linguaphiles: Thinking in another language

Cass-Cass the Great (

hkitsune) wrote in

linguaphiles,
@ 2008-11-29 20:43:00

Thinking in another language
Okay, so I've been having this problem, and while I know it's relatively normal I'm mostly curious to hear anecdotes. I'm pretty highly functional in French (though I don't know most of the higher-level words that I probably should because most of my French is used with kids, and my grammar still needs a little work with the more elegant constructions) and am sorta intermediate in Turkish. I can say simple sentences in German and Spanish. I'm a native speaker of some sort of American English, but my problem is that, without going to France or Canada, I apparently don't think much in English anymore.

I have a very difficult time coming up with medium-frequency words, and with some higher-frequency words, the first word or concept to come up isn't an English one, but a French or Turkish one (Turkish is admittedly far rarer). I also notice that my syntax tends to be very "Romantic" in papers for class. My syntax is all over the place and I swear to god, my friends must be the most patient people. It kind of feels like how they describe aphasia--I'm losing my English and even though I'm exposed to it all the time, it still feels incomplete. It feels strange to have to say "Oh wait, that's not a word you know" all the time. Does this happen to you guys too, or am I losing my mind?

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aclarar
2008-11-30 03:00 am UTC (link)

Been there.

I am native Spanish speaker. I now think in English most of the time.

I get things mixed in my head with Russian and French. It's annoying. I know the concept, I know there is a word that describes it, but in a conversation I have to constantly stop to think in the right Spanish word.

I used to be really good at Spanish grammar, but now my grammar is confusing in any language.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	hkitsune 2008-11-30 03:03 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I sometimes have to use French words I know and think of the English equivalent, and it's very frustrating... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	marenfuga 2008-11-30 03:34 am UTC (link)
	Same here. It's really frustrating. And I don't even speak english... It was innocuous at first; just some random english thought (that I would be proud of), but now I'm finding myself saying "wait, I know there's a word in spanish for this" in EVERY conversation I have :( (Reply to this) (Parent)

arrowwhiskers
2008-11-30 03:05 am UTC (link)

Ohhh lord I know what you mean. I feel like I constantly have to use my thesaurus while writing papers, because I *know* the English words I'm looking for, but words in other languages have nudged in and gotten in the way so it's harder to drudge up English ones.

Also, the syntax thing. My brain loves Danish syntax, even though I am pretty bad at employing it properly *in Danish*, which is frustrating. Spanish and French syntax also tend to work better than English when you want to emphasize certain things--I'm sure you know what I mean.

I don't so much find that my other vocab interferes with my English vocab, but the other languages I try to speak do tend to interfere with one another a whole lot. Like I'll randomly invent words, only to discover that they exist in a different language/they're similar to something in another language. Sometimes though, I do find times when there is JUST the right word I want, and it comes forth in another language, and I'm not even sure there IS a word for the concept that I want in English.

That said, I was SURE that "tristesse" was an English word. But it's not. :| And I blame French.

(Reply to this)

	sjcarpediem 2008-11-30 03:39 am UTC (link)
	Been there, done that. Keep it up, try to be patient, your brain will sort things out sooner or later. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	hkitsune 2008-11-30 03:53 am UTC (link)
	Well, see, the problem is that the reverse never happens--I don't really ever get English words in my French. So it's really more...lack of use of English, not that my brain doesn't know the two. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sjcarpediem 2008-11-30 04:03 am UTC (link)
	Would you prefer it be the other way 'round? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	deird1 2008-11-30 03:40 am UTC (link)
	Well, ten years after my whole 3 months in Germany, I still say "Oh - entschuldigung" when I accidentally bump into someone... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	invinciblend 2008-11-30 06:55 am UTC (link)
	Hah, same thing here. Went there for a fortnight a couple of years ago and I still say "Entschuldigung", "Danke", and "Bitte". As well as asking "Have you a book?" and "Want you to come too?", which mystifies everyone. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bu_yao_ren 2008-12-04 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	Lol, my friends some years ago told me I apaologized too much and that I wasn't allowed to say "Entschuldigung!" any more. I then switched to "Sorry!", they shut up - and I can't get it out of my system any more. (Reply to this) (Parent)

lunatic_the_7th
2008-11-30 04:44 am UTC (link)

I'm a native English speaker but I think in mixed Spanish and French about half the time. (I have the same teacher for both French and Spanish at my school, and when we talk it's in French, Spanish and English.) My problem is that I can never think in the language I want to. When I want to speak English I think in Spanish, when I want to speak Spanish I think in French, and when I speak French I think in BOTH. I think it's something your brain just eventually has to sort out on it's own

(Reply to this)

bonsly
2008-11-30 05:01 am UTC (link)

Oh boy. Yes, the Babel complex (which I just totally made up right now and might not even be anything, but I think it sounds cool. Anyways....)

