lojbangovt ([info]lojbangovt) wrote in [info]lojban,
@ 2008-04-21 07:40:00
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Experiences/anecdotes of casual Lojban learners
A handful of my friends (some of which are Ivy League-level, some of which are average and some inbetween) got together on a weekly basis to try to learn Lojban. This failed, and I've noticed that the people who -do- learn Lojban tend to have very high levels of natural intelligence, to the point that they need to hear a concept once without elaboration and can cement that concept from there onward. Reading Lojban For Beginners (which really should be titled "Accelerated Lojban") felt that way--it was like reading a math textbook, because every concept would be stated maybe once or twice, sometimes awkwardly or (ironically) unclearly, and then left behind.

The pronunciation was extremely easy and many concepts made sense. However, even when we got to the 6th chapter it was still impossible to form basic sentences beyond "mi'e .persyn." In most languages, I can memorize vocabulary and fill in the grammatical blanks later... but in Lojban that's impossible. I have to learn the grammar before I learn the vocabulary. Whenever I've looked for Lojban flashcards, they seem to work like this: "x1 is x2 at x3" or something similar.

Additionally, having vocabulary made up from the vocabulary of other words seems like it would be a good idea, but in practice I'm not sure if having "prenu" as a combination of "person" and "ren" helped, -especially- not in the same way that interlingua's/Esperanto's/other European-biased loanwords help. I'm not sure what you can do to improve on this situation, however, and I'm sure you've debated the pros/cons of this vigorously. The vocabulary isn't nearly as much of an issue as the grammar.

And, yeah, back to the grammar. I found it extremely hard to discuss or explain concepts to other Lojban-learners, especially when the book will basically follow this format: "Okay, this is the [x]. For the logicians in the audience, you can basically consider this [y]. For the mathematicians in the audience, you can think of this as [z]." I think constructed languages are an inherently geeky thing to begin with, but those types of explanations struck me as totally out of touch with what constitutes a "beginner".

When we came across concepts that ended up being obstacles, it reminded me of learning math at a higher level, with little help. The concepts are explained in very few sources (I had to look up words like "selbri" and "sumti" on the Lojban wiki because the Lojban For Beginners definition was so unclear), this site is incredibly convoluted and impossible for the uninitiated to navigate (forget asking questions--none of the people in my circle have used a mailing list besides me), and we couldn't speak Lojban outside of our circle because everyone on this site seems to have picked the language up at rapid pace. I think the primary issue here is that most people who have learned Lojban so far at least seem to be extremely intelligent compared to the average person that may learn a language and so it's just expected that lots of things are absorbed at rapid pace (compared to how quickly the average college student absorbs them) and/or understood intuitively.

Finally, I'd like to say something about Lojban as an IAL. From what I know of the language so far, it looks like it would be the ideal IAL by a large margin, but the main issues I see facing it are its complexity and inaccessibility. I've read several discussions about this, and from what I understand Lojbanists usually excuse its complexity at the expense of giving IAL-status a second priority. I think that it's -much- better than Interlingua or Esperanto in that regard, which to me seem like "General European" languages; a somewhat questionable goal, because so many people in Europe speak common languages anyway. Lojban has the advantage of being an inherently better language--if its ease of learning was significant enough that it was comparable or better to a non-European student learning Interlingua or Esperanto, I think it would be a serious contender for the IAL.



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Thanks!
[info]adamgarrigus
2008-04-21 01:24 pm UTC (link)
Oh, this is good. Thanks for your well thought-out, carefully written, helpful comments. I have some response ideas, but I'll stew them for a bit & see if someone more knowledgeable than me can better express them. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

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Lobjan and Esperanto
(Anonymous)
2008-04-21 06:24 pm UTC (link)
I think the biggest case for Esperanto is not its structure or vocabulary but the fact that it is so widely used. There is a worldwide diaspora of Esperanto speakers, and plenty of social structures you can use to axccess them. Incidentally, I'm not sure that Esperanto is as European as it looks at first sight. It has some of the characteristics of Turkish in work formation, and has plenty of support in African and Asian countries. A good way in is via www.esperanto.net

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[info]mungojelly
2008-04-24 10:15 am UTC (link)
Wow. First of all, thank you for the energy and attention you've put into Lojban. You absolutely have a lot to offer our community, if you're interested.

"Lojban for Beginners" seems like a bit of a misnomer, I'll agree, but you should remember it in its historical context: For years before LfB came out, the only way to learn Lojban was from the refgram (that's how I learned). For years before that, there were no full-length books at all on how to speak Lojban. So it has gradually been getting easier, even if it is not yet, alas, easy.

I have been thinking seriously for a long time now about how to teach Lojban, and I believe that the greatest difficulty with those two books-- the Big Red Book (refgram) and Lojban for Beginners-- has to do not with their methods, but with the vast terrain that they each attempt to cover. They do a fine job of explaining all of the features of the language, but the last thing you want to do to a beginner is confront them with ALL of the features of the language!!

