linguaphiles: Taboo English

pertelote22 (

pertelote22) wrote in

linguaphiles,
@ 2008-06-18 16:51:00

Current location:	Austin, Texas
Current mood:	okay
Current music:	Everybody's Talkin' -- Madeleine Peyroux
Entry tags:	taboos

Taboo English
Please delete this post if its contents are inappropriate.

I came across a clip on YouTube that lampoons John McCain's calling his wife the C-word. While this clip is admittedly very political, I thought folks here might find it interesting to see taboo words in action. Very subtly, the N-word makes an oblique and delightfully understated appearance--and one wonders if IT is the worst word in the English language.

I cannot bring myself even to type the C-word or the N-word--I have a really hard time saying either word, in fact. In American English, these are the two worst words. I did use the N-word when I was teaching Derek Walcott last semester, but I was quoting him. I think that's the only way I could use the C-word in class, too--quoting McCain. Ah, passing the blame.

Would you show this clip in class to demonstrate taboo words in action?

(Post a new comment)

	apollotiger 2008-06-18 10:04 pm UTC (link)
	Weirdly enough, I never heard “cunt” used when I was growing up, and as a result don’t have it as a harshly taboo word in my mind. For me, it’s somewhere between “shit” and “fuck”. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ultimateairn 2008-06-18 10:11 pm UTC (link)
	SAME! I never heard any one say "cunt" when I was a kid, so it doesn't even seem like a bad word to me. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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	shizuku_san 2008-06-18 10:18 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah. I think the first time I heard "cunt" used was when I saw the Vagina Monologues. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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vyctori, 2008-06-18 10:27 pm UTC

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pertelote22, 2008-06-19 02:37 pm UTC

	fencer_x 2008-06-18 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	Same way; also, to me (me being a woman) I don't find it nearly as offensive or degrading as the N-word (maybe I'm just not as familiar with the etymology of it as the N-word though?). I'd never say it (if I was mad at another woman, she'd be a bitch, not a cunt), not out of it being taboo, but...well, there are more common swears already in use. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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socialismnow, 2008-06-19 06:52 am UTC

	laymelow 2008-06-18 10:30 pm UTC (link)
	Same here. Now, I do hear "cunt" used completely casually, to describe - well, a cunt. Vagina. To me, "cunt" as an insult is just a slightly more vulgar way of saying "arsehole". Not that I'd use it in conversation with someone I didn't know very well. "Bitch" to me means "someone who's bitchy". Not male, not female, just bitchy. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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	handrejka 2008-06-18 10:50 pm UTC (link)
	I never heard the word cunt either until I was about 15 or 16 I'd never heard it and when I did I had to look it up in the dictionary. I see it as taboo though, but only marginaly worse than "fuck". (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ultimateairn 2008-06-18 10:13 pm UTC (link)
	I think I'd use these videos if I was teaching at college level, as primary school is farrrrrr too pc to show anything like this. Especially in the Los Angeles school district. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-18 10:15 pm UTC (link)
	Oh yeah, should clarify college level. It is amusing to imagine what answers a child would give to "what did you learn today in school." LOL (Reply to this) (Parent)

	tsukikage85 2008-06-18 10:14 pm UTC (link)
	And apparently it got removed... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-18 10:16 pm UTC (link)
	Removed? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pertelote22, 2008-06-18 10:21 pm UTC

	butterflymama3 2008-06-18 10:32 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe a college level class. The C-word was/is definitely taboo for me (soon to be a fortysomething). The N-word too. The first time I heard the C-word was I think in the movie Saturday Night Fever. I didn't even know what it meant then. Now looking back, I can't believe it made it through the censors. I don't even like reading porn that uses the C-word. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-18 10:40 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, we're the same generation. I was so surprised when I read the first responses! :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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tonytraductor, 2008-06-19 12:29 am UTC

I like the way it rolls off the tongue... -

tonytraductor, 2008-06-19 12:26 am UTC

limit_breaker
2008-06-18 10:38 pm UTC (link)

Huh. To me, cunt is along the same lines of vulgarity as cock or other slang for penis... I don't have a problem with the words, saying them, hearing them, or writing them, but for some reason they seem more awkward to say in front of people than other profanities like fuck or something.

I do kinda take issue with the n-word, or the f-word (not fuck), or other racial/etc. insults, though... hmm. I guess I just don't think of cunt as being an insult to women in general.

I thought that video was pretty funny, honestly, so if it worked in to a linguistics lesson/presentation/whatever, I think it'd be fine to use, assuming that you're showing it to people above the age of 18.

