Jehmeh ([info]3dollahsukisuki) wrote in [info]ljbahai,
@ 2005-04-07 01:15:00
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Current mood: curious

Hey! My name's Jeremy, and I'm very new to the Baha'i Faith, but I already consider myself one, for the most part. It really wasn't that much of a conversion to me, considering that I believed about 95% of it for at least five years. Even though I heard about Baha'i before, I really didn't know anything about it. That was until about a week and a half ago when my school (Kenesaw State University) held an interfaith panel with people of different religions--Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, Baha'i, and Paganism. When the Baha'i explained her beliefs, I just thought "Oh my God! That's me!" I walked up to her after the seminar and I told her what I thought and she gave me a book, I forgot who it's by, but it's called God Speaks Again--An Introduction to the Baha'i Faith. The more I read it, the more I was satisfied with the whole religion.

I've gone to a Unitarian Universalist Church now for about a month and a half, and I love it, but it's not quite as spiritual for me. Even thought I feel as though I have already found my own spiritual truths, I wanted structure, and I think Baha'i provides that for me without making me sacrifice too much. I was, though, extremely upset when I read whay Baha'i says about homosexuality. To me, frankly and with all do respect, it contradicts the central teaching of Baha'i--that there's beauty in unity and diversity--and I would hope that that means all aspects of diversity. I can't deal with the concept of somehow I'm spiritually deprived--for lack of a better term, because of something as natural as my sexuality. I was very emotionally messed up when I was first struggling with my sexuality because I was raised in a Christian household, and I refuse to go back to that--not for Jesus, and not for Baha'u'llah (again, with all do respect). So, I've come to the conclusion that I'm a Unitarian Universalist Baha'i, with Baha'i being the foundation of my beliefs, and I just add and subtract where I deem necessary.

Okay. Now that I did that over-drawn introduction, I have some questions. I've been reading a lot of the past entries, and you guys give amazing answers--which is definately excellent.

Could someone explain to me what a covenant-breaker is? I read about it in that book, but I still don't understand it.

I read somewhere (maybe it was am old entry here) that Baha'i shouldn't be political active. Is this true and if so, could someone elaborate on it? As you can tell from my icon and userinfo, I'm very politically active.

Is there anywhere where I can read the Holy Scriptures online? I read about the Ocean program in here, but, unfortunately, I'm in the computer lab on camppus so I can't download anything. And if at all possible, is there a site with them written in just plain English? I can read the "thou" and "ye" stuff, it's just a lot easier the other way.

Thanks! Oh yeah, my favorite Baha'i passage (thus far) is on my userinfo. =)




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[info]belladolce19
2005-04-07 05:40 am UTC (link)
Hey Jeremy & Welcome! It's interesting you bring this up because I just did all this research on homosexuality and the concept of Chastity in the Baha'i Faith. I'd be happy to send you the writings that I found and talk to you a bit about it if you like. I'm going to be having a discussion with some high school aged youth about it next week (I run a youth group) Anyhow...oh I'm Neda btw nice to meet you:) Let me know if you want the quotes and/or wanna chat:) Oh and that book is by Ken Bowers who is a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States.

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[info]3dollahsukisuki
2005-04-07 05:45 am UTC (link)
I'd love to chat! I only have aim though. My sn's ThereIsNoJustWar. Thanks. =D

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[info]belladolce19
2005-04-07 06:15 am UTC (link)
I have all the quotes at my office...so can we chat tomorrow? During the day? Otherwise I could send you the quotes and we could talk about it later tomorrow night...lemme know:)

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[info]sholeh
2005-04-07 05:53 am UTC (link)
Ahh Neda thanks, I was too tired to try to find the relevant quotes on the subject. :-)

I'm working on my answer to the rest of the questions right now.