My native tongue is Mexican Spanish (Castillian Mexican for those uptight occasion), my second tongue is English. I find myself constantly asking my mom or my friends who speak Spanish how to translate an English word into Spanish. Now, it's got(t?)en to the point where I get so frustrated trying to find the word that I just say it in English.

As well, whenever I speak Spanish, I have the strongest urge to say things in French. Example, when I want to say "Yo se" what I really want to say is "Je sais." I bite my tongue with the French because people always give me weird looks like "wtf are you saying?"

(Reply to this)

	shizuku_san 2008-11-30 05:09 am UTC (link)
	This is sort of related... the more I study Japanese, the worse I become at doing English crossword puzzles. The Japanese version of the clue takes up so much of my brain I can't think of what the English answer might be. (Reply to this)

	callate_y_baila 2008-11-30 06:14 am UTC (link)
	yeah im a native speaker of turkish but i've lost it recently. i'm fluent in spanish and when i speak turkish i'll accidentally switch to spanish. i have lived in the states all my life -- i speak english -- but i think in spanish a lot and oftentimes when given a choice between reading english and spanish i choose spanish because reading spanish has become the easier of the two (Reply to this)

	eastertheatre 2008-11-30 06:17 am UTC (link)
	Yes, sometimes I fear that I've lost my ability to write in English without Italian syntax creeping in. (Reply to this)

akibare
2008-11-30 06:32 am UTC (link)

I speak English and Japanese, English speaking parents, went to school in Japanese, then college in English (but for engineering FWIW). Japanese was the "high status" language for my formative years. My daily language is English now.

I read a lot in both, I suppose, though most of my pleasure reading is in Japanese. Non-fiction I try to balance the languages specifically because I like to have a good vocabulary in both.

But, the part related to the post: I was at some party of English speakers in the US, my normal friends now. And, as the conversation went, I wanted to give an anecdote about being stung by a... kurage. クラゲに刺された。 At the beach, with a friend, in high school, we were swimming and the kurage were there and we got stung by them, had to swim away and my friend cut her hand on a rock.

Okay, well, it was a party and people talking so the time to make that comment went by, I missed it, couldn't bring it up.

But, I realized anyway, I hadn't any idea all of a sudden what kurage is in English. Annoying part was I KNEW I really did know the word but it wouldn't come.

Now, if I was actually telling the story I'd describe the thing and someone would say "oh yes a XXX" and I would say "of course" and it would be solved, but the time was past. Dammit.

So it bugged the HECK out of me for hours, one of those things the more you think about it the less it comes. What the heck is it I can SEE it in my mind, what is the word???

Late late that night, finally I woke up from sleeping, ah yes, a JELLYFISH.

It was like scratching an itch that wouldn't quit!

There are other words the other direction too, things you only ever talk about at home, and so I said them in English to my English speaking parents and then all of a sudden I would be outside the house and realize, wait, what DO you call that thing? Usually the "talk around it and someone will mention it at which point obviously I recognize the word upon hearing it" worked, but it still bugged me so I'd never forget it afterward.

It's like spinning plates.

(Reply to this)

graeco_celt
2008-11-30 08:34 am UTC (link)

Hmm, my situation is different to yours because I am living in the country of the language I'm learning (well, two languages actually but I only really 'live' in one of them).

I have always been very good with my own language (English) - it's a defining aspect of my personality - so imagine my frustration now, when I have to use it and the simplest of everyday words will not come to to me! The worst thing about it is that my Catalan is not 100% fluent yet, so I can't even say I've exchanged one for the other!

As I said, though, it's not exactly the same as your situation because, in my personal life, the only time I use English now is with my husband (we're pretty much 50-50, Catalan and English, at home) or when I write or speak to friends and family back in New Zealand. Well, I also use it here on the Net but that's different to direct and immediate communication, where you don't really have the option of running off to get a dictionary!

In an extension of this, when my father came to stay for a week, earlier this year, he was having a giggle over the fact that, even when I was speaking English with him, my grammar was quite often Catalan. I pointed out that there are some things that are just inherently quicker and more efficient in Catalan (and others, of course, in English).

It is a weird feeling though, especially for someone who has always been so reliant on language!

It hasn't really happened to me with Spanish yet because my personal circumstances mean that it's still more of a language I'm learning, than a language I'm living in.

Final note (before I end this long ramble!): before I came here last year, the only other language I'd ever learned was Mandarin, which I studied for four years at university.
For about the first 6 months, when I really didn't have much Catalan at my disposal, when I was struggling for a word, it would often come to me in Mandarin (no use at all to my poor mother-in-law! ;D)
It was as though my brain had it sorted out that I needed a 'foreign' word, rather than English, and just grabbed what it had in stock!

