The Láadan Language Community

New Translation Exercise

Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:17:40 GMT

Wil sha, all.

From the same source as the last few exercises, here's Frank Herbert's "Litany Against Fear" from the Dune series (this is the original from the first Dune book; there were several variant versions through the series).

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

What say we each try a translation and then discuss & reconcile them? I'll post mine in a few days.

Amberwind

A newcomer with a few questions

Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:23:17 GMT

Wil sha, community!
I hope you will all bear with me, as I am new to this community and relatively new to the language. The concept of a female-conceived and continued language interests me. I will admit up front that not only an I male, but I have not read the books from whence Láadan comes. Perhaps this explains my ignorance, but I have read through as much material as I could on a cursopry first look. Upon discovering Láadan, I found problems with a few of its core concepts (for example the anti-lying measures), but overall, time has sweetened the conlang and I actually feel it's worthwhile to look into it more. I should probably spend my time learning Esperanto, Lojban, ThlIngan Hol, Sindarin, or even Verdurian, but Láadan is where I have found myself, if nothing else due to being interested and conflicted about it to a very unique point. (Esperanto, Lojban and thlIngan Hol are too aggravating in basic principles to hold my interest.)
The VSO order of Láadan is unique and charming, the system of phonemes uniquely soft, and the general feminine perspective very... for lack of a better word, mind altering. However, a few questions/quips:

1. Why use dipthongs? Since Láadan leaves out so many useable letters of the latin alphabet, one would think that suitable letters for SH, ZH, TH, and LH would exist. I vote for either S or X for SH, either Z or J for ZH, T for TH, and J or K for LH. Forgive me for saying this, but the alphabet A B D E H I J L M N O R S T U W Z seems more beautiful to me than one employing dipthongs.

2. Why use accents to point out heightened tone? It seems (from what I've observed) perfectly possible to guess the heightened tones of vowels by their placement. This could be handled by grammatical rules that don't need to be reinforced in orthography, or a special high-tone marker letter. In this ASCII world, accents are a hassle.

3. The lateral fricative is an excellent sound and it saddens me to see it used to denote negativity. When all other phonemes in the language are soft ones, I would think that the negative-marker would be a hard consonant, or an uvular fricative.

4. Should it be entirely necessary to state the sentence's truth tone at all times? In essence, if Láadan assumes a statement is truthful, shouldn't a truthful statement ("wa") be unmarked?

5. Is there any place to find a good grammar (or more examples of sentences) online?

Thank you for your patience! (< concerning 5., I wouldn' know how to translate that! would it be "thank i your patience for" or "thank i for your patence?" Where do prepositions sit?)

Translation Exercise 2

Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:47:46 GMT

Wil sha, all.

Following a suggestion by downtimer, here is a little tid-bit for our consideration. The original text is found at http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/translationex.html, the same place downtimer found the previous translation exercise. It is said to be a new year quote from King George VI of New Zealand from 1937.

Original English:

I said to the man who stood at the Gate of the Year, "Give me a light that I may tread safely into the unknown." And he replied, "Go out into the darkness, and put your hand into the Hand of God. That shall be better than light, and safer than a known way.

Láadan:

Bíide eril di le thib with Urahu Hathóolethamethuhasháadi, "Bóo ban ne ith ledi rilrili sháad le yomenal worahan wohothedihéwan," wa. I roban be, "Bó ranilesháad ne rahitheha, i dóham ne oma nethath Oma Lahilathaha nil. Bíi methal ith i hi; hesho hi wi. Meyom wohan woweth i hi; hesho hi."

English Re-translation:

I said to the person that stood at the Gate of the Year, "Give me light so that I might go safely in unknown places." And s/he answered, "Exit in darkness, and put your hand in the Hand of the Holy One. This is obviously better than light. This is obviously safer than a known way."

Amberwind

Translations

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:25:45 GMT

I've tried translating a text from the translation exercises at http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/translationex.html (these are great texts to try translating--maybe we shoudl all post LAadan versions of these!):

Thulid, ith hi bebAa?

BEe miwith HOyanim wa. Ben mewonEe wowith. Meduth ben ithehal nAaleya brOo methal ra ash wOo. Rashonelh i dOshebasheb ben beneyOo wa. Melothel ra ben worahIya worayometh wohIya wohoth benethoha ranil. MedOshebasheb ra humenan. Mehith wonEe wozhob medOshebasheb thedede hum rananehAa. BOhil wonEe wobadazhomidehOoha thoma mehim benenanehAa. BEe im mid ralOolo, izh ralOolohul i rahil ben wodo wohumeth wa. BO shAad ra miwith benethodi, hAawithid letha.

