ragnarok20 ([info]ragnarok20) wrote in [info]libertarianism,
@ 2007-01-10 14:26:00
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Idiots
First of all, [info]kadeshaderow, you're an idiot. The post was talking about the general concept of possession of child pornography, not of the specific case at hand. Undoubtedly, as libertarians we surely agree that the current manner of sex offender status as is used in the United States has gone way too far innumerable times, and that the general age of consent in America is too high as well.

As for the issue of child pornography itself, we most all would agree that the creation of such child porn would be illegal. It gets easier and easier to define what is a 'child' the younger you go. Clearly a twelve year old is a child who is most likely not capable of consenting. The reason it gets harder and harder to define is because childhood has been extended in modern society, and we now have the teenage years where people are considered to be between childhood and adulthood.

So, if a child cannot consent, then the creation of pornography would be illegal. That is, however, not the point of contention that is up for debate. The debate was on the possession of child pornography.

First, we must understand the difference between malum prohibitum and malum in se. Malum prohibitum is the set of laws where the act in question is only bad because it is forbidden and does not actually harm any victims. Malum in se, on the other hand, is the set of laws where the act in question does in fact harm the victim, or damage the victim's property.

While one could conceivably liken the issue somewhat to possession of stolen goods, this is not a proper analogy. In economics the radio would be considered rivalrous in consumption. If someone possesses the radio, it is not necessarily possible for someone else to be in possession of the radio. The child pornography on the other hand is a digital rendering, and whether it is sold or obtained for free via the internet, the pornography itself does not violate the rights of the child.

As I have stated before, the creation of child pornography is clearer a violation of the rights of the child because the child cannot consent. In modern society, the definition of child is hard to define, but I would propose that the age would be somewhere below the age of sixteen (if you can drive a car, you can have sex and videotape it!). Of course this ought to be flexible to allow for relationships between people of similar ages. The question, however, was the possession.

For the reasons stated above, I don't believe that the possession itself should be a crime, nor should it constitute mandatory counseling. Even if they are perverts, they are not violating the rights of the child. Those that create the porn, however, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.



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[info]scrapdog
2007-01-10 10:54 pm UTC (link)
Would cannibalism (more specifically, the eating of human flesh that someone else butchered) be classified under malum prohibitum?

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-10 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Yes, especially if you were unaware.

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[info]superconnected
2007-01-10 10:54 pm UTC (link)
Nuh uh!!!! 7 years old!! Can't believe you are defending PERVERTS!! My tiny brain is incapable of arguing an issue theoretically & rationally outside of the narrow confines of the case at hand!!! Derr derr derr!

[/mocking] :-)

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[info]kadeshaderow
2007-01-11 12:14 am UTC (link)
You missed a spot during your blatant knob-polishing.

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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 12:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 12:39 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]hohum, 2007-01-12 03:55 am UTC
Heh - [info]superconnected, 2007-01-11 12:49 am UTC

[info]thetoddtm
2007-01-10 11:25 pm UTC (link)
The only reason I can find to disagree with this is that, if by definition we consider that the pornography was created without the child's consent, the act of possessing it would entail having something that someone did not consent to having created. If you already know that it was created without the child's consent and you have it in your possession for the express intent of use then you are possibly aiding in the illegal act. Keep in mind I am no legal scholar and am pulling this out of my conscience.

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-10 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Without the purchase or sell of it, how is that aiding again? if it were to create some form of market whereby others are benefiting from the sale of it, I can see your possession as being valid. However...

Take this example I have concocted. First, take out of your head the concept of genetic engineering. Marijuana is a plant which contains THC, and is currently illegal. However, the production of hemp requires the growth of this plant. If you buy hemp, are you therefore supporting the growth of a plant which has been currently defined as illegal by the government?

Or, take the case of DMT. Our bodies naturally produce this 'drug' in various quantities throughout our lives. In large doses twice, when our sex is determined and when he die. In smaller doses it occurs when we have an orgasm. When your body naturally produces this chemical which has been defined as an illegal drug by the United States government, is your body therefore illegal every time you have an orgasm?

