST character with the exception of Flagg and Nadine who are definitely Ben and Juliet, respectively... Buuut that's getting off-tangent.)

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[info]basildestiny
2007-07-01 07:43 pm UTC (link)
Oh wow! That's an awesome layout. WD is just so quoteable!

I have never read or seen The Stand! I'm looking forward to the read. (Actually the only part that I saw was Sam Raimi/Scott Spiegel's cameo in the movie. Which was totally weird. My hubby turned on the tv and there was Sam! I think I was talking and stopped mid-sentence to gawk.)

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[info]talonvaki
2007-07-01 07:34 pm UTC (link)
Hzenthlay (I definitely didn't spell that right, but I'm nowhere near by book to check) used to be the closest I could get to Kate, but I never had a specific reason.

I can see Kate as Hyzenthlay, because I've never been able to figure out who Hyzenthlay ends up with, Hazel or Bigwig :-)

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 07:37 pm UTC (link)
I can see Kate as Hyzenthlay, because I've never been able to figure out who Hyzenthlay ends up with, Hazel or Bigwig :-)

I have that same problem. XD

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[info]talonvaki
2007-07-01 07:41 pm UTC (link)
I also haven't any problem with Sawyer as Bigwig. He might like to be the leader, but in the end, he just isn't. For me, the kicker is when Bigwig says to Woundwart and the Efrafans, "My Chief Rabbit has told me to defend this warren," and I could see Sawyer doing that same sort of thing.

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 07:43 pm UTC (link)
I never really thought of it because I sort of got stuck on early book!Bigwig who comes off as more of a Locke (and El-ahrairah!Sawyer, for some reason), but now I can definitely see the connection.

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[info]bellichka
2007-07-01 07:42 pm UTC (link)
She seems to be emotionally tied to Bigwig, but end up making sexy time with Hazel? Which is sort of the exact opposite of LOST, but it really did throw me. I was like, why the hell wouldn't Hyzenthlay get with hot sexy Bigwig (SRY BUT HE IS) instead of Hazel. Not that Hazel's not a great leader and all, but he's no Bigwig.

*fans self*

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[info]liberalinexile
2007-07-02 03:16 am UTC (link)
OH god...crushing on rabbits...HAHA the symbolism is too much!

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[info]basildestiny
2007-07-01 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Oh good point! The Kate connundrum factor! I like it.

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[info]pirate_eggie
2007-07-02 12:43 am UTC (link)
Watership Down used to be one of my favorite books growing up and even after rereading it at least three times I can't believe I never drew any parallels between the two and the characters in LOST!

Holy crap, this thread is awesome.

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So who is who?
[info]bellichka
2007-07-01 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Jack is Hazel, obviously.

Ben is Woundwort, right down to the parental issues. Then again who doesn't have parental issues on LOST? I think it's interesting that on LOST, it's the Others who offer peace and sort of say "you stay away from us, we'll stay away from you," and it's really Jack who wants to settle things one and for all. In Watership Down, it's Hazel who wants to make peace, and Woundwort who is so pissed off that a fast one's been pulled on him, and can't accept that.

I'm having a really hard time identifying what group is who.... because on LOST we're not just dealing with good guys and bad guys, we're dealing with Dharma, original Others, Ben & Co, our Losties, the outside world, etc. Although I guess in Watership Down, we have the humans, the Sandleford Warren, Cowslip's Warren, Efrafa, and then the final "combination" Warren. I just get irritated when I can't put things into categories nicely and have characters line up :)

Idk, I have more thoughts I'll post later.

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Re: So who is who?
[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 07:27 pm UTC (link)
I just get irritated when I can't put things into categories nicely and have characters line up.

I'm exactly the same way. In fact, I've thought about it so much, I've pretty much gotten frustrated and declared "Hazel is Jack and Fiver is Desmond" and left it at that. It's an odd mix as far as parallels are concerned.

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Re: So who is who?
[info]talonvaki
2007-07-01 07:32 pm UTC (link)
Me too. I gave it a shot below, though...

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[info]talonvaki
2007-07-01 07:30 pm UTC (link)
Hm...I haven't reread the book for years, so it was interesting. Wiki also has a little list of the characters, which I find useful; I'm working off this a bit so as not to forget who's who.

Here's my Lost to Watership comparisons...

Jack = Hazel
Sawyer = Bigwig
(those two were obvious to me; especially the "reluctant leader" aspect)

Desmond = Fiver (the visions)

I hadn't seen it til someone mentioned it here, but Juliet = Blackavar. Despite the gender issue, the way Blackaver strikes back at Woundwart is very like Juliet betraying Ben. So then...

Ben = Woundwart. Who also starts to lose his followers when the Watership rabbits keep besting him.
Sayid = Blackberry. He's the one who sees how to do things that no-one else does.

Now, these may not be obvious, but:
Locke = Holly and
Hurley = Bluebell. Because:
Holly, former Captain of the Sandleford Owsla and a master fighter and tracker.
Bluebell, the jokester, makes jokes when things get bad, so they don't seem as significant.

I see the link between Kate and Hyzenthlay, mainly because like Hyzenthlay, it's left a bit vague as to who she ends up with, Hazel or Bigwig. If we're casting with disregard to gender, I'm inclined to say Kate = Pipkin, who often worries about things that no one else worries about.

Claire = Clover, because she had the first baby/kittens

Richard = Groundsel. I could see him understand the virtue of combining forces, as eventually happened with Efrafa and Watership.

Jin = Dandelion? He had everyone enthralled with his Korean story...even though no one understood it...

Rousseau = Kehaar. With them...but not with them. If that makes any sense.