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[info]belladolce19
2005-04-07 06:14 am UTC (link)
Awesome! Thanks Sholehi:)

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[info]sholeh
2005-04-07 06:15 am UTC (link)
Hello! Welcome! Whew, lots of questions to answer! :-)

As for the first, about your conflicts with the Baha'i position on homosexuality. I am sorry that this has hurt you. I think it is also important to realize that NOWHERE in the Baha'i Writings does it say that you are spiritually deprived! :-( Each of us is loved by God, and we strive to better ourselves in accordance with His teachings. We don't believe that homosexual individuals go to "hell" or are spiritually less than others. I know homosexual Baha'is. It is the action itself that is not allowed.

I do not, however, find that it contradicts the central teachings of the Baha'i Faith. :-) Baha'u'llah gave us this guidance (from God) for a reason, even if we do not understand it fully. I'm not sure I can give you a better answer than that...perhaps Neda can give more insight on this one.

As for picking and choosing which parts you want to follow... My favorite passage is this one from the Kitab-i-Aqdas (which I quoted in an earlier post):

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is
the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of
His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His
Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived
thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of
every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who
reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of
transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him
Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are
inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other.
Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of
Divine inspiration.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)


What I've come to understand this to mean is that the first duty I have is to recognize Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God. The second duty is to follow His laws. The second to last sentence is the clincher: Neither is acceptable without the other. The above passage is the first paragraph of The Most Holy Book of the Baha'i Faith. :-)

Ok next question: Covenant-breakers. This is a very serious offence, and only the Universal House of Justice has the authority to declare someone a Covenant-breaker. There is a great article here that lays the concept of the Covenant out very clearly. If you find that too long, please let me know and I can write something out, but I find that to be a LOT better than anything I could say.

Politics: here are some quotes I've pulled up for you, but feel free to do a more thorough search on your own.

Fully aware of the repeated statements of 'Abdu'l-Bahá that universality is of God, Bahá'ís in every land are ready, nay anxious, to associate themselves by word and deed with any association of men which, after careful scrutiny, they feel satisfied is free from every tinge of partisanship and politics and is wholly devoted to the interests of all mankind.

(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 125)

"The attitude of the Bahá'ís must be two-fold, complete obedience to the government of the country they reside in, and no interference whatsoever in political matters or questions. What the Master's statement really means is obedience to a duly constituted government, whatever that government may be in form. We are not the ones, as individual Bahá'ís, to judge our government as just or unjust -- for each believer would be sure to hold a different viewpoint, and within our own Bahá'í fold a hotbed of dissension would spring up and destroy our unity. We must build up our own Bahá'í system, and leave the faulty systems of the world to go their way. We cannot change them through becoming involved in them; on the contrary, they will destroy us."

(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 56)


I've also found some quotes I'm going to put in another comment because this has gotten too long. :-)

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continued!
[info]sholeh
2005-04-07 06:16 am UTC (link)
Place to read the Baha'i Writings Online: http://reference.bahai.org
About having them in "plain English", that isn't possible. The Baha'i Writings were originally written in Arabic and Persian, which are very beautiful languages. The Guardian (Baha'u'llah's great-grandson), who was given the authority to translate the Writings, chose this style because of its beauty and other reasons (I can't remember). Honestly, it gets a lot easier to read once you get into the flow of it. ;-) Here is a link to a whole compilation on the subject!

--------------------------------
239. On Becoming a Bahá'í

"When a person becomes a Bahá'í, he gives up the past only in the sense that he is a part of this new and living Faith of God, and must seek to pattern himself, in act and thought, along the lines laid down by Bahá'u'lláh. The fact that he is by origin a Jew or a Christian, a black man or a white man, is not important anymore, but, as you say, lends color and charm to the Bahá'í community in that it demonstrates unity in diversity."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 12, 1949: Bahá'í News, No.251, p. 2, January 1952)

240. Warning to Every Beginner in the Faith

"I consider it my duty to warn every beginner in the faith that the promised glories of the Sovereignty which the Bahá'í teachings fore-shadow, can be revealed only in the fulness of time, that the implications of the Aqdas and the Will of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, as the twin repositories or the constituent elements of that Sovereignty, are too for-reaching for this generation to grasp and fully appreciate. 69 I cannot refrain from appealing to them who stand identified with the Faith to disregard the prevailing notions and the fleeting fashions of the day, and to realize as never before that the exploded theories and the tottering institutions of present-day civilization must needs appear in sharp contrast with those God- given institutions which are destined to arise upon their ruin."