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(no subject) - [info]thetoddtm, 2007-01-10 11:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-10 11:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thetoddtm, 2007-01-10 11:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-10 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thetoddtm, 2007-01-11 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]volkris, 2007-01-11 12:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thetoddtm, 2007-01-11 12:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thetoddtm, 2007-01-11 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 12:34 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 02:24 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 02:26 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 02:29 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 03:18 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]volkris, 2007-01-11 02:51 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]rasilio, 2007-01-10 11:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thetoddtm, 2007-01-11 12:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]diabhol, 2007-01-11 12:56 am UTC

[info]garthnak
2007-01-10 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Mark this day, the day that I agree with [info]ragnarok20 almost entirely. There are three things I disagree on:
  1. [info]kadeshaderow is not an idiot - he's just stubborn and often deliberately obtuse.

  2. I don't know that the age of consent is necessarily "too high." Perhaps for some people it is too low. The problem is precisely that it differs from person to person, and that is why declaring it to be "18" or "15" or whatever is entirely arbitrary. The only real markers for adulthood we have are biological - that is, pubescence - but that says nothing about the faculties of the individual. I don't pretend to have a solution, but it has to be more complicated than "You're 17 and he's 52, therefore it is a criminal act."

  3. I do think that the distinction between sale of child pornography and possession of child pornography is significant. Direct purchase of child pornography from its creators could create an accompliceship on the part of the buyer. I also do not much of an ethical problem as a libertarian with punishing those who support child porn. But if you obtain the images for free off the Internet or what have you, that can hardly count as support - therefore there is no legitimate reason for it to be a criminal offense. The fact that the images themselves are non-rivalrous goods doesn't really enter into it.
Other than that, pretty much spot on.

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-10 11:42 pm UTC (link)
While I agree that setting an age is arbitrary, but it is still important to set an age for any legal definition and to determine what rights are constituted under law. I don't quite agree with the whole idea of having a test to determine adulthood simply because it seems that kind of standard would seem even more arbitrary. Because of the fact that that it does differ from person to person, we should give them the benefit of the doubt and make it lower.

Also, I don't know if particularly agree with the idea of the buyer being an accomplish since I don't necessarily see the creation of demand in the market as being an essentially illegal act. There are other comment threads in this post where I address this, and if you are interested then take look there because I would prefer to have less comment threads expressing the same postulations.

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(no subject) - [info]tcpip, 2007-01-11 02:33 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 03:15 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]theminaoflife, 2007-01-11 06:11 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 04:50 am UTC

[info]interdictor
2007-01-11 09:34 am UTC (link)
No, he's actually an idiot.

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[info]greap
2007-01-10 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Undoubtedly, as libertarians we surely agree that the current manner of sex offender status as is used in the United States has gone way too far innumerable time

Agree completely, the problem is just as bad in the UK but finally the nonsense evidence that keeps cropping up at CP trials is being challenged here http://www.inquisition21.com/

and that the general age of consent in America is too high as well.

Again agree. Canada based theirs on research rather than just picking a number out of the air, everyone should follow suit IMHO.

For the reasons stated above, I don't believe that the possession itself should be a crime, nor should it constitute mandatory counseling. Even if they are perverts, they are not violating the rights of the child. Those that create the porn, however, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You did make some interesting points but I have to disagree about possession never infringing the rights of the child for two reasons.

1. Pictures of the child are property of the child. Without consent (from a Guardian in case of a child) you are violating the property rights of the child. A child has rights just like any human, the guardian just holds those rights in trust until they reach an age where they can dispense them by themselves.

2. While I agree that once a CP picture has been seen by several people one more person seeing it is not going to make any difference when you go back to source that is not the case. If someone subscribes to a site with the express purpose of gaining access to CP and the operators go out and either pay people to create new CP or rape children themselves in order to create new CP then you are an accessory to that action. However, if a site were to stock images only already in circulation then the crime is purely property related and should be persecuted as such.