As a random sidenote... that video really does not look like it was shot in downtown Phoenix, as it so claims. Besides, it says the temperature is 68*. Yeah, celcius, maybe. ;P

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	limit_breaker 2008-06-18 10:40 pm UTC (link)
	Aw. I failed the HTML. :( (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pertelote22, 2008-06-18 10:51 pm UTC

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ultimateairn, 2008-06-18 10:55 pm UTC

	cernunnoswired 2008-06-19 12:19 am UTC (link)
	That's really odd, I find cunt to be the most vulgar of words that I know and really drives home a point. Maybe because it's not said that often and normally elicits a strong response. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gabe_speaks 2008-06-19 12:26 am UTC (link)
	yeah, i think it's only fairly recently that it's been used a lot. and when i hear it, it's always a dude saying it to another dude. i actually like the word, both in erotica and in insults -- it's sharp, quick, nothing lingers about it -- except the echo of the word in one's ear, that is. ♥ cunt (Reply to this) (Parent)

iriacynthe
2008-06-19 12:22 am UTC (link)

I thought about what on earth the 'n-word' could be for at least five minutes, and I couldn't find it on my own, I had to read the comments to get it. Obviously, learning English for several years hasn't installed a proper 'sense of taboo' in me. :P
I'm thinking about taboo words in Dutch, and I can't seem to find any. Of course I know a lot of words that are considered rude and that I wouldn't use when talking to my teacher or my grandmother, but I don't think there's any word that I feel really, extremely uncomfortable with. Most rude words are used quite casually for joking around or teasing friends, even the equivalent of 'nigger'. (To give you an example, the person who carries the beer in our student club is called the 'beer nigger'. This isn't meant in a racist way, it's just a silly name that as far as I know doesn't really bother people.)
I'm wondering wether it's just my age (or the fact that most of my friends happen to be very non-pc), or is it possible that English really has stronger taboo-words?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

necroad
2008-06-19 08:05 am UTC (link)

I remember one of my Dutch friends said "nigger" and I was shocked and she had no idea what I was offended at, because she's perfectly polite and I wouldn't expect her to say such things.

In any case, "cunt" is just slang for vagina around here and I have no qualms with saying it. If ever "nigger" came out of my mouth, it's never meant seriously or as anything against anyone. It's normally inbetween a mix of my friends and I calling each other racial slurs-- e.g "cracker". We're not all white and we all don't mind. I think that's due to influence of the internet though, to be honest and I do actually feel bad whenever I say it. I used to not be able to even say it.

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tekalynn, 2008-06-19 08:21 am UTC

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pertelote22, 2008-06-19 02:52 pm UTC

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iriacynthe, 2008-06-19 06:29 pm UTC

Chocolate? (jk)

tonytraductor
2008-06-19 12:23 am UTC (link)

He called his wife the "C-word"!
Dude....
I love my wife, and I have respect for her...
I would never call her the "C-word"....
That's so awful...unimaginable...
--
Besides...my wife knows where I sleep...
And she has really sharp kitchen knives...
--
And I agree that said term is to be reserved for only the most cursed of individuals and in the most extremest of circumstances...
Very naughty word, that...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Chocolate? (jk) pertelote22 2008-06-19 12:31 am UTC (link)
	Oh yeah, LOL, we've been so focused on the word that we've glossed over the fact that he called his wife that. But I guess she must be used to his potty-mouth by now! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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lilitusama, 2008-06-19 12:34 am UTC

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pertelote22, 2008-06-19 12:42 am UTC

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shizuku_san, 2008-06-19 01:02 am UTC

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biascut, 2008-06-19 09:10 am UTC

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tonytraductor, 2008-06-19 02:06 pm UTC

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pertelote22, 2008-06-19 02:57 pm UTC

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tonytraductor, 2008-06-19 04:06 pm UTC

	gabe_speaks 2008-06-19 12:30 am UTC (link)
	that shit cracked me up, by the way. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-19 12:35 am UTC (link)
	Oh yeah, me too. It's a wicked piece of humor, though it sounds like some of its effectiveness, how taboo the C-word is, is lost on college-aged folks. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	vyctori 2008-06-19 01:48 am UTC (link)
	Somewhat OT, but of curiosity, what sort of class are you teaching? I'm wondering, because if there's room for it, you might want to address the use as a form of humour of the woman in the pressroom kicking the man in the balls. It's pretty troublesome. (Reply to this) (Thread)

pertelote22
2008-06-19 02:06 am UTC (link)

It's more of a potential course--I'm just getting started. I don't think I can use it in the Fall, but in the Spring I will be teaching some kind of English Language class, probably HEL. Taboo words would certainly be a part of any language course, though from the looks of the responses, I'll squirm more than my students will.

I'm not sure what you mean with "It's pretty troublesome." What is? And why women of the pressroom--in the clip, it's mostly the guys who come up with the humor lines. I don't mean this antagonistically--I'm just not clear on what you mean, and I'd like to be.

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vyctori, 2008-06-19 02:20 am UTC

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eavanmoore, 2008-06-19 02:28 am UTC

jetaimerai
2008-06-19 02:03 am UTC (link)

I'm college-aged and I find this word taboo. o__O Not to the level of the N-word (that's the worst curse word to me, I refuse to even type it), but quite above the level of "fuck", etc, which I use on a daily basis without batting an eye. xD

In this video though... when I actually heard what McCain said, that was offensive, but here the word doesn't bother me at all. I think it's all about the intent, really. I usually only hear "cunt" in a REALLY nasty way, so that's why I think it's more taboo.