(Shoghi Effendi: The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: p. 16)

241. Not Sufficient to Accept Some Aspects of Teachings and Reject Others

'... The believer, and particularly those who have not had sufficient experience in teachings, should be very careful in the way they present the teachings of the Cause. Sincerity, devotion and faith are not the sole conditions of successful teaching. Tactfulness, extreme caution and wisdom are equally important. we should not be in a hurry when we announce the message to the public and we should be careful to present the teachings in their entirety and not to alter them for the sake of others. Allegiance to the Faith cannot be partial and half-heated. Either we should accept the Cause without any qualification whatever, or cease calling ourselves Bahá'ís. The non-believers should be made to realize that it is not sufficient for them to accept some aspect of the teachings and reject those not sufficient for them to accept some aspects of the teachings and reject those which cannot suit their mentality in order to become fully-recognized and active followers of the Faith. In this way all sorts of misunderstanding will vanish and the organic unity of the Cause will be preserved."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, June 12, 1933: Bahá'í News, No. 80, p.5, January 1934)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 68)

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Re: continued!
[info]3dollahsukisuki
2005-04-07 06:31 am UTC (link)
Thanks for all of your answers. I guess, after reading them, that I wouldn't be comfortable being Baha'i after all. And if I would be, the closest thing would be only spiritually. Honestly, I just can't accept the fact that I have to be abstinent just because I'm gay, or that I have to accept all of Bahai's teachings. That's why I'd consider myself to be a Unitarian Universalist Baha'i. Baha'i itself would provide the structure, and UUism would give me the freedom to grow as I need to.

It took me a really long time to get me where I am today, and I absolutely refuse</b> to go back to such an emotionally dark and suicidal time in my life. I believe God made me gay, just as he made me disabled. To my mind, it's more spiritually dangerous to deny what comes natural to you, and what brings you happiness, even though it may seem wrong to others, than to completely ignore that and follow something contrary to it. But that's just me.

Thanks again.

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Re: continued!
[info]badikumar
2005-04-07 07:54 am UTC (link)
With all due respect to your feelings and sentiments, I'd like you to make an interospection of yourself and your priorities again and come to a conclusion that you are a Baha'i or a Unitarian Universalist. As the Beloved Guardian says...


Either we should accept the Cause without any qualification whatever, or cease calling ourselves Bahá'ís.


Calling yourself a Unitarian Universalist Baha'i is not acceptable. One of the most beautiful aspects of the Baha'i Faith is that it has no sects and it's of utmost importance that we, as individuals, do not start these sects by labeling ourselves as Baha'is with a certain "qualification".

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Re: continued!
[info]3dollahsukisuki
2005-04-07 03:12 pm UTC (link)
Fine. I'd be a Unitarian Universalist if I absolutely had to choose. But here's another question. Why is that Baha'i says to have an individual investigation of truth, and to apply that with reason, but when your truth or reason differs from another Baha'i, even the Guardian, then your wrong?

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Re: continued!
[info]badikumar
2005-04-07 03:21 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry if I offended in any way! I didn't mean to.

The Baha'i Faith teaches us to investigate the truth and hold on the Truth when you are sure you've found it. When it comes to the interpretation of the Baha'i writings or clarifications thereupon, we'll have to look into what the covenant teaches us. You shouldn't take rely on interpretations of an individaul, but on the explanations by the central figures of the Faith viz., Baha'u'llah, the prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, Abdul-Baha, the Master and Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian and now the Universal House of Justice.

