neoanjou ([info]neoanjou) wrote in [info]lojban,
@ 2008-03-25 17:36:00
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Webcomic translation from a newbie
Hi, (or should that be coi?)

I've only recently started to read about lojban [although for a good while I've been calling it lobjan!] and the idea of the language intrigues me quite a lot - I like the idea of how the structure of words seems very much akin to the invocation of sub-programs in the language (IDL) I use to program day-to-day.

Anyway - in the manner of language beginners everywhere I've decided to undertake an ambitious project as my first translation attempt - 'Darths and Droids', a Star Wars parody webcomic. The first episode has already been translated into German, Greek, Spanish, French, Italian, Hebrew, Dutch, Norweigan, Russian, Sweedish, Klingon, oh - and the Pirate dialect of English.

Would people mind if I posted my efforts and questions here? I'm likely to make a hell of a lot of mistakes to begin with, but hopefuly I'll pick up the basics relatively quickly - it all seems logical enough ;).

Anyway - assuming your approval - here is my attempt at the first sentence of speech (I'll attempt more in later posts, but I didn't want to be scary to begin with) - I've used the word lists available on the lobjan.org website, the list of everyday Lojban (here) and the very good Lojban for beginners lessons.

GM: Right. Everyone listening? Here's the campaign intro.
je'e .i be'e rodo .i ti prosa le co'a clali'u

Here I've coined the term clali'u (long-travel) to mean 'campaign' - this is based on the word jdali'u (religion-travel) to mean something approximating 'mission', used on the everyday lojban page.

My understand of what I have written would be something along the lines of:
je'e - 'roger' - apparently this would be used in the context of 'right' or 'uh-huh'.
be'e - 'request to send a message' - I spent ages trying to find a verb for 'listen', but I think that was just viewing through English eyes. This seems to convey the meaning, but I'm not sure whether one would say it in the middle of a block of speech.
rodo - 'everyone' - I'm not sure if this is welded to the previous, i.e. whether I am actually saying 'I request to send a message to everyone' or just 'request to send a message... everyone...'
ti prosa le co'a clali'u - 'this prose [is about] the starting of [the] campaign'. I'm particularly worried about my use of 'this' here.

Anyway - sorry for using this community as a free source of tuition.

Neil.

EDITED because my HTML links got screwed up.

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[info]pne
2008-03-25 06:51 pm UTC (link)
in the manner of language beginners everywhere I've decided to undertake an ambitious project as my first translation attempt

And in the manner of language beginners everywhere undertaking an ambitious project as their first translation attempt, before they can tell their brivla from their sumti, I consider that rather inadvisable. But well.

je'e - 'roger' - apparently this would be used in the context of 'right' or 'uh-huh'.

I understand it as "I have understood what you have just said".

So it's a bit of a non-sequitur if nothing has been said previously.

be'e - 'request to send a message' - I spent ages trying to find a verb for 'listen', but I think that was just viewing through English eyes. This seems to convey the meaning

Sounds good to me!

I think most of COI is sadly underused. (Not that I've had much exposure to Lojban, let alone spoken - rather than written - Lojban, where such "protocol words" are more useful.)

I'm not sure if this is welded to the previous, i.e. whether I am actually saying 'I request to send a message to everyone' or just 'request to send a message... everyone...'

Since {be'e} is in COI, what comes after it is the person you're addressing, so you're saying something like "All of you: I want to send a message".

ti prosa le co'a clali'u - 'this prose [is about] the starting of [the] campaign'. I'm particularly worried about my use of 'this' here.

Perhaps {dei} "this utterance" or {di'e} "next utterance" are more fitting. {ti} is something you can (at least conceptually) point to, AFAIK.

I think you probably want a NU in there, though -- perhaps {di'e prosa lo nu co'a clali'u}. Otherwise you're talking about someone that clali'us rather than an event of clali'uing.

What's the place structure of {clali'u}, by the way? Something along the lines of "x1 embarks on a campaign via route x2 using means/vehical x3"? In which case, {le co'a clali'u} would be "the/a person who is embarking on a campaign", which is probably not what the GM is talking about -- he's talking about the campaign as such, not a person who's embarking on one.

Perhaps you want something more specific than {prosa}, though?

What about {ninja'o}, which NORALUJV says is "introduce [of concepts]"? Though that doesn't seem to have a place for the actual introduction (only for the introducer, the audience, and the concept introduced), so I'm not sure how to tie the "here" into it.

