little_details: Crossdressing for a job/passing off as a girl?

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fuckyeah) wrote in

little_details,
@ 2007-07-09 13:36:00

Current mood:	curious
Current music:	Peaches - Cum Undun
Entry tags:	crossdressing

Crossdressing for a job/passing off as a girl?
Setting: Present day

Okay, I have this possible character (we'll call him Pat for now) in his teens early twenties who has a small frame, what would be called feminine characteristics, and who has a quiet personality. The premise was this:

- That he would only crossdress for his job, not for his own reasons. But what jobs would require him to cross dress? All I could think of was at a club, modeling, or in theatre performance of some sort.

- That he would be mistaken to be an actual girl by another man. If Pat was dressed up well (like even disguised as a girl with a wig and such), how likely is it for the other guy to not realize it's Pat? He wouldn't know Pat that well, so it's not like he'd recognize mannerisms and such right away.

Thank you for all your help. I tried to google any possibilities, but it mostly came up for those who normally crossdress, not do it for their work.

EDIT: Thank you so much everybody! I never expected so many helpful responses so fast! +_+ <3

(Post a new comment)

	imrihamun 2007-07-09 07:17 pm UTC (link)
	Two other suggestions cross my mind: hostessing, such as at a casino (they often have requirements about build and hair, too) and, if you want a bit different, there are still a few 'women's only' apartments in NYC. They're a bit restrictive, but I could see someone trying to cheat it to get a decent place to live. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	dynapink 2007-07-09 07:20 pm UTC (link)
	OMG! "Bosom Buddies" might still be a viable concept after 20+ years?! (Well, as much as it ever was.) That's hilarious. :D (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	uhlrik 2007-07-09 08:35 pm UTC (link)
	My thoughts exactly. That cracks me up. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 08:19 pm UTC (link)
	Hrm, I didn't even think about that, thank you! (Reply to this) (Parent)

dedbutdrmng
2007-07-09 07:22 pm UTC (link)

From experience. I'm a thin, and effimate man. Not so much now I'm a bit older (though it still happens) but I have been regulalry mistaken for a girl all my life. I do have very long hair and that's part of it. But it happens all the time, in the bank, on busess, in taxis. I don't crossdress (though I am a Goth so...). But in answer to question two, very likely.

You may want to make your chap quite lightly spoken, I am and I know my voice is half of it.

Making him have a job where he has to crossdress is an odd logical leap. If he's worried about the way people react to him he'd avoid anything like that. If he isn't worried but not a crossdresser it's unlikely he'd seek out a job that wanted him to (and he would probably have to beat away female impersonators who actively wanted that job). The only reason I can think of is if he was in a theatre group with not enough women.

You might want to check into the difference between a cross dresser and female impersonator as well. They are very different.

RJ

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	dedbutdrmng 2007-07-09 07:23 pm UTC (link)
	"From experience. I'm a thin, and effimate man..." Who can't use the English language today. Doh! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	More and more I'm thinking a theatre group would be the most viable choice. You might want to check into the difference between a cross dresser and female impersonator as well. They are very different. Good point! I didn't even think about that, thank you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

starspiritgate
2007-07-09 09:30 pm UTC (link)

Ditto on the voice. I'd reccomend checking out MtF trans sites on "passing," some would cover the issue of voice. I think... ah, there we go. I (sort of) know the site owner, and she's pretty good about advice like this, although she's not a professional.

Never use falsetto...dead giveaway. Pitch, within reason is not the issue. How high or low means little compared to other factors that are vastly more important.

Produce your voice only from the back of your throat...from your head...never from your chest cavity. The chest is larger in physical males, and produces a characteristic hollow rumble under the voice, which is what must be eliminated. Slightly nasal if you have to, but back of throat. Eventually you will find a place that seems to feel comfortable, but has no low resonant subtones.

No monotone. Males speak in monotone, females use a more 'musical' manner of speech, and often phrase things so they rise slightly at the end, as a question.

Females keep the conversation rolling, nearly constantly make eye contact, have a much smaller or nonexistent 'personal space' of physical proximity to others than males, and almost always gesticulate while speaking.

Females use language males do not, cues such as the use of very diverse names for colors and dramatic adjectives. Females seldom make absolute statements.