For instance you say "even when we got to the 6th chapter it was still impossible to form basic sentences". The most basic sentence form in Lojban consists of just one word, a "brivla" (bridi zei valsi, relationship word). The gismu are one kind of brivla. So any gismu makes a perfectly good sentence, all by itself. You can just go ahead and say "mlatu", meaning "cat!", or "xamgu", meaning "good!" These sentences are not considered fragmentary or informal; they are appropriate in Lojbanic discourse of all sorts. I think it would be healthy for beginners to spend a while just speaking in gismu, like "xamgu .i mlatu .i gleki" (gleki = happy), a sort of pidgin/babytalk, so that they can start using the language communicatively before diving into its confusing corners.

My strategy going forward is exactly the opposite of the broad, theoretical, inclusive exploration of the existing teaching texts. Instead I'm aiming to construct for beginners an absolutely simple kiddie-pool Lojban in which they can immediately and constructively immerse themselves. If I was teaching in person, I would go for a long while using only the sumti "ti" "ta" and "tu" (this here, that there, that yonder), pointing directly to objects. I would point to a red thing and say "ti xunre" and then point to a blue thing and say "ti blanu" and then point to something that's either red or blue and test the students asking, "ti mo?", what's this, what's this do?

I'm afraid that good explanations of what a "sumti" is are hard to find because sumti are to a Lojbanist as water to a fish. That's not an excuse, just an explanation. I have been writing informally various places and developing my own ability to explain these sorts of fundamental qualities of our language. The simplest things are often the hardest to explain; their very simplicity makes it hard for words to penetrate them. I've been considering how to explain "sumti" since you asked, and I've started to put a few ideas together. It goes to the core of what language is, of course. And to explain well from a Lojbanic perspective just these few concepts of sumti, bridi, tanru, etc., would be to teach most of what Lojban is. So, yes, we should work on that. :)

I am dedicated to building a gentle onramp to Lojban. One perspective/project I've put together with that aim is Cniglic: [info]cniglic. The idea of Cniglic is to begin teaching Lojban by teaching the attitudinal system embedded in English, so it can be used right away in fluent communication. I'm also beginning to encourage people to create materials teaching the colors; I am trying to instigate what I'm calling a "skari ctuca cedra", a Color Teaching Age, because I believe that the colors could be a perfect brightly inviting introduction to those new to our language, and one which could be easily built upon. Here's what very little has been done on that project so far: http://jbotcan.org/jbo/res/431.html

Thanks again for the efforts you've made. Lojban is growing, living and succeeding and it can definitely benefit from your contributions and attention.

mu'o mi'e .bret.

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[info]pne
2008-04-24 10:37 am UTC (link)
I'm afraid that good explanations of what a "sumti" is are hard to find because sumti are to a Lojbanist as water to a fish. That's not an excuse, just an explanation.

Another reason is that Lojban grammar is fundamentally rather different to (most?) natlang grammars, so translating, say, "sumti" into "noun" and "selbri" into "verb" doesn't work very well.

pe'i You pretty much have to learn the basics of Lojban grammar to be able to understand bridi, selbri, brivla, sumti, and friends.

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[info]mungojelly
2008-04-24 09:12 pm UTC (link)
I think that the wisest way to explain the concept "selbri" would be to explain the whole place structure of "bridi". I didn't even realize for a looooooong time that "selbri" means "se bridi"!! "bri" is a rafsi (short form) for "bridi", and appears in both of the words "selbri" (se zei bridi, the second place of bridi) and "brivla" (bridi zei valsi, bridi word).

The relationship of "bridi" is a three part relationship. The party of the first part is what we call a "bridi" in English. A bridi is a piece of text, a sequence of words. For instance here's a bridi: "mlatu vau". {mlatu} means "cat", and you can always optionally terminate a bridi in Lojban by saying "vau". Here's another one: "mi klama le zarci". Those four words in themselves are a bridi. The sequence of text itself is the bridi. (It's different from "sentence" because more than one bridi can make up a complex sentence.)

The other two parts are components of that text sequence. The text sequence is constructed out of two different parts, a selbri (se bridi) and terbri (te bridi). The selbri is the part of the text which tells what's going on, what's being explained, what drama is taking place, what the relationship is. The terbri is a list of who takes part in that relationship, and what roles they play. The purpose of a bridi is to distinguish the terbri (the referents being discussed) from everything else in the universe, and describe them as relating to each other in the way described by the selbri.

For demonstration purposes we can take a very simple selbri, the gismu "blanu" which means "blue". In Lojban the selbri is fundamental: Bridi are allowed to have an empty terbri, but there must be a selbri for there to be a bridi at all. Arguments to go into the terbri must be marked somehow, for instance they might begin with the word "lo"; there is no marking on the selbri at all. ("cu" is sometimes used to separate the selbri from what comes before it, but it is a separator and not a marker-- for instance you may not begin a sentence with "cu".) when you are constructing a sentence in Lojban, therefore, to make something the selbri you just say it. If you just say "blanu", then you have just started a bridi and declared that the selbri is "blanu", that the story of this piece of text is about blueness.