Thulid, miwith bebAa?

English:

Father, what are those lights?

That is the city of the Goyanim. They are a strange people. They light their cities at night, as if the stars weren't sufficient for their needs. They fight and kill each other, not realizing the greater danger beyond their small world. And they do not hunt each other with bows and arrows. No, they have strange devices that kill from far away without arrows. And take care near their strange iron horses they use to travel. They travel faster than any natural beast ought to, and ignore the strength of the bow and arrow. Best if you avoid their cities, my son.

Father, what's a city?

Notes:

1) I wasn't sure how to use the connection, "...not realizing...," so I just made them separate sentences.
2) I can't find a translation for "arrow." If I had to talk specifically about an arrow, I could say, "woshumAad wohum" ("flying knife") or just "shumehum" ("air knife"). However, since tribal people hunt with knives as well as arrows, I figured "hum" needed no modifier. Also, does "ranan" ("without," "not using") come before or after the noun it modifies? And what about "each other?" Is the reflexive used, like the Romance languages?
3) I wasn't sure how to use the relative clause. Did I use it correctly, or does it mean "their strange iron horses that use them to travel?"
4) Would a LAadan speaker use "thul" and "hAawith" whenever they're not talking specifically about the fact that the person is male? I'm not sure how the male marker works.

More places to find good translation exercises:

http://talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=TestSentences
http://www.lojban.org/tiki//tiki-index.php?page=Conlang+Test+Sentences&bl

I think it might help if we all did some of these translation challenges.

Wil sha!

Mon, 25 Feb 2008 03:09:35 GMT

Wil sha, everyone!

I'm new to Laadan--all I've done is go through the lessons ( http://internet.cybermesa.com/~amberwind/ )--but I find that the more I learn, the more I absolutely LOVE the language! I'm looking into buying the Laadan grammar/dictionary--does it have anything that isn't already online? (I'm just wondering because I saw a bidirectional dictionary at http://www.jackiepowers.com/Laadan/ ) I've tried to join the Yahoo! group, but it's been days now and I'm still waiting for approval... does anyone know why this is?

My linguistic background: My native language is English, and I've learned French and Japanese, as well as some Spanish back in high school. I have learned one conlang, and that's Toki Pona--I learned it last year.

My goal is to eventually become fluent in Laadan and add something to the few Laadan-related resources (the two whose links I posted here are all I've seen other than Wiki articles)--maybe something like B.J. Knight's Toki Pona page ( http://bknight0.myweb.uga.edu/toki/ ), with translations of all kinds of different things. I've tried a few translations on my own, but I don't really have anyone to check them with at this point...

I'd also be interested to know how the other members here use Laadan; I'm finding that the distinctions that exist in Laadan but not English help me think of the concepts in new ways--and that Laadan has words that express some thoughts I've had that I couldn't seem to find the words for in English--or French, or Japanese, or Spanish.

Anyway, I look forward to learning more of the Laadan language!

"LAadan 101: Introduction" class uploaded

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:34:23 GMT

Wil sha!

I'm pleased to announce that my class "LAadan 101: Introduction" is now available to students in the Grey School of Wizardry. This is part of our effort in the Magickal Practice Department to expand our foreign language program. Thank you all for your help in developing this class. If you're curious about the Grey School, please visit our website at: http://www.greyschool.com

Láadan names

Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:31:35 GMT

Does anyone have a list of given names adapted to Láadan?

Proposed Word for "Changeling" (2 versions)

Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:15:38 GMT

I'm working on a class, "Láadan 101: An Introduction," for the Grey School of Wizardry. I've come up with a few new words specifically dealing with magic, and I'm happy with the current form of most of those. There's one more that I'd like to get some further input regarding.

I started out with this:

haáwith– changeling; a fairy child left in place of a human child, or a magical child born into a nonmagical family. (This noun derives from “háawith” which means “child.”)

When I showed my proposed vocabulary list to Suzette Haden Elgin, she said:

I think it would be better to make your morphology more transparent for this word by including "sheb" -- the word for "change" -- in the form. "HAawithesheb," for example. Otherwise, because there are only the two possible arrangements of the tone, it looks as though you're imposing an arbitrary division on humankind -- just "magic" children and "non-magic" children. I don't think that's what you intended. "HAawithesheb" would be very clear.