By combining some, many, or all of these traits, it is possible to develop a convincing voice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dedbutdrmng 2007-07-09 09:35 pm UTC (link)
	A lot of it's in stance and movement as well. Jonny Depp as Jack Sparrow is a good study for a man who moves in a much more feminine way than is the usual. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	garden_hoe21 2007-07-13 02:25 pm UTC (link)
	I thought that was just drunken swaggering? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dedbutdrmng 2007-07-13 02:28 pm UTC (link)
	Heh. No. Watch him run. Me - HA! Jack Sparrow runs like a girl. Girlfriend - He runs like you. Me - Bugger. (Reply to this) (Parent)

dynapink
2007-07-09 07:26 pm UTC (link)

Well, personally I think it's generally pretty easy to spot a crossdresser on sight, plus anyone who's in the kind of place that would require him to dress as a woman (theatrical, hosting, etc.) I would think would be kind of tipped off to begin with.

However, if he's outside of work when he meets the other man for some reason, or if it's dark enough, or the other man is a bit drunk or otherwise oblivious for whatever reason, it might be believable.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 08:24 pm UTC (link)
	That's the premise, that the other man isn't quite aware of the fact. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kutsuwamushi 2007-07-09 11:02 pm UTC (link)
	personally I think it's generally pretty easy to spot a crossdresser on sight Why do you think this? I'm curious. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

entelodont
2007-07-10 12:18 am UTC (link)

I can't speak for

dynapink, but there are small features of the anatomy, especially in the face, that make it easy (with practice) to pick out someone who is biologically male. I'm also a physical anthropology nerd, so I notice the differences in the bone. Lower, more defined eyebrows, stronger jaws (even in fine-jawed individuals)... some features are just on a slightly larger scale, if that makes sense, and if you've seen enough examples you notice the patterns.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kutsuwamushi
2007-07-10 03:03 am UTC (link)

I'd guess physical anthropology nerds aren't your average "audience," so to speak. Neither are people who have practice picking crossdressers out.

Obviously, some people can pass well enough. We have their experiences. It's possible that more people can tell that they're physically male than they know, and simply don't mention it--but on the other hand, how well can someone judge their own ability to pick out crossdressers? If you don't notice, then you don't know that that woman in front of you in line at the grocery store is physically male.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

logophilos
2007-07-10 07:34 am UTC (link)

Some men who dress as women (for whatever reason) just don't make convincing women, though they want to be seen as female at that point and in other ways, behave in a convincingly female manner. You don't have to be a specialist to spot things like jaws and Adam's apples, or the general dimensions (or in one poor guy's case, actual stubble :) ). However, that's not the same thing as saying *all* men passing as women are obvious - clearly they're not. It's like people who can say they can spot gay men a mile away - they have no idea how many people *don't* ping their radar.

It's also true that people see what they expect to see. If someone introduces themselves as female, they will usually be accepted as female - even someone as OTT as Dame Edna is treated and reacted to as if she's female, despite the fact the transvestitism is no secret at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kutsuwamushi 2007-07-10 12:01 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to bring up. I've met people who don't pass well, and personally hope that they didn't notice I noticed, but as for everyone else--well, I just don't know. (Reply to this) (Parent)

redcoast
2007-07-09 07:26 pm UTC (link)

So you need Pat to irregularly disguise himself as a girl, is that it? Does the fellow who mistakes him as a girl already know Pat or is this the way they meet? Because if they don't know each other, then it's totally plausible that the other guy can mistake Pat for a girl without Pat actually cross-dressing. Just wearing an androgynous uniform, maybe.

If the other guy met Pat when he was being a boy, then it's more difficult.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	Well, the idea was that they would go to schooling together and the guy would know Pat's identity as male, but that can be changed around. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

redcoast
2007-07-09 08:32 pm UTC (link)

Well, when it comes to not recognizing Pat, you probably don't need more than a change of clothes and a wig (or longer hair). There've been studies done of this, and unfortunately I can remember where I read of them aside from my college psychology textbook, but it's the inverse of that phenomenon where your girlfriend cuts her hair or your dad shaves his beard and you can't figure out what's different about them. That is, if someone changes just one thing about them, but it's pretty major, they can become totally unrecognizable. I once spoke to a girl for about twenty minutes before realizing, because she said so, that she had been an actor in a movie project that I had helped in. I even helped edit it, so I had been staring at her face for a couple of hours. All she did was change her hair color and style.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 09:20 pm UTC (link)
	Really? That's interesting but makes sense! Thank you! (Reply to this) (Parent)

skjam
2007-07-09 10:33 pm UTC (link)

A while back, I ran into a friend who I hadn't seen in about two years. During that time, she'd transitioned. I noticed her out of the corner of my eye, and said, "Hi, (male name)."

