you cooked yourself? ([info]bellichka) wrote in [info]lost_bookclub,
@ 2007-06-08 23:45:00
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Entry tags:alice in wonderland, discussion post

Book #1 - Alice in Wonderland (discussion post)
I've been waiting all week to do this!!



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Alice in Wonderland


So what'd you all think of Alice? Feel free to use this post for any discussion you like, or make a new post - all community members have posting access. Subject lines aren't mandatory, but make it easier for a person to find your comment and read/respond to it.

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subject matter for children?
[info]bellichka
2007-06-09 11:38 am UTC (link)
I think it's funny that I get a response from [info]candiedheart in my inbox this morning calling it "one of the most fucked up books I've ever read in my life." I was thinking that this morning as I was remembering the catepillar smoking hookah atop a mushroom. I mean, HELLO. This story was told to a ten year-old girl, and as somebody coming from an age where you can hardly smoke cigarettes on TV, the overt and implied drug references were astounding to me.

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]lavenderk5
2007-06-09 12:52 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. By the time Disey got through with this, it had little to do with anything Carroll wrote. I remember trying to read this when I was a kid and just being very confused. But I did ask my mom about it the other day, as it's her copy from when she was a kid that I'm reading, and I have to agree with her.

We could be wrong, but it I doubt Carroll intended it to be a children's book. It reads like satire, biting satire, and was intended to be a commentary on British politics at the time, where people are acting like fanciful children. as opposed to rational adults. Told to a child yeah, but we'd have to get into what was going on in England at the time to really get it, I'm thinking.

Through the Looking Glass is like this one, only more so.

I did come up with some thoughts about Lost when I was reading this, but it's too early and I think I used up the thoughtful part of my brain already :) I"ll be back later :)

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]liberalinexile
2007-06-10 03:12 am UTC (link)
Does the Disney movie take some events from Looking Glass as well? I was looking for the part in the book with Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum, since I remember that sticking out to me as a kid watching the movie. But it's not in Alice in Wonderland... so did they get it from Looking Glass, or did Disney make it up completely?

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]lavenderk5
2007-06-10 03:46 am UTC (link)
The Disney version combines AIW and TTLG, so Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee are-a comin in Looking Glass. That's the book with the chessmen too :)

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]liberalinexile
2007-06-10 03:50 am UTC (link)
Ahh, sweet... I knew there were other parts of the movie I didn't read in the book. Thanks :)

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 03:34 am UTC (link)
The thing with Alice is that it was told to the real-life Alice, just like he'd told tons of stories to her before. Except this time she asked him to write it down. He did edit it quite heavily before it was published, so it's possible that in those edits he added the satirical elements, as well as the drug references and such.

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]lavenderk5
2007-06-10 03:48 am UTC (link)
Yeah. I'm sure things got added in the editing process.

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]rantingitalian
2007-06-11 08:29 pm UTC (link)
I read the Alice stories for my "Literature and the Child" class this past semester, so I managed to dig out some of my notes on the different versions, which might be helpful.

In our class we first read the original version that Carroll gave to Alice as a Christmas present (it was a copy of her book, so it had all of his illustrations and stuff too). The original version was called Alice's Adventures Underground. Most of the actual text is the same for Wonderland (just expanded), except for a few parts like the Mouse's tail/tale.

Many of the most famous parts of Wonderland were added into that version and were not in the original Wonderland. The chapters Pig and Pepper (with the Duchess and the Cheshire Cat) and the Mad Tea Party were added into Wonderland. The Mock Turtle's song is different in Wonderland and there are extra songs. The trial is also much longer in Wonderland and in that version Alice must give evidence too.

Strangely enough, the hookah smoking caterpillar is in Underground, but I can't remember off the top of my head about any of the other drug references.

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Re: subject matter for children?
[info]candiedheart
2007-06-09 02:01 pm UTC (link)
LoL, I pretty much wrote my review.

I'm going to try and get through it at some point, but not in time for this review.
I almost can't take it.


Talking mouses and running in circles trying to get dry.
This book skips around so much I can barely keep up with where it's going.

Maybe that's how it applies to lost ;)

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General impressions
[info]silverspitfire
2007-06-09 09:03 pm UTC (link)
It had been a long time since I last read Alice in Wonderland - I recall having a large, illustrated version which I really wish I still had (there was this great illustration of the mouse with the poem on its tail)...

Anyway, moving on...