(Reply to this)

ysgawen
2008-06-19 03:10 am UTC (link)

I would never use the C word, the N word or the F word. Th C word is the most offensive word that can be used towards a woman and anyone who used it to me would find himself choking on his own testicles. The N word is unacceptable, as are all such racist words. The F word, although once an acceptable Anglo Saxon term is now so offensive that I don't even like to read it in passing and will turn off a TV programme in which it is used too often.

One thing that interests me is that Americans seem to have no problem with the word crap, whereas in the British culture where I grew up, it was deemed far worse than shit and heading rapidly towards F word territory.

If McCain spoke to his wife like that, she obviously isn't maintaining proper discipline in the home. I don't know any man who would dare to speak like that to his wife.

Conversely, over here, bitch is only slightly offensive, whereas in America, it offends deeply.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	nyucknyuck 2008-06-19 05:35 am UTC (link)
	Conversely, over here, bitch is only slightly offensive, whereas in America, it offends deeply. I suppose to some "bitch" is offensive, but from what I've seen, "slut" is much worse. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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pertelote22, 2008-06-19 02:31 pm UTC

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socialismnow, 2008-06-19 05:07 pm UTC

graeco_celt
2008-06-19 08:25 am UTC (link)

I'm in my 30s and I grew up in New Zealand, where the word cunt is slung around quite freely BUT, more often than not, between males.

This can range from genuine insults, directed at an 'enemy' to a kind of half-joking use, between friends ("Ahah, y' locked y'keys in the ute, ya dumb cunt" etc).

I've never ever liked this word but I think my dislike for it is more generalised than what I would call a 'taboo' word.

I would never use nigger, chink, gook, wop, fag etc because they are insults based on who/what a person is and, as far as I'm concerned, that is off limits, regardless of how I feel about that person as a person.

I wouldn't use cunt, whore etc either but they're in a different and more general category, for me. They're more about projecting a category onto people, which I don't like either, rather than insulting them for what they inherently are.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-19 02:34 pm UTC (link)
	What's a ute? It sounds like none of these words is taboo for you. That's probably a good thing, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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graeco_celt, 2008-06-19 05:24 pm UTC

	me_vs_gutenberg 2008-06-19 09:22 am UTC (link)
	To get back to your original question, I think it would be absolutely acceptable to show this video in a college classroom, especially for the point it makes about "cultural safeguards". That's a nice starting point for a discussion about easy or hard it is to influence/subvert people's vocabulary. (Reply to this) (Thread)

pertelote22
2008-06-19 02:48 pm UTC (link)

Indeed. I was completely wrapped up in my own taboo-voodoo when I posted this, hence the hemming, hawing, and hiding. But the response it's elicited has been really fantastic, and I will definitely use this in Spring. I will be most interested in how my mostly Southern students respond to the notion of taboo words, since most everyone here doesn't share my taboo words, especially the C-word. I see lots of fertile ground in historical, generational, dialectal, and regional differences not only in taboo words but just so-called "bad" words.

I also like the question that's at the heart of this discussion: is it good, bad, or indifferent to invest words with such power that they become taboo? This connects to the power of names that can be traced back to Proto-IE, and the processes of pejoration and amelioration.

La!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	darth_paorvosa 2008-06-19 06:58 pm UTC (link)
	http://youtube.com/watch?v=G2nTbqbtGug i saw this a while ago and just realized it pertains to the subject. you may have seen it (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-19 07:50 pm UTC (link)
	ZOMG that's good! Thanks! I need to figure out how to collect youtube episodes; I also really adore Eddie Izzard's Old English-Frisian episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34&feature=related (Reply to this) (Parent)

	chochotte 2008-06-19 07:33 pm UTC (link)
	My friends and I say cunt all the time. I blame Withnail & I. Once you've heard the line, "Monty you terrible cunt!", you can't but use it at every opportunity. Seriously, I say cunt a lot. Not TOO much, because otherwise how would I show real dislike? But I have no qualms saying it, I just reserve it for people I really want to show my disdain or disapproval of. (Reply to this)

socialismnow
2008-06-19 10:30 pm UTC (link)

Came across some relevant stories:

"An inquiry was initiated by [Australia's] Liberal Senator Cory Bernardi, after he watched Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares programme. Senator Bernardi claimed that one episode had contained 'the f-word' 80 times in 40 minutes. [...] Mr Bernardi said there was 'no excuse for gratuitous bad language to be broadcast repeatedly' when it could be 'beeped out'. [...] But senators stopped short of imposing an outright ban on swearwords [...] [Network executives] said Ramsay's single use of another, more offensive, profanity was unacceptable and would not be broadcast again." (BBC news today).

"Australia's official tourism body has been ordered to take down posters in the UK because they include swearing. Adverts promoting Australia with the slogan 'So where the bloody hell are you?' prompted 32 complaints." (BBC, 28/3/2007).

"What makes me angry is blasphemy. I think it is disgraceful. I would much rather they used the f-word." (Rt Rev John Broadhurst, Bishop of Fulham, quoted on the BBC).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pertelote22 2008-06-19 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, great catches. I particularly like the last one. Thanks! (Reply to this) (Parent)

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