The dilemma here is that Suzette has a point about the morphology; háawithesheb is clearer. But haáwith
is more concise, and to my aesthetic sense, more appealing.

What do you think? Which version is better, and why? Or would something altogether different be better still?

Negative First-Declension Nouns

Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:36:08 GMT

Wil sha, everybody.

We have first-declension nouns describing emotions--generally "happy" ones. In this model, there are five forms that discuss various reasons for feeling the emotion. I'll use "dena" (friendliness) as an example. "Dena" actually means "friendliness for good reason(s)". There are five forms in all:

"dena" (friendliness for good reason(s))
"dona" (friendliness for foolish reason(s))
"duna" (friendliness for bad reason(s))
"dina" (friendliness for no reason)
"dehena" (friendliness despite negative circumstances).

There is also a second-declension for other (generally more "negative") emotions. I'll use "bala" (anger) as an example. "Bala" actually means "anger for which I know the cause, for which I can blame someone/something, and about which I can do something" In this model the five forms are

"bala" (anger: cause, blame, remedy)
"bara" (anger: cause, blame, no remedy)
"bana" (anger: cause, no blame, remedy)
"bama" (anger: cause, no blame, no remedy)
"bina" (anger: no cause, no blame, remedy).

In our dictionary, there are some "opposites" of first declension nouns. These are formed by prefacing the noun with "ra-" (non-) but the resulting emotion remains in the first declension. As an example:

"radena" (unfriendliness, good reason)
"radona" (unfriendliness, foolish reason)
"raduna" (unfriendliness, bad reason)
"radina" (unfriendliness, no reason)
"radehena" (unfriendliness despite negative circumstances???)

This seems, to me, somewhat contrary-to-expectation. In a discussion of "unfriendliness" I would expect there to be some discussion not only of reason/cause but also of blame and remedy. So, what I'm wondering is whether there ought to be a mechanism whereby the opposite of a first-declension noun would be expressed in the second declension (and possibly vice-versa). If so, for "unfriendliness" we would have:

"radala" (unfriendliness: cause, blame, remedy)
"radara" (unfriendliness: cause, blame, no remedy)
"radana" (unfriendliness: cause, no blame, remedy)
"radama" (unfriendliness: cause, no blame, no remedy)
"radina" (unfriendliness: no cause, no blame, remedy)

Or ought we to have both sets, depending on what information we're trying to convey? If so, I have two questions.
1. What is actually meant by "radehena"?
2. How do we distinguish between "radina" (unfriendliness, no reason) and "radina" (unfriendliness: no cause, no blame, remedy)?

Amberwind

Updated Dictionaries Today

Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:06:15 GMT

I just uploaded new Láadan dictionaries to the web. Láadan to English is here. And English to Láadan is here.

A word of warning, as always, these dictionaries are works in progress, and all errors are my fault. Don't complain to Suzette about errors you find in them, complain to me so I can fix them.

Wil sha,
Jackie

Láadan Audio Tape?

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:08:27 GMT

Greetings Everyone;

I am yet so young in this language, that I can't even offer a decent greeting, at this point. It's pretty hard to learn a language in relative isolation (there are 2 of us learning this together). Anyway, does anyone know of where I could obtain a copy of the audio tape that was a learning companion to the Laadan book? This came out in the 1980s if I'm not mistaken. If anyone even has the tape, I'd be happy to send you a blank if you could make me a copy.

Hopeing to hear from someone soon!
Thank you,

Donella

Báa radóonehil bediloth wa?

Wed, 01 Nov 2006 06:36:09 GMT

I've just started browsing Láadan Made Easier, and I'm mildly confused by what looks to me (novice that I am) like a possible typo. Or maybe it's a rule I haven't learned yet.

Lesson Two includes this example:

1c. Báa melama with? (Are the women gentle?)

I expected melema; if I heard Báa melama with? after learning more Láadan, I'd probably think I was being asked whether the women were patients (me+lam+á). (Or maybe this means "health nuts", though without the pejorative connotation.)

Báa la raláadá wa?

Online Láadan Dictionaries

Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:13 GMT

It's very much a work in progress, but it's temporarily at: http://www.jackiepowers.com/Laadan/ until we get a Láadan home page up. The link that Suzette posted for FEM-SF a couple messages down has links to it, and will be the place to check when the dictionary moves.

I scanned in the grammar book, and all Suzette's web pages, then verified spellings on a ton of typos and inconsistencies with Suzette, so the online version is more accurate than the book. The 'x' in the 'Verify' field means this really-truly is the right Láadan spelling, no matter what the book says.

