Kelsey ([info]thiefgirl) wrote in [info]ljbahai,
@ 2006-07-08 22:54:00
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Thanks to the guidance of a friend of mine, I've realized that the Baha'i faith is almost perfect for me. I just have one last question before I completely convert. As informative as my friend is, even she is having troubles answering my question. I have one major principle that I don't want to compromise. I want to be cremated when I die. I understand and respect the belief that cremation is not natural, unlike decaying, and I've read Abdu'l-Baha's  Wisdom of Burying the Dead, but I know cremation is right for me. Does that mean I can't be Baha'i, if I'm so dedicated to having my body burned after I die? I hear what Abdu'l-Baha says about how " if you consign this body to the flames, it will pass immediately into the mineral kingdom and will be kept back from its natural journey through the chain of all created things", but isn't it the spirit that is important? I mean, after you pass, your body ceases to be a temple for your spirit.
Sorry about how rambly that was. Basically what I'm asking is, if I convert to Baha'i, can I still be cremated? I know it is against religious law, but that one law is the only thing keeping me from converting.


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[info]territory_gal
2006-07-09 05:42 am UTC (link)
Hello! :)

The simple answer to your question is that you can do whatever you want. No one is going to stop you from being cremated, the LSA is not going to check up on you or hassle you about your postmortem plans. And really, how you follow Baha'i teachings (or not follow them) is between you and God.

But here's something to consider. I am a Baha'i because I believe that Baha'u'llah is the Promised One, the Messenger of God for this day and age. And if that is true, if Baha'u'llah really is Who He says He is, then I also believe in His Laws. Even if they don't make sense to me -- and oh boy, I could write a volume on how things don't make sense to me, LOL -- and even if I don't like it, I still try to follow His Laws because they come from God, and I trust He knows what's right for me. (the key phrase is "try to", I slip up more often than not!)

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense -- hopefully someone else will give you a better answer. But I say, if you are truly sincere about wanting to be a Baha'i, follow your heart and pray for guidance. You'll know what to do. :)

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[info]euqsam
2006-07-09 05:47 am UTC (link)
The purpose of religion is to educate and enrich the soul. The body is an important vehicle, a supreme example of the power of God and the cage in which your soul sings for its initial progress in the worlds of God.

So. What's the answer? Well, here's my thought:

If you willfully break only one law in your Bahá'í existence, you will have done far better than any of the rest of us. And you don't have to make the final decision for the rest of your life! Your decisions are between you and God, and not for any of us to judge.

Welcome.

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[info]bery
2006-07-09 06:01 am UTC (link)
if you consign this body to the flames, it will pass immediately into the mineral kingdom and will be kept back from its natural journey through the chain of all created things

Honestly, I think that doesn't entirely apply in North America. The way we entomb our deceased bodies is already rather unnatural. I mean, anything that requires a "burp seal" can't be entirely what God intended, can it? :) (Well, except for Tupperware, that's different. I hope.)

IMO, the no-cremation rule really only applies to countries in which the body can be buried in the traditional cloth-wrapped manner, not in ones where a casket burial is required by law. Myself, I prefer the casket idea, but it's not suitable for everyone's wishes. :)

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[info]tig_b
2006-07-09 08:01 am UTC (link)
That is an interesting personal belief, but not supported by anything I have ever read or heard, and that section of Baha'i law does apply to all of us.

There are a lot of reason why Baha'u'llah's law on burial make sense to me, but the key thing is that if we accept He is the Manifestion for this day, then we also accept the whole package. There is a big difference between accepting something is right but struggling to do it and rejecting it.

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[info]ceci2176
2006-07-09 10:58 am UTC (link)

ceci2176
2006-07-09 10:57 am UTC (link)
Comment Posted Successfully
From a letter from the Universal House of Justice, 9 June 1974 (emphasis mine):

IV.D.1.k For the burial of the dead the only requirements now binding in the West are to bury the body (not to cremate it), not to carry it more than a distance of one hour's journey from the place of death, and to say the Prayer for the Dead if the deceased is a believer over the age of 15.

It is binding.