She asked, "Do you notice anything different?"

I looked at her, puzzled for a moment, then realized--"You've shaved!"

"Look down a little."

"Oh."

But yeah, if the acquaintance is only casually aware of Pat, they might well not pick up on the uncanny resemblance. And if Pat's disguise happens to hit the acquaintance's "hot girl" buttons, the acquaintance's lust will gloss over tiny imperfections like a too-prominent adam's apple.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	saunders 2007-07-09 07:30 pm UTC (link)
	Have you seen Tootsie? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gehayi 2007-07-09 07:55 pm UTC (link)
	Or Mrs. Doubtfire? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	costellofolds 2007-07-09 08:24 pm UTC (link)
	or that one scene in Rocky Horror Picture Show? (eh, for a second, anyway) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 08:26 pm UTC (link)
	No Tootsie, Yes Mrs. Doubtfire, and no Rocky Horror Picture show. XD I was thinking about that too, but I didn't know how much truth was in that. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	twilight2000 2009-02-23 11:40 pm UTC (link)
	Check out Tootsie - it's a better (more convincing) crossover than Doubtfire - for a much larger audience and with physical adaptations to communicate as "female" as well (not just dressing as such). It's worth a looksee ;> (Reply to this) (Parent)

dorianegray
2007-07-09 07:31 pm UTC (link)

One of my exes had very long, straight blond hair, and an inability to grow more than "bum-fluff" facial hair. He often got mistaken for a girl, and was at least once chatted up on a bus by a(n admittedly drunk) man. I don't think it's implausible that your character could be mistaken for a girl, at least for a little while, given the right circumstances. (Dim lighting and/or inebriation on the part of the mistake-maker would certainly help.)

(Reply to this)

slightlywee
2007-07-09 08:09 pm UTC (link)

I am a small, young-looking guy (5'3", 20) who used to work in a bookstore that was otherwise entirely staffed by women, and I was frequently taken to be female (I have hair to the nape of my neck, which is longer than many guys have it, but my typical clothing is t-shirt and jeans). I'm not effeminate, but am androgynous-looking, I guess, and don't go out of my way to be macho -- I've pretty much found that strangers will just project a gender onto an androgynous person based on their own experience or mood or whatever. To some people, it's completely "obvious" that I'm female, and to some people, it's the opposite. I'd say it's completely possible that a stranger would take Pat to be female.

I really can't think of any jobs other than those you mentioned where Pat would be required to crossdress and customers wouldn't expect him to be a man (drag queen waitressing or something). Unless it's important that he be in heels or whatever, you could very well have him in clothing with no obvious gender cues and have someone take him as female that way.

(Reply to this)

cmar_wingnut
2007-07-09 08:11 pm UTC (link)

Re - Another man who already knows him not recognizing Pat dressed as a woman:

If he genuinely identifies Pat as female, which is very plausible given your setup, I think he'd be very likely to not recognize him beyond thinking there's something familiar about him (her). Gender identification is very basic and his mind simply wouldn't consider Pat as a possibility, or that's my theory.

It's the other way around, but once I went to a Halloween party dressed as a man. I wore a short wig, eyebrow pencil to make my brows thicker and make a little fake mustache, and a suit loose enough to hide my figure. When my boyfriend came to my door to pick me up, he did not recognize me until I spoke. (And he was very embarassed about it, too.) At the party, several of my friends didn't recognize me. One of them said later he thought I was a short, funny-looking man for the couple of hours until I took off the wig. It was a strange sensation seeing people I knew looking at me like - well, like they didn't know me.