Thinking about Lost, I'm sure many have hit upon the idea that the island is a sort of Wonderland - I can definitely see how this would be true given what we've seen so far. In regards to how season 1, I always thought of the hatch as the "rabbit hole" and Jack's father has already been established as "the white rabbit". I dunno, I just got the impression that even though it may appear to be nonsense at first, there's really something to it all...or I could be way off the mark ;).

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Re: General impressions
[info]lavenderk5
2007-06-09 09:09 pm UTC (link)
I caught the same thing about the nonsense. When I get home I'll put up my thoughts about this :)

Also, I love that icon! :)

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Re: General impressions
[info]silverspitfire
2007-06-10 03:54 am UTC (link)
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on nonsense! I think the concept of it was something that I didn't really appreciate until I re-read Alice. I don't know why, but the fact that it's so illogical doesn't bother me - it's almost so "off the wall", as it were, that it holds itself together as a story.

*grins* It's one of my favorites out of the many that [info]mysticxf has made...

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quotation
[info]bellichka
2007-06-09 09:30 pm UTC (link)
"The adventures first… explanations take such a dreadful time."

LOL is this taken directly from the LOST rulebook or what!

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Re: quotation
[info]krysteener
2007-06-10 01:27 am UTC (link)
LMAO That is so completely LOST!

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Re: quotation
[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 01:34 am UTC (link)
I loved it so much! I found it on a quotations site online as being from Alice in Wonderland, so now I want to find it in my book!

BUT. Watership Down first :)

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Re: quotation
[info]liberalinexile
2007-06-10 03:08 am UTC (link)
Wow... that quote is absolutely perfect. I don't remember what part of the text this is in, either...

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Re: quotation
[info]silverspitfire
2007-06-10 04:04 am UTC (link)
LOL, that's Lost all right!

`Explain all that,' said the Mock Turtle.

`No, no! The adventures first,' said the Gryphon in an impatient tone: `explanations take such a dreadful time.'

From chapter 10: 'THE LOBSTER QUADRILLE'

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Re: quotation
[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 01:04 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for finding that!!

lol @ the mock turtle..... god this book is fucked up.

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[info]krysteener
2007-06-10 01:33 am UTC (link)
Yeah, the book was really crazy. As I was reading I couldn't help thinking that I got it from the children's section. That and that Alice must have ADD or something.

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[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 01:35 am UTC (link)
I think Lewis Carroll has ADD for real.

Idk if I can stomach Through the Looking Glass, but that's not for another 7 months :)

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[info]liberalinexile
2007-06-10 02:43 am UTC (link)
I know I got seriously p.o.'ed when reading this! It was so illogical and nonsensical, I wanted to throw it out the window! I had hoped Looking Glass would be better...but I guess not?

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Re: quotation
[info]pinkneonchick
2007-06-10 02:26 am UTC (link)
I wish I had the time to read Alice but I didn't. I have started Watership Down, though! I'm excited to get reading and take part in discussions :)... maybe I'll get to read Alice when on vacation in two weeks!

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Re: quotation
[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 02:32 am UTC (link)
Alice goes by really really quick! Seriously, mine was about 100 pages and had tons of pictures, and it took maybe an hour total to read. I'm a fast reader, but it still shouldn't take too long.

I need to get Watership Down still :X

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Re: quotation
[info]liberalinexile
2007-06-10 03:07 am UTC (link)
I'm so excited... I have a pretty good start on Watership Down. I admit, it starts a bit slow for me, but once the action picks up, you get hooked hardcore! Darned if I'm not emotionally involved with every one of those little rabbits!

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[info]liberalinexile
2007-06-10 03:06 am UTC (link)
Hmmm...I did anticipate a much longer review of Alice, but frankly I found it annoying as all hell to read. And I agree 100% with everyone above who expressed incredulity at it being marketed as a children's book... WTF?!

But I digress...

As I read, really the only thing that stuck out to me was the Mad Hatter's mention of time, and how it is not progressing as Alice is accustomed to:


Alice had been looking over his shoulder with some curiosity. “What a funny watch!” she remarked. “It tells the day of the month, and doesn’t tell what o’clock it is!”
“Why should it?” muttered the Hatter. “Does your watch tell you what year it is?”
“Of course not,” replied Alice very readily: “but that’s because it stays the same year for such a long time together.”
“Which is just the case with mine,” said the Hatter.

So it would appear that in Wonderland, days are either extraordinarily long and/or they are not the main measurement of time as they are in our world. If the Lost island is a metaphor for a Wonderland of sorts, then it's a strong possibility that time on the island (or at least, the CONCEPT of time) is not progressing as it is in the rest of the world.