The best I've got for the Warren of the Snares is the whole Season 2 in the Hatches...where they were almost domesticated (with showers, washing machines and flayrah falling from the sky) but at what cost?

Eh. They don't translate perfectly...but that's what I've come up with.

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 07:41 pm UTC (link)
Rousseau = Kehaar. With them...but not with them. If that makes any sense.

YES! I swear that's been bugging me forever, because I knew there was someone who really suited Kehaar, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

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[info]talonvaki
2007-07-01 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Plus they both have accents!

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[info]kawaiispinel
2007-07-01 07:45 pm UTC (link)
XD And the rabbits pretty much thought Kehaar was insane. (And as far as they were concerned- he was.) Insane, but useful.

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[info]basildestiny
2007-07-01 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Ooo I like Rousseau as Kehaar too because she's always doing things that totally surprise the Others. Much like a bird made out of lightning!

And I really like Locke as Holly. Especially the way he's settled right into staying on the Island (The Sandleford Warren) and then joins up with Efrafah (The Others). And then Ben shoots him, but he miraculously lives (Holly gets his ear torn and nearly killed if Hyzenthlay hadn't helped him escape).

Hurley is definitely Bluebell!

I saw Charlie as Pipkin. Especially with the Desmond/Fiver connection. Fiver was always saying things that unnerved Pipkin, yet they managed to be friends.

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[info]talonvaki
2007-07-01 08:12 pm UTC (link)
Charlie as Pipkin is better than mine. You win there. Especially since Pipkin was supposed to be small...

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[info]bellichka
2007-07-01 08:25 pm UTC (link)
I agree with Kate as Pipkin as well. Charlie as Pipking gives a lot more importance to Charlie than I think he deserves (sorry Charlie-lovers).

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[info]talonvaki
2007-07-02 01:16 am UTC (link)
Well...I don't like using dead/no longer appearing characters in these sorts of things (I also thought about Michael as Blackberry, briefly, very briefly). In the world where Kate = Hyzenthlay then Charlie = Pipkin. But if Kate isn't Hyzenthlay, then I go with Pipkin for her (the whole "we have to go back for Hazel") thing)

And then, too, I rather like Sun = Haystack and Jin = Boxwood. They're the two hutch rabbits...a pair of Himalayans.

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[info]pinkneonchick
2007-07-26 07:11 pm UTC (link)
I know I'm really late on this, but I just finished the book yesterday and I wanted to say that your character match ups are dead on! Especially with Rousseau=Kehaar!! I totally didnt catch that until you said it!

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[info]silverspitfire
2007-07-23 03:31 pm UTC (link)
I'm really glad that this book was included on the book club list - I had never gotten the chance to read it before, and I really enjoyed it!

I can definitely see the connections to the characters you guys have made and haha, Rousseau as Kehaar - I can see that!

I was wondering, though, if elements of the story could be related to the conflict between the Others and Dharma (Cowslip's warren, maybe?). I can a much more coherent argument to this point right after I finished reading it, but I now feel that it's a much better fit to the story of the Losties and the Others (Jack as Hazel and Ben as Woundwort seem the most obvious to me, as has been pointed out).

Sorry for joining the discussion so late - I finished the book a few weeks ago now...*hides*

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[info]tehn
2007-08-27 06:20 pm UTC (link)
Aw, just came across this great group and I've missed one of my favourite books of all time. Anyway, since the discussion's not closed :)

Some very interesting comparisons above especially the less obvious links. I've been trying to think who would fit Campion best, for some reason he was one of the most memorable characters for me. Maybe Mikhail or Juliet. Mikhail because of his loyalty to his group and orders despite showing some doubt about his leader's judgments, his experience in the military and the fact he spends a lot of time away from his main base. Possibly Juliet because she also expresses some doubt over Ben's leadership and is more sympathetic than most to the other camp.

Time to catch up on the other books...

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[info]bellichka
2007-08-27 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Yeeeeay! Love new members!

The reading list/discussion schedule is linked up top, and like you know, discussions are never closed. If you want to see which ones are a good idea to read, and which are okay to skip (if you want to skip), just check out the comments in the discussion posts.

Welcome!!

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[info]tehn
2007-09-20 07:56 pm UTC (link)

Thank you :)

I'm not the fastest of readers but I will gradually get through as much of the list as I can get hold of.

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[info]sitar_tattoo
2008-08-03 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Campion reminded me somewhat of Captain Gault - he's a respectable man within a pretty awful system; the book hints that Bigwig liked him a bit due to his tenacity. In Lost, I really felt the same way about Gault - he was a very admirable man.

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[info]sitar_tattoo
2008-08-03 08:06 pm UTC (link)
I just finished reading this the other day at work - I hid at the back and read the final three chapters... and gosh, what a book. I loved it, but for some reason Kehaar's exit on the way back from Erfafa got me big time. Wow, I got attached to those rabbits!

Everyone's already pointed out Des/Fiver and Jack/Hazel so I'm going to offer this: the destruction of Sandleford Warren is probably going to be the closest thing I can compare to "the Purge". Horrible experience reading that.

Another one - I read some people criticising Lost for its usage (or lack thereof) of female characters within the show. Someone I used to have on my flist said she thought the show offered only two types of woman: harlots and unimportant helpers. I could see what she was getting at - arguably, Adams has done the same with his depiction of the does in this book. Is there, erm, a trace of misogyny running between the two mediums?

Just wanted to ask. =]

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[info]sitar_tattoo
2008-08-03 08:08 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and another one following on from the accusations of misogyny: depending on how you view the book, the plan to capture/liberate the does from Erfafa=Ben's plan to capture/liberate(?) the pregnant woman from the survivors' camp in season three.

Hmmm?

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