Lojbanic color words were once two part relationships between a color and a standard, but that is now long mostly forgotten. In today's Lojban, there is only one numbered argument in the terbri of a bridi whose selbri is "blanu": Place number one, x1, which is something which is blue. If you have just painted yourself blue, then it would make sense to say: "mi blanu". Those two words together form a bridi. The word "mi" is a word that always refers to the person who's speaking it; by itself it is a "sumti", an argument which goes into the terbri list. So once you've said "mi", what you have in your bridi so far is a terbri table which says "x1: mi"; it's not yet a valid bridi, because a bridi in Lojban must also have a selbri. When you say the brivla (bridi word) "blanu" next, with no marking, that becomes the selbri, and the whole thing then becomes a valid bridi showing that you are blue.

So that's what a bridi is: A textual expression with two parts, the part that shows what's going on, and the part that shows who is participating. Pretty simple, really. But not necessarily easy to explain. :)

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Colours
[info]krilltish
2008-04-25 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Question: how would one identify by what standard that something is a certain colour? I do not want to complicate the conversation too much, I just want to know which sumti tcita (a word that tacks another argument place on the relationship) to use and how to specify the standard. Would I just say/write "mi" after the sumti tcita (so it means "by my standard(s)") or would I need something more complicated?

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Re: Colours
[info]Twey [typekey.com]
2008-08-24 06:35 am UTC (link)
Slightly more complicated: use the sumti tcita ('sumti label') "ga'a" meaning 'as observed by...': "ti blani ga'a mi" -- 'this is blue, as observed by me.'

sumti tcita are basically a way of attaching new places to a selbri that aren't in the default place list. They're very useful, and very easy to use: just put a sumti tcita anywhere in the bridi, and follow it directly with a sumti. It doesn't modify place order.

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[info]mixis
2008-10-25 04:29 pm UTC (link)
Your method of pointing to objects, naming them, and then testing the student reminds me of a method called TPR that I've used with a lot of success in my own language learning.

The basics of the method is for the teacher to demonstrate an action while saying the word(s) for that action in the imperative form (ie. as a command), and then prompting the student to repeat that action by repeating that very same imperative. Here's an example from a good introductory article on TPR:

"Suppose that you want to begin learning Turkish, and you have a Turkish friend who wants to trade an hour of Turkish for an hour of English a couple times a week. During your first hour of Turkish, your Turkish friend could say "stand up" as he stands up and gestures for you to stand up. Then he could say "sit down" as he sits and gestures for you to sit, and then he could go through "stand up" and "sit down" a couple more times while modeling it for you.

At some point fairly soon, your friend just says "stand up" without himself standing up, but you now know to stand up when you hear that, so you do. Congratulations! You just responded to your first word of Turkish for which you didn't have to have help... By the end of your first hour, you will likely be able to respond to between 30 and 45 new words in Turkish! You should tape record your session, and then by reviewing it several times before your next language session and either physically responding to the commands or just imagining doing it you should be able to fly through a review with your friend the next time you get together."

That was from http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/rw/tprmax.htm

Some more good articles on TPR:

http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/other/krashentpr.htm
http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/other/ashertpr.htm
http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/other/ashertpr.htm
http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/rw/firstday.htm

There's even more on TPR and on language learning in general on that website:

http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/articles.htm

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Suggestions
[info]krilltish
2008-05-10 01:40 am UTC (link)
I had/have (impefect) the same problem. However, I think that this was, in large part, because I did not understand the basic concept of sumti, selbri, etc. I actually understood the last few lessons (around the ones with causes explained and after) more than the first few. I still have problems with the articles (especially [lo]).

I found it helpful to reread the whole thing and make sure that I understood and remembered large portions of all the lessons that I had again gone over.

Perhaps it would be helpful to go over concepts such as vocatives, attitidinals, evidentials, discoursives, etc.; basically, those words that are fairly universal/intuitive. A helpful website for this is http://community.livejournal.com/cniglic (sorry, I do not know how to link here). Also, you might want to focus on words such as causation (though only the basic concepts, such as the different types- not like adding [bo] after the word), negation, tenses (though the event contours may be difficult to follow), pro-sumti, etc.

Thanks for the comment and making me feel like I am not the only one. How did you manage to get friends interested in Lojban as well? Everyone that I tell about it soon tell me to stop telling.

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Re: Suggestions
[info]pne
2008-05-10 06:40 am UTC (link)
I still have problems with the articles (especially [lo]).

It doesn't help that usage of articles has changed, and I think final usage still hasn't been completely hammered down, let alone formalised officially.

So while {le} was probably the most common article when I started looking at Lojban, {lo} seems a lot more common now, and there was a period when I saw a fair bit of {lo'e}...

A helpful website for this is http://community.livejournal.com/cniglic (sorry, I do not know how to link here)

To link to a LiveJournal account or community, do it like this: <lj user="cniglic"> (which gives this: [info]cniglic). For general links to URLs, you can either use normal HTML (<a href="http://www.example.com/">link text</a>), or just put the URL in the running text (if you use auto-formatting, which is the default for comments and is a possible choice for entries).

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