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Re: continued!
[info]3dollahsukisuki
2005-04-07 04:03 pm UTC (link)
You didn't, and I apologize if I inplied that you did. I'm just very--spiritually restless about this, I guess.

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Re: continued!
[info]baquia
2005-04-07 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Allah'u'Abha badikumar,

to my understanding, the UHJ has legislative authority. They can not interpret the writings and they do not interpret the writings. To do so would be a breach of the Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha. And I know that they would never do that.

As well, Baha'is are free to interpret the writings as they wish and to share it with others. As long as they do not attempt to force other Baha'is to accept their personal interpretation. So interpret away and share! That is a bounty that we have in this dispensation.

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Re: continued!
[info]3dollahsukisuki
2005-04-07 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Thank you so much. That really brightened up my day.

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Re: continued!
[info]sholeh
2005-04-08 01:06 am UTC (link)
Incorrect, Baquia. Here are some references for you.

The hereditary authority which the Guardian of the Administrative Order is called upon to exercise, and the right of the interpretation of the Holy Writ solely conferred upon him; the powers and prerogatives of the Universal House of Justice, possessing the exclusive right to legislate on matters not explicitly revealed in the Most Holy Book; the ordinance exempting its members from any responsibility to those whom they represent, and from the obligation to conform to their views, convictions or sentiments; the specific provisions requiring the free and democratic election by the mass of the faithful of the Body that constitutes the sole legislative organ in the world-wide Bahá'í community -- these are among the features which 327 combine to set apart the Order identified with the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh from any of the existing systems of human government.

(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 326)

Although the Universal House of Justice is explicitly
authorized to change or repeal its own legislation as
conditions change, thus providing Bahá'í law with an
essential element of flexibility, it cannot abrogate or change
any of the laws which are explicitly laid down in the sacred
Text.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 5)

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Re: continued!
[info]baquia
2005-04-08 03:46 pm UTC (link)
Allah'u'abha Sholeh,

I'm not sure what you mean by incorrect.

I said in my previous post that the UHJ only has legislative authority (and not authority to interpret the writings). bakikumar agreed by the way also.

And you quoted the Guardian saying that the Guardian has "the right of the interpretation of the Holy Writ solely conferred upon him". And then the quote goes on to say, the UHJ has the role of legislating.

It seems that we agree. Unless I'm missing something...

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Re: continued!
[info]badikumar
2005-04-08 03:51 am UTC (link)
Allah 'u' abha baquia.

You are right. UHJ has only legislative authority. I didn't mean otherwise :-) Thanks for making it clear.

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Re: continued!
[info]baquia
2005-04-07 08:45 pm UTC (link)
badikumar,

have you read this?

"You must not dissociate yourself from it [the questioner's church]. Know this; the Kingdom of God is not in any Society; some seekers go through many Societies as a traveller goes through many cities till he reach his destination. If you belong to a Society already do not forsake your brothers. You can be a Baha'i-Christian, a Baha'i-Freemason, a Baha'i-Jew, a Baha'i-Muhammadan. The number nine contains eight, and seven, and all the other numbers, and does not deny any of them. Do not distress or deny anyone by saying 'He is not a Baha'i!' He will be known by his deeds. There are no secrets among Baha'is; a Baha'i does not hide anything."

Abdu'l-Baha in London
http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/ABL/ABL-54.html

Granted, Abdu'l-Baha doesn't use the example of "Unitarian Universalist Baha'i" but do you think maybe there is a lesson here for us? I would be in your debt if you would share with me what your take is on this.

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Re: continued!
[info]badikumar
2005-04-08 04:09 am UTC (link)
I'd like to bring your attention to this quotation by the Guardian again...

...Allegiance to the Faith cannot be partial and half-heated. Either we should accept the Cause without any qualification whatever, or cease calling ourselves Baha'is. The non-believers should be made to realize that it is not sufficient for them to accept some aspect of the teachings and reject those not sufficient for them to accept some aspects of the teachings and reject those which cannot suit their mentality in order to become fully-recognized and active followers of the Faith. In this way all sorts of misunderstanding will vanish and the organic unity of the Cause will be preserved.