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[info]noachoc
2006-07-09 01:12 pm UTC (link)
Teehehe, wouldn't it be funny if tupperware were a crime against nature?

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[info]laisse_moncoeur
2006-07-09 02:39 pm UTC (link)
Haha. I thought of that too and it made me giggle.

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[info]ritahritahritah
2006-08-21 07:02 am UTC (link)
Lol. If only we could just "decide" that certain laws were made for other countries and not ourselves.

There is much change involved in religion. Adaptation is a key element. "Uhh that's not how we do it here, so we can ignore that rule..." I don't think so. But hey, independent investigation.

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[info]bery
2006-08-21 01:12 pm UTC (link)
The UHOJ has at times decided that some laws apply only (or, at least, more strictly) to Iranian bahais, creating an exception for Western bahais to encourage adoption of the faith in other parts of the world.

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[info]ritahritahritah
2006-08-21 03:05 pm UTC (link)
I understand that, for instance the saying of 95 Allah'u'abhas was only recently required for those of you in the west...
I don't know if we can pick and choose and decide that certain laws are not for us because, oh, they're for other countries. In the end, people do what they want, but I just wouldn't give someone guidance saying that I believe that doesn't apply to us. Anyway, just sharing a thought. I don't think that all laws are by "default" only applicable to Eastern Baha'is until the UHJ says otherwise. I think we should, again, do our own independent investigation, the reasons for the laws are there, clearly outilned by the guardian and the Master, and if after reading their guidance on the matter we believe the law is something which we shall not bother with, then that is our choice.

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[info]ceci2176
2006-07-09 11:09 am UTC (link)
In our lives, we go through growth all the time. When I converted way back when I didn't even KNOW all the laws, neither did I agree with all of them at first glance.

In "Wisdom of Burying the Dead," 'Abdu'l-Bahá says (among other interesting things): And just as the composition, the formation, and growth and development of the physical body have come about by degrees, so too must its decomposition and dispersal be gradual. If the disintegration be rapid, this will cause an overlapping and a slackening in the chain of transferences,and this discontinuity will impair the universal relationships within the chain of created things.

Later on, He says:

In short, the composition and decomposition, the gathering and scattering and journeying of all creatures must proceed according to the natural order, divine rule and the most great law of God, so that no marring nor impairment may affect the essential relationships which arise out of the inner realities of created things. This is why,according to the law of God, we are bidden to bury the dead.

Basically, what I get from the no cremation law is that it's unnatural. If we were supposed to be cremated, we would spontaneously burst into flames when we die. This is just my own way of understanding the law, and by no means an authoritative answer.

But since you've read the book, you know all that already. As for what would happen to your soul if you consciously break a Law of God...God is just but merciful. But you may want to contact the nearest Local Spiritual Assembly or the Research Department at the World Center for more information and consultation on this issue.

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[info]senzatema
2006-07-09 01:46 pm UTC (link)
two cents time...i sort of agree with territory_gal and euqsam. basically, becoming a Baha'i is not saying that you will never question your beliefs or ever take issue with anything in the Faith. it's only the beginning of a lonnnng process of growth.

i say: if the cremation law really feels like it's a burden on your heart and a barrier between you and the Faith, then give converting some time. keep praying and gain a better understanding of what the Faith and your own principles mean to you.

on the other hand, if the Faith is indeed what you feel is right for you, regardless of this law, then give your heart to Baha'u'llah and trust that these sorts of things will become clearer over time.

Allah'u'Abha! :)

end two cents.

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[info]grover173
2006-07-09 09:43 pm UTC (link)
There are a lot of Baha'i laws and rules I don't fully understand, and some I may never fully come to terms with. I think what's important is that you make a good-faith effort to make progress on both counts. To me, believing in the "Big Stuff" is the most important, and working my way down to the little details will come later--perhaps in this lifetime, perhaps not.