Ah, the power of perception.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fuckyeah 2007-07-09 08:29 pm UTC (link)
	Ahaha, that sounds awesome. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	cmar_wingnut 2007-07-09 10:23 pm UTC (link)
	Awesome, yes, but at the time it felt VERY uncomfortable. I guess we invest a lot of our self-identity in our gender - I knew how illogical it was but I couldn't wait to take that wig and the suit jacket off and look female again. (Reply to this) (Parent)

It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time.

azurelunatic
2007-07-09 09:27 pm UTC (link)

I've been on the other side of that when I was 17 or so. My sister cross-dressed as male for a camp dance. She was about 15, wore glasses 100% of the time, had gorgeous thick wavy hair down past her shoulderblades, a fairly sturdy frame but not that much weight on it, nice sturdy thick eyebrows and strong features, and not a particularly notable rack yet. I knew that she was cross-dressing for the dance, though I didn't run into her there.

The following morning, I wake up to the sight of OMG SOME HALF-NAKED TEENAGE GUY IN MY ROOM blinking short-sightedly at me, wearing a flannel down just past his groin (and nothing else on), with a really respectable beard for a guy that age and long flowing Jesus-hair.

I shrieked and grabbed at my blankets.

"Good morning," he said, or words to that effect, in an oddly feminine voice. It took a few moments for that to process. I literally didn't recognize my own sister in my own house until she said something to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time.

starspiritgate
2007-07-09 09:42 pm UTC (link)

I'm sorry. I laughed my head off at that.

I've had many, many people mistake me for a guy, with no effort at all on my part. I'm baffled by this. I used to have fairly short hair (think cropped with hella long fringe), but even when it was growing out I'd randomly have cashiers to cab drivers think I was a boy.

I will add that I do have a noticable rack.

I would attribute this to the high rate of myopia in Singapore, but even in Canada...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time. fuckyeah 2007-07-09 10:03 pm UTC (link)
	I've actually had this happen to me before as well, and I never quite understood it either. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time.

jsherlock
2007-07-10 12:38 am UTC (link)

HA! Same here. I've had women hit on me, thinking I'm a young teen boy. It's reeeaallly creepy. Especially when I was working at a restaurant. My uniform was a white button-down (which I bought at the men's side, since they're CHEAPER) and black dress pants. Also bought at the men's side. I guess the clothes, and colours, and cut of garments have a lot to do with misrecognition.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time. azurelunatic 2007-07-10 05:53 pm UTC (link)
	That's quite all right. I laughed my head off somewhat after getting over the surprise. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time. tygerr 2007-07-10 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	(here via azurelunatic) I get addressed as "Ma'am" every now and again by store cashiers. They invariably freak out when they hear my undeniably-male voice. But the really weird part of that? I HAVE A FREAKIN' BEARD!! Long hair and a frame that doesn't look like a defensive lineman...so CLEARLY I'm a woman. eyeroll (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: It's not just friends who can have a bit of a hard time. cmar_wingnut 2007-07-09 10:26 pm UTC (link)
	That is funny! Supports my theory that a few visual opposite-gender cues (your sister's beard) can make a person unrecognizable. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fenoxielo524 2007-07-09 08:17 pm UTC (link)
	I think believability of anything is something that should be tailored to fit your needs in fiction. I think this is definitely a place where you can bend reality a little bit. (Reply to this)

tckma
2007-07-09 11:21 pm UTC (link)

Well... I don't know. All I can think of either are performance jobs.

I am male-bodied and consider myself to be genderqueer, but I go to great lengths to make sure it's not visible in public, i.e. I only cross-dress at home.

Perhaps a leg model for commercials although that could be considered "performance." Also, I read a story a while back about a man in a Japanese cosmetic company who was hired to do lipstick testing.

*shrug* Sorry I'm not of more help.

(Reply to this)

	artful 2007-07-10 01:46 pm UTC (link)
	While not a requirement, there are several jobs he might want to crossdress to increase his income. In any profession where compensation is based on tips or commission, women tend to do better. So as a waiter, a clerk, or in direct sales, Pat might choose to crossdress for success. (Reply to this)

	orphan_ann 2007-07-10 02:17 pm UTC (link)
	Cabin boy? (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-08 11:25 pm UTC (link)
	i am a man that likes to wear wemens clothes.i would like to find a job that is ok with men wearing female clothing. im not gay i just like the softer clothing. can you help me (Reply to this)

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