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[info]mungojelly
2008-03-26 01:12 am UTC (link)
Of course you're welcome to ask for help here. .i .ui fi'i ninpre

"je'e" is in my experience used as a very bland acknowledgement; it's like "OK, yes, I heard what you just said." One place "je'e" is traditional is in response to "ki'e" (thank you, where in English you would say "you're welcome"). If you especially agreed with what was just said you'd be more likely to say ".ie", so when you say "je'e" it's more about acknowledging than agreeing. I'm not sure what the "Right." in the comic means, so it's your call whether that's a good translation. :)

I think you would be safer to go with "ju'i" than with "be'e". I haven't seen "be'e" used much yet, so I can't say what connotations it has. "ju'i" on the other hand has been used quite a bit (in fact it was in the title of a journal, "ju'i lobypli"), and it definitely has this sense that's like, "Hey! Listen up! Pay attention to me now! Hey you!", which is what you're looking for here.

Yes, "be'e" does become welded to the following sumti. "be'e" is in a selma'o (selcmavo, cmavo category) called "COI", along with "coi" and "ju'i" and "fi'i" and so forth. The COI cmavo are used for addressing statements, saying who it is that you're talking to. The blandest of them is "doi", which just means "this is who I'm addressing." "coi" addresses someone and also greets them, "fi'i" addresses someone and welcomes them, etc.

Selma'o COI is unusually forgiving in its grammar; you can address almost anything. You can use any sumti, such as a pro-sumti, "coi do" hello you, or a name starting with "la", either a cmevla or a bridi used as a name: "coi la alis." "coi la cinri" "coi la terpa be tu'a lo'e cribe" hello Alice, hello Interesting, hello Scared Of Bears. You can also use COI cmavo with just a bare cmevla, like "coi .alis.", which is unusual. The terminator for a COI phrase is "do'u", which can become necessary in some of these cases: "xu do doi la terpa be tu'a lo'e cribe do'u terpa lo'e smacu ji'a" Are you, O Scared Of Bears, scared of mice, also? (Without the "do'u", cribe and terpa run together to make a tanru meaning "bear kind of scared.")

I'm going to send this much & then come back with a comment on the last bridi. :)

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[info]mungojelly
2008-03-26 08:55 am UTC (link)
"ti" is probably not correct. "ti" is mostly for a physical object that you can actually point to. (It's more useful in person than online.) One option in most situations where you're tempted to say "ti" is to simply leave the place blank, or (almost-equivalently) to fill it with the empty-place marker "zo'e". "ti" is only more specific than "zo'e" in the case where there's something you can point to, if you think about it. You should get used to leaving blank space where you're not giving specific referents; Lojban's ideas of reference and anaphora are slightly different than what you're used to. :)

In the case where you're introducing what you're about to say, it's usual to use "di'e", as [info]pne suggested. "di'e" refers to the next utterance spoken after the one that it's in, or "the following".

"prosa" is a rarely used word; I had to look it up, all I remembered is that the keyword is "prose" (a four place gismu, huh!). I'm not sure whether it's correct; I haven't seen "prosa" used enough to say for sure what it means. Off the top of my head, for this case I might use "ciksi" myself: "di'e ve ciksi lo nu co'a clali'u" or (the same thing arranged differently) "ciksi lo nu co'a clali'u kei fo di'e"

Lujvo-making is a complicated art. The lujvo "clali'u" seems well-formed and is rather pretty. I'm not sure exactly what "campaign" is supposed to mean in this context? I feel like the most likely seljvo (lujvo meaning) of "clali'u" would be a journey over a long distance (as opposed to, say, a journey by one with long toenails). You're safer making a tanru, which is intrinsically vague & so less hazardous, having a sort of plausible deniability. "clani litru" is definitely a "litru", a voyage of a traveller along a route, but relates to longness in some unspecified open-ended way. "clali'u" is a word with some particular definition, to be decided over time by the Lojban community. Inventing tanru on the spot is ordinary, but inventing a lujvo for a particular expression is tricky. If you do invent a lujvo, you should put the word "za'e" before it, like "lo nu co'a za'e clali'u" -- that marks it as your invention.

.i ke'u fi'i do noi cnino

mu'o mi'e la bret.

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