There is probably no religion in the world (unless one makes up their own) that matches 100% of one's beliefs 100% of the time, so you essentially have to decide where to draw your line. What becomes a deal-breaker, and what becomes a "workable issue"? You say the Baha'i Faith is "almost perfect" for you--is there something more perfect? I mean, if you took a poll of all the Baha'is in this community, an overwhelming majority of them would probably tell you that they are not a perfect match for the Baha'i Faith (note the careful wording of that sentence ;)).

Lastly, I don't know how old you are, but chances are you have decades left in your life. Who knows how you will feel about things in, say, 40 years? Priorities and principles change over time; I'm only 32 and I see things so differently than I did at 18 or 25 or even 28. By no means am I trying to say "oh, just do it, you'll give in and accept X eventually"--instead, my intent is to convey that one's thoughts and ideas and opinions do shift over time, and it's impossible to predict one way or the other how they will shift. Perhaps your opinion on this issue will never change, and to me that's fine. Which will you regret more in 40 years--that you're still at odds with one of the Baha'i laws, or that you passed over the opportunity to live a lifetime as a Baha'i?

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[info]goodness_sake
2006-07-09 10:45 pm UTC (link)
I liked all of these responses, but particularly yours. Said seeker who posted refers to a friend, which is me haha. But I think what you said makes a lot of sense... and I also appreciate how you give the example of the poll and perfect matches... I've always been brought up thinking that as a Baha'i, I must agree with ALL the principles, but I've come to realize that it all comes down to personal spiritual growth, and all of us are works in progress. It's only when a law you so strongly disagree with that it is preventing you from being a true Baha'i and progressing spiritually that there's serious a reason to consider not being a Baha'i.. (I think) Thanks a lot for your response. :)

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[info]grover173
2006-07-10 01:32 am UTC (link)
You're welcome. :) This question comes up a lot for me, especially within my family circle (I'm the only active Baha'i in my immediate family). I think a lot of Baha'is have a..."noble misconception" that they're doing something horribly wrong if they don't totally understand and/or unquestioningly follow all the laws set down. I don't think that was the laws' intent at all--one of our core principles, after all, is independent investigation (i.e. questioning) of truth. Perhaps -following- the principles is our obligation, but -agreeing- with them is not necessarily obligatory. ;) And even following them is hard sometimes. But that is why God's mercy is infinite and bountiful.

Educating one's self to knowing how the laws help us, learning to follow them--even some of the ones you don't agree with--is definitely a long learning experience and a path towards spiritual maturity. It is not fair to expect Baha'is to keep every law every day. The only perfect Baha'i, after all, was 'Abdu'l-Baha. The rest of us will fall short no matter how hard we try; it's not the falling short that we should avoid, it's the not striving to understand why we sometimes fall.

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[info]suresoundstudio
2006-07-10 06:23 pm UTC (link)
The last 3 sentences is one of the most beautiful explainations I've ever read.
Thanks ...

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[info]grover173
2006-07-10 07:05 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome! I'm glad they were valuable.

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[info]thiefgirl
2006-07-10 07:10 pm UTC (link)
I agree with suresoundstudio. That was beautiful. And I've decided that this is the right religion for me, despite small disagreements I may have with it. I get my declaration card today!:D

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[info]grover173
2006-07-10 08:10 pm UTC (link)
*smiles broadly* I am very happy. Welcome to the Baha'i family! :)

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[info]sholeh
2006-07-11 05:22 pm UTC (link)
YAY! Welcome! :-)

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[info]suresoundstudio
2006-08-10 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Just reading back previous comments and found yours re: declaration.
I'm so happy for you.
Welcome to the Baha'i family.
:)

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[info]birthday_candle
2006-08-04 10:49 pm UTC (link)
I always wanted to be cremated, I still do, I think it's more beautiful and I love the idea of having my ashes spread all over the world.

My mother explained it to me that we don't know at exactly which moment the soul departs from the body. Sure it makes sense that it's at the moment of death, but we don't know what happens in that moment after death, nor will be EVER know.

So even though it feels more natural for me to be cremated I'll follow the writings, because when I go on to the next life, hopefully I'll be too busy to care where my old body is!

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[info]birthday_candle
2006-08-04 10:50 pm UTC (link)
*nor will we ever know. oops.

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