Which is not an earth-shattering theory, as it has already been strongly indicated in several forums. I think I'm done :)


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[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 03:31 am UTC (link)
I love that! :)

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[info]silverspitfire
2007-06-10 04:00 am UTC (link)
Ooh, I like that idea a lot - I wonder what sort of implications that will have for the Losties (as we've seen, the future isn't so bright for some of them...right now, at least ;)).

There's definitely something screwy going on with time on that island...

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[info]kokanh
2007-06-10 03:25 am UTC (link)
I haven't read Alice in the LONGEST time, and really don't have the time to go through it again... though, I don't remember, is Through the Looking Glass a part of this book or a different story altogether? Because I remember the walrus and the carpenter, and that was pretty fucked up. I remember thinking it migth have been a huge metaphor for religion/government, but I could be wrong.

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[info]bellichka
2007-06-10 03:31 am UTC (link)
The Looking Glass, from what I understand, is another "Alice in Wonderland" story. They're often sold together, i.e. in the same book, but sometimes not.

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[info]lavenderk5
2007-06-10 03:51 am UTC (link)
Disney confused things by putting both books in the same movie. The giant talking flowers are in Looking Glass too.

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Thoughts.
[info]ridiculii
2007-06-10 05:20 pm UTC (link)
As I read it, it's definitely a satire about Victorian society from the eyes of a child (as evidenced especially by the illustrations by John Tenniel, who was a cartoonist for Punch magazine - in fact, in "Through The Looking Glass," the man dressed in white paper is drawn as Benjamin Disraeli wrapped in newspapers). Yes, Lewis Carroll told Alice Liddell stories and incorporated the stories into the book, but I think it's much more an issue of being a satire firsthand, and then a children's book (if at all). It's true that if you really want to enjoy the book, you should be aware of the social milieu of the times.

As for the book being illogical, I believe nearly the opposite. Carroll was also devoted to puzzles and logic, and this shows in the book (thank god for my annotated version for catching EVERYTHING) in very clever wordplays (mainly of the conversations Alice has are disguised logic exercises - take, for example, the "Lessons"/lessens discussion with the Mock Turtle + the Griffin and the Mad Hatter's relationship with time).

As for its significance to "Lost," I think more than direct reference to the book, I saw much more in translating the general idea to the story - ending up in a Wonderland (the Island) where strange and mysterious things happen - and you can never, ever be sure what would happen next. The direct references, such as the White Rabbit and Looking Glass, are widely-known images that the public at large can connect with.

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Re: Thoughts.
[info]annspal
2007-06-12 04:20 am UTC (link)
...the general idea to the story - ending up in a Wonderland (the Island) where strange and mysterious things happen - and you can never, ever be sure what would happen next....

While not completely predictable, there is a level of cause and effect in Alice's Wonderland. DRINK ME, EAT ME and all that. Alice isn't sure who she is anymore when talking to the caterpillar. One of her tasks is to find a balance and control her size shifts.

That's part of what's always drawn me to the LOST story. I want to think there's a way for our lost souls to find a right fit. (Hopefully with being able to avoid a Charlie level sacrifice.)

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[info]staplerinjello
2007-06-10 05:41 pm UTC (link)
It would really suck if "Lost" has the same ending as this book. Like, if it turns out that Jack's just been having a really crazy dream..

I do think it's interesting that the White Rabbit is working for someone else. So if the White Rabbit of the Lost episode refers to Jack's dad hallucination (thanks Wikipedia), then perhaps this hallucination is working for (or originated from) someone else.. like Jacob.

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[info]bellichka
2007-08-06 02:29 am UTC (link)
I think it's been established by Damon/Carlton that Jack's father's appearance on the Island was a manifestation of the smoke monster (like Eko's brother). The producers said between the first and the second season that we saw the smoke monster and we didn't know we were seeing it, and then I'm pretty sure they confirmed that the appearance of Christian was indeed ol' Smokey's doing.

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[info]bellichka
2007-08-06 02:27 am UTC (link)
Just wanted to come back here and comment again - I saw the Alice in Wonderland movie last night while I was babysitting, and HOLY SHIT. The movie is so trippy.... I'm almost concerned for children who watch it - I mean, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. The whole thing is even more nonsensical than the book. At least with the book you sort of understand Alice's thought process and motivations, which give it a semblance of coherency and a plot, but the movie has been trimmed to just random adventures. Didn't really like it, but you gotta love the Cheshire Cat :) And the queen!!

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