I do agree that the situation is completely out of control. People in position of CP are now getting tougher jail sentences then those actually abusing children. The US Government is the largest operator of CP sites in the world currently (they use them for illegal honey trap operations since sex offenders have no rights so entrapment clearly doesn't apply to them). Obtaining warrants on the basis of chat logs or IP's visiting sites is also a huge breach of the 4th Amendment rights (and also the huge cover-ups and chain of custody problems with the Landslide and BidPay operations).

Having said that it is not the first time though. If you cast your Google back to the late 80's there was a huge scare around all Gay men working in childcare being satanic child molesters.

This is an area that holds great personal interest and concern for me. If laws such as Megan’s law and the clear miscarriages of justice (Honeytraps, non-crimes a la To Catch a Predator etc) can be carried out against paedophiles what it is to stop governments extending that to other people too? In the UK BDSM porn has been pretty much rendered illegal now which means to posses it will end you up in exactly the same way as a paedophile despite it being a consenting activity between two adults. In the US ancient profanity across state lines laws are being used to prosecute distributors of Bukkake, Scat & Urine pornography now too. How long until any kind of sexual activity that is not mandated by the moral majority will find you in prison for several years then unable to find work or housing due to the registration requirements. How long until it moves from sexuality to other areas of life? If you are a monarchist you get locked up for sedition and other things such as that. It is a very slippery slope indeed and we are sliding down it at the speed of light.

This kind of thing happened in the past, with the Jews in WW2 and it is happening again right under our noses.

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-10 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Of course there is the question of intellectual property as you stated in number one, but without the ability to consent, do they have right to determine the distribution.

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(no subject) - [info]greap, 2007-01-11 12:52 am UTC

[info]volkris
2007-01-11 12:28 am UTC (link)
Just to be, perhaps, a little pedantic...

As others have said, IP is an extremely questionable concept that we've discussed numerous times here. I, for one, consider it to be entirely incompatible with libertarianism.

Secondly, the actual rights of children and their status under libertarian philosophy is also very questionable. Again, it's something that's been discussed at length here, but generally it's simply not well defined. Different definitions will have different effects on the reasoning you presented here.

Fortunately we don't need to reason based purely on abstracts; we can consider the nature of information distribution to see that possession can occur without any effect at all on the proposed victim. Based on that it's simple to conclude that possession should be allowed.

Perhaps you weren't asserting anything about IP or the position of children strongly, but just in case you were I figured I'd throw this in.

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(no subject) - [info]greap, 2007-01-11 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]volkris, 2007-01-11 01:14 am UTC

[info]kadeshaderow
2007-01-11 12:02 am UTC (link)
Why won't you be my e-friend =(

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-11 12:27 am UTC (link)
Because you're an objectivist and, holding true to tradition, you have shown yourself incapable of understanding the actual arguments at hand or making even a single logically cohesive argument.

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(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 12:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 12:41 am UTC

[info]kadeshaderow
2007-01-11 12:10 am UTC (link)
Undoubtedly, as libertarians we surely agree that the current manner of sex offender status as is used in the United States has gone way too far innumerable times, and that the general age of consent in America is too high as well.

Also, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. IT IS A FACT.

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[info]garthnak
2007-01-11 12:50 am UTC (link)
This is not the first time I have seen you abuse the No true Scotsman fallacy. It doesn't really apply here, especially since the quoted line is not an argument but an assumption. If you have reason to believe it is an incorrect assumption (eg., you can provide a counter-example), go ahead and point that out.

Even if your usage here were correct - while there is certainly a place for calling people on their logical fallacies, you really should do more than just assert "That's a logical fallacy!" and leave it at that. Perhaps you could illuminate us with some libertarian (or non-unlibertarian) reasons to defend the current implementation of sex offense legislation or the age of consent.

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(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 01:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]garthnak, 2007-01-11 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 01:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]garthnak, 2007-01-11 01:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadeshaderow, 2007-01-11 01:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]interdictor, 2007-01-11 09:36 am UTC

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[info]volkris
2007-01-11 02:54 am UTC (link)
1. There's no reason to permit people to possess child pornography.