So, in effect, this does not seem to contradict what Abdul-Baha says about "belonging" to different societies. It only means that you'll have to accept the truth of the Baha'i Faith in it's entirety and at the same time it's not necessary for you to dissociate yourself from the societies you belong to.

But, it's not acceptable to adopt only a subset of the Baha'i Faith and qualify yourself by a different name.

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Re: continued!
[info]baquia
2005-04-08 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Allah'u'Abha badikumar,

Yes, I agree with you. Being a Baha'i doesn't mean that you disassociate yourself from other groups. In fact, we should be making a concerted effort to reach out to people (as the Master did all His life).

The part that strikes me the most is: "Do not distress or deny anyone by saying 'He is not a Baha'i!'"

I always try to remember this because over the years I've seen and heard a lot and it is much too easy to slip on that slope of judgement and call another person 'not a Baha'i' because of something they said or did, or whatever. In this quote I see reflected the infinite love that Abdu'l-Baha had and it really moves me.

cheers

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Re: continued!
[info]shaadi2thelaadi
2005-04-08 08:01 pm UTC (link)
I think the issue here was not the original posters devotion to Unitarian Universalism and the Baha'i Faith. The issue was the picking and choosing of certain laws to practice and certain ones to dismiss. Ofcourse Baha'u'llah has encouraged to remain true to your past religion and to simply form a beautiful union between that and the Bahai Faith. But as a Bahai you practice all of Baha'u'llah's laws, not just certain ones. THAT was the issue Sholeh and badikumar were addressing, not he fact that in order to be a Baha'i you must abandon whatever you were devoted to prior to finding the faith. That has no truth to it, and nobody was saying that.

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[info]belladolce19
2005-04-07 06:30 am UTC (link)
EEEEP I got so excited about the homosexuality question I totally shafted the rest! Hahaha sorry Jeremy & thanks Sholeh for the quotes...btw I'm a poli sci major too so we can talk a bit about the politics thing as well:)

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[info]badikumar
2005-04-07 07:45 am UTC (link)
Neda, It would be great to share the collection that you have for future reference. Can you post the quotations you've collected or mail them to me at badikumar at gmail dot com ? Thanks. :-)

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[info]anar_anar
2005-04-07 07:14 am UTC (link)
Well, it seems everyone else has done a good job of answering your questions, and I'm never good at answering questions anyway, eheh, so I will just say welcome and if you're ever looking for Baha'i stuff in the local area there's a pretty lively youth community in Atlanta :)

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[info]seedorama
2005-04-07 05:27 pm UTC (link)
Hi Jeremy! Welcome and glad to have your questions. I'm going to take a slightly different perspective and suggest that there's no rush. You don't have to decide this moment, on a LJ community, whether or not you're a Baha'i or to what extent you what to be affiliated with the faith. Investigation of the truth is a process and is supposed to be a life-long one. So keep asking.

Covenant-Breakers: simply put, is some one who harms the faith with full understanding of what they are doing. For example, some one who tries to create their own sect of the faith in full understanding that Baha'u'llah forbid it, would be a Covenant-Breaker. Here's an official definition:

People who have withdrawn from the Cause because they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers -- they are non-Bahá'ís and should just be treated as such. Only those who ally themselves actively with known enemies of the Faith who are Covenant-breakers, and who attack the Faith in the same spirit as these people, can be considered, themselves, to be Covenant-breakers. As you know, up to the present time, no one has been permitted to pronounce anybody a Covenant-breaker but the Guardian himself.

(Shoghi Effendi, Messages to Canada, p. 64)

For the politics question, a recent post was all about that, so if you look back just a couple days, you should find lots of info. But post again if you still have questions about that.