(Reply to this)

	ledh 2008-11-30 08:38 am UTC (link)
	I think in English, especially when I am emotional. I sometimes get stuck in Turkish too, but that doesn't happen often :) tanistigimiza memnun oldum :D (Reply to this)

72stroopwafels
2008-11-30 09:12 am UTC (link)

Reading this makes me happy because I thought I was the only one! I'm a native speaker of British English and I learn German and Dutch. These three languages are all reasonably similar, so it means I get even more confused. I think a low point was when my friend asked me if we had any eggcups, and I looked at her in total confusion, because I'd forgotten what eggcups meant. Less weird, but still frustrating, is when I understand what a German or Dutch word means, but forget the English translation. It means I'm kind of stuck between three languages. I almost always speak Dutch when I want to speak German. Arrrrgggghhhhh.

(Reply to this)

shadowvalkyrie
2008-11-30 09:17 am UTC (link)

I have the same problem. I'm a native speaker of German, but I read and write (and occasionally talk) so much in English that I often have trouble finding a German word that doesn't have an exact counterpart in English and produce weird sentence structures. But if I neglect English for a few days, the same happens the other way round. It's not as bad with my other languages, because I'm not nearly fluent enough to think in those, so they can't meddle with my German which sort of goes on uninterrupted in the background.

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isolationthirst
2008-11-30 10:55 am UTC (link)

Hah, seems this is pretty common with another language(s) learners. My native language is Croatian, but I started forcing myself think in English few years ago as means of improvement, and now I'm completely stuck with it. I have to repet myself half the time because I have the weirdest syntax when speaking Croatian, not to mention not being able to recall the most simple of words from time to time. My Japanese is only beginner level but on occasion the first word on my mind would be Japanese. Plus I'm majoring in Hindii and Sanskrit as of this year, so we'll see how that's going to play out ^^

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	pseudoreasoning 2008-11-30 11:42 am UTC (link)
	fortunately for me, 1) Philippines is a bilingual country (they would definitely understand if i keep on speaking in English) 2) Taglish (Tagalog + English) is acceptable... so switching often (even in the same sentence) doesnt bother me (or anyone here) Your situation is normal. I'm currently studying French and I sometimes feel like my English spelling becoming "less correct" (Reply to this)

	haikujaguar 2008-11-30 12:14 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe it happens for the same reason I speak Spanish with an English accent, but if I try to speak Japanese I end up using a (very good) Spanish accent. But try to apply the Spanish accent to the Spanish words? Fail. What?? Sigh. :) (Reply to this)

bolboreta
2008-11-30 01:30 pm UTC (link)

I actually use English words/expressions when I'm talking in Spanish with my classmates (we're translation students, I can assume they'll understand me). My grammar is also a mess.

When I was in Belgium I spent most of the time with another girl from Spain and a half-English half-Mexican guy. We'd mix both languages all the time, and after a while my Spanish friend told me "You know, I thought you were pretentious because you were using English words all the time. But it's true, they just invade your mind!" Obviously, it was happening to her as well *laughs*

(Reply to this)

	nicoleja 2008-11-30 03:00 pm UTC (link)
	I am a native (US) English speaker studying both French and Spanish, and I get the three mixed up all the time. Especially French and Spanish. Sometimes, out of context, I hear/ look at something written in either language and it takes me a moment to figure out which language it is. (Reply to this)

bohemiabythesea
2008-11-30 06:51 pm UTC (link)

Happens to me all the time. I am a German native speaker and live in Britain, and I always annoy my parents when I come back for holidays, because I will just randomly use English words in German sentences, and they think I'm doing it on purpose. Since many of my friends live and work in an English-speaking context, it's not much of a problem with them: it happens to them, too. We have been known to switch between languages several times in conversations, because an English word will trigger an English conversation.

I think that over time your brain learns to compartamentalise and offer choices of words in both languages, depending on which one you are 'tuned into'. This, in turn, becomes a bit of a problem if you're working on translations, because your brain might have separated the languages in a way that makes it difficult to find direct equivalents.

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	buckfush530 2008-11-30 10:16 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, it can be scary when it happens. The thing to keep in mind is that you probably won't lose your English, it'll just be Franglasized somewhat. And you can probably reverse the process, especially if you work out some boundaries as to where and when you think in English or French (or whatever). (Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2008-12-01 12:59 am UTC (link)

I don't think there's any need to become alarmed at interference between languages, especially in the early stages of leaning a new one. However there will come a point when you'll have to decide how actively you want to maintain a language, particularly your native one because it does and will deteriorate through lack of deliberate practice. This might not be the end of the world, mind you, depending on your circumstances. However it is a great example of why people with a high degree of fluency in several languages do not necessarily make the best translators - you need complete, current and active command of your mother tongue for that. Understanding is only a fraction of what you need to do to translate!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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