Proof?

2. The possession of child pornography creates a demand for it.

False.

Since #3 and your conclusion build on this false premise your conclusion is decisively wrong.

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(no subject) - [info]volkris, 2007-01-11 03:34 am UTC

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-11 03:19 am UTC (link)
I have already addressed this particular view in various threads of comments, read through them and you'd see why this line of reasoning is false.

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(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 04:54 am UTC

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[info]garthnak
2007-01-11 05:09 am UTC (link)
I can just as easily make the opposite argument.
1. There is no reason to prohibit people to possess child pornography.
2. Prohibition creates a black market for it.
3. The black market for it creates and supports the production of it - along with the other crime that necessarily accompanies a black market.
4. That prohibition would create and support the production of a black market is a good reason to permit it.

Therefore, there is no reason to prohibit the possession of child pornography, and and there is a good reason to permit it. Nope, you lose again.
Of course, like your argument, I find this to be an unsatisfyingly simplistic framing of the debate. Like yours, it assumes things about the desirability of prohibition or permission without explanation. Like yours, it assumes the presence of a single consequence is sufficient to validate its conclusion. So unlike you, I wouldn't embarrass myself by trying to pass it off as useful.

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(no subject) - [info]peachik, 2007-01-11 09:14 pm UTC

[info]seanr
2007-01-11 05:32 am UTC (link)
2. The possession of child pornography creates a demand for it.

I don't understand this argument. Forget about users who pay or "trade": the vast majority of child pornography accessed in the US is freely accessed. A very small minority is actually paid for, usually distributed from overseas. There is no correlation between the quantity of pornographic media on the net and the number of casual viewers. Also, the same people who create molestation media would be molesting whether or not it is going to be filmed.

3. The demand for it creates and supports the production of it.

This shit is not produced with high quality cameras, directors, lighting, a sound team, special effects....it is a cheap handheld in someone's basement. The producers don't require money or moral support or cheerleaders to do this. Sick fucks with access to children "create and support the production of it". You are trying to shift the blame to the symptoms rather than the disease.

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(no subject) - [info]seanr, 2007-01-11 05:52 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]seanr, 2007-01-11 05:56 am UTC

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[info]ragnarok20
2007-01-11 05:13 am UTC (link)
Your point was that things that encourage or cause criminal behavior ought to be made illegal. That point was well addressed in the aforementioned link.

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[info]interdictor
2007-01-11 09:33 am UTC (link)
>>First of all, kadeshaderow, you're an idiot.<<

This is news to you?

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[info]lindsay40k
2007-01-11 04:14 pm UTC (link)
Alright, now.

If somebody purchases child pornography, they are creating a demand for child pornography. The manufacture of child pornography necessarily involves the violation of the rights of a child. In essence, a person who purchases child pornography is paying somebody else to violate a child.

Therefore, buying child pronography is as much a violation of the rights of the children involved in its production as hiring a hitman to kill somebody is a violation of the rights of their victim.

So then this boils down to a similar situation as to whether the hitman alone should be prosecuted with murder, or if the hiring party shares responsibility.

Therefore, if you think that purchasers of child pornography should face no charges, you must also say that anybody has the right to put a price on your head, and hire assassins to kill you.

Are you willing to accept this?

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[info]lefthandedninja
2007-01-11 04:45 pm UTC (link)
You're a little late to the game. :)

We've moved way passed "purchasing" at talking mostly about "possession". (Everyone seems to agree that purchasing should be illegal, but owning is a different story.)

The other big question is whether or not outlawing possession of CP actually does anything to deter the manufacture of CP.

Then a bunch of people got angry and called a bunch of other people idiots and the thread degraded into chaos.

...I think you are all caught up now.

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(no subject) - [info]lefthandedninja, 2007-01-11 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seanr, 2007-01-11 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-11 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lindsay40k, 2007-01-12 04:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok20, 2007-01-12 04:26 pm UTC

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