Lastly, I just want to say that I am impressed by your honesty. It sounds like you've dealt with a lot of pain about religion and your sexuality. I hope that with time, you can heal and feel your relationship with God grow closer, whichever path your choose. If you find that the Baha'i faith has a lot to offer, try taking it step by step. Going to a fireside doesn't mean you have to commit to observing every Baha'i law. The majority of Baha'i activities are open to all and I expect you'll find yourself welcomed with friendly faces.
Again, welcome to the community.
Cecily

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[info]sholeh
2005-04-07 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I probably should have said something to this effect as well...I don't want you to feel as though we are pressuring you to make decisions about something. I am merely trying to provide some relevant guidance, and I hope that you do this search yourself as well.

Much, much love, Jeremy.
~Sholeh

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[info]pthalogreen
2005-04-07 06:25 pm UTC (link)
I just wanted to say hi, cause everyone's answered your questions. I'm a gay Bahá'í. It's kind of a tangle in my heart but I've mostly come to peace with it by deciding that it's between me and God. God made me gay. I was born this way. I don't really have answers. I know what the faith says about it. But you can be gay and a Bahá'í at the same time. I'm a Bahá'í because I love Bahá'u'lláh.

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[info]baquia
2005-04-07 08:55 pm UTC (link)
pthalogreen, Allah'u'Abha!

In case you haven't found this yet:

http://www.gaybahai.homestead.com

There are a lot of supportive people out there.

Peace + love

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[info]darius409
2005-04-08 02:19 am UTC (link)
to people in general:

I'm not officially Baha'i, but I read Jeremy's post and all the responses, and I really want to add my opinion. I don't want to seem arrogant, as I'm not Baha'i and I'm adding my two cents worth in a sensitive Baha'i issue, but I feel somewhat strongly about this.

to jeremy:

I can emphathize with your position. While I'm not Baha'i or gay, I understand how hard it is when you can't accept every aspect of your religion. One of the key principles of the Baha'i faith is the independent search for truth, and I think it's fine to call yourself a "Unitarian Universalist Baha'i." You don't need to fit 100% into any religion; we're each individuals, and we should figure out what we think is best.

In the end, I'm certain God doesn't care whether you're gay, or if you call yourself a Unitarian Universalist Baha'i. He cares that you live a good life and follow what you believe is right.

to people in general, again:

I apologize if I've made an offensive or seemingly arrogant interpretation of the Baha'i faith. I realize that most of you know a lot more about the faith than I do, but like I said earlier, I feel strongly about this and wanted my opinion to be known.

Vikram

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[info]sholeh
2005-04-08 04:00 am UTC (link)
Thank you for contributing, Vikram. :-) We appreciate your involvement in the community!

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[info]shaadi2thelaadi
2005-04-08 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for your views Vikram. I think you've really brought out the most important issue here, living a good life and being a good person. Yes, you are right. God evaluates us by our deeds, and if we were to do nothing but be good people, regardless of religion or sexuality or anything, God would hold us in high regard. God loves all his children, regardless, for he created them. :o)

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[info]shaadi2thelaadi
2005-04-08 07:26 pm UTC (link)
Hi Jeremy! First of all, welcome!!! I think it's so interesting to see your comment that you have felt you have been practicing many of the things the Baha'i Faith teaches, because that is the most common thing people say. I know many new Baha'is in our area are like, "Gosh...I've always believed in this..and lo and behold here are a group of people who do too." It's so nice I think to find that link.

I think many of our great members here have done a wonderful job addressing your questions, so I won't address them to keep from being redundant. I do want to say, however, not to take things that were said personally. I think everybody here tries to offer advice the way they know best to answer your questions, and sometimes even when people just want to somewhat educationally(for lack of a better term)answer your question, emotions can be emitted that aren't intended to be there. I hope you continue in your personal search for the truth. I think like someone mentioned earlier, don't feel pressured. This is a process in life, just like anything else, and you are finding how you fit into the equation. Please keep reading and educating yourself in finding the truth. You seem like such a great person, and we're happy to have you in the comunity. Feel free to always post whatever is on your mind. Take good care! :o)

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