I'm adding new stuff all the time, and I just changed the database format to make the English to Láadan more useful (new version isn't up on web because I'm still testing, but should be up within the week). Then protohacker gave me her list of 1000 new words, and I got pointed at the Yahoo Láadan group's list, so I have lots of new words to keep me busy. Obviously, the part-of-speech column is in-progress, and in some places flat-wrong, that's totally my fault, and I'm figuring it out slowly. :-)

Current process for adding words to the dictionary is:
1) Send words to me: jpowers(at)jackiepowers(dot)com (see layout of dictionary for info I want with words)
2) I give once-over for duplication, common sense and obvious stuff
3) When I have a bunch for her to look at, I send to Suzette
4) She gives once-over for language rule consistency and stuff that isn't obvious to me
5) Whatever discussions are had
6) All (submitter, Suzette, whoever else involved) give their blessing and let me know
7) I put in dictionary

Process for correcting stuff: email me.

I hope it helps!
Jackie

Update on ordering the Láadan book...

Thu, 22 Jun 2006 18:45:13 GMT

I need to do a quick update here on the process of ordering the Láadan Grammar & Dictionary: Second Edition from me. Everything else is the same, but the U.S. postage and handling has to be raised from $3.50 to $4.00; I'm sorry about that, but I don't see any way around it unless the U.S. Post Office radically alters its current practices. Foreign postage, as before, is whatever it actually costs to send the book to you.

=======
[In case you missed the earlier post: You can order the book from me at OCLS, PO Box 1137, Huntsville, AR 72740-1137; the price of the book is $10.00. We can take checks in U.S. funds, international postal money orders, or -- for orders in the U.S. -- Mastercard or Visa. The book is shipped with an information packet. If you want it autographed, let me know; I'll be glad to do that. The money for the books goes to SF3, the nonprofit group that published it originally and that puts on WisCon every year, not to me.]

New LAadan page....

Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:17:26 GMT

There's a new LAadan page now at the FEM-SF wiki..... at http://wiki.feministsf.net/index.php?title=L%C3%A1adan_Working_Group .

Greetings and Partings

Tue, 23 May 2006 04:36:14 GMT

Has anybody dug into the book enough to find the greetings and partings? Yeah, 'Wil sha' is there, but in the readings and stuff are there more? Or has anybody come up with new ones that aren't in the book?

I'm looking for the equivalent of "Hi! How are you?" A greeting you'd give when you met somebody on the street. And, in general, I figure there potentially are several such greetings:
- Informal for close friends
- Informal for strangers
- Formal
- Honored formal

Any thoughts?
Jackie

About the book....

Wed, 17 May 2006 17:57:43 GMT

I'm sorry I haven't been checking this community more regularly and have let this question float around unanswered for so long.

The LAadan Grammar & Dictionary: Second Edition isn't out of print, although the stock is beginning to get a bit low (and SF3 doesn't plan a second printing). I've been handling most of the sales of new copies, because SF3 (as mentioned in another comment) is understaffed for that; used copies are available through the online used book sites.

Copies ordered from me (which I'm glad to autograph if that's requested) come with an information packet -- various miscellaneous materials -- and are $10.00 plus $3.50 shipping and handling; if more than one copy is ordered, it's $1.00 more postage per additional copy. The address for orders is PO Box 1137, Huntsville, AR 72740-1137, and I'm reasonably prompt.

The money from sales -- not the postage, but the $10.00 per copy -- has always been sent on to SF3, which can use it for WisCon or, if they prefer, for their other work.

Suzette

Feelings: Worry & Guilt

Sun, 14 May 2006 19:43:47 GMT

I've been considering feeling words in Láadan and thinking about the premise of the language, and other esoteric things, and in the process noticed that neither 'worry' nor 'guilt' have been defined so far. And it got me wondering...

In English 'worry' and 'guilt' are just two words.

But over the years, I've come to understand that 'worry' is a negative version of 'planning' (future thinking taken to the extreme with no action) and 'guilt' in a negative version of 'remembering' (past thinking taken to the extreme with no action).

What if, instead of two seperate words for worry and guilt, we made them as variations of planning and remembering:

dom => remember (existing word)
'domelh' or 'lhedom' => guilt (new word)

rom => plan (new word, pulled out of blue, no other definitions for word)
'romelh' or 'lherom' => worry (new word)

Thoughts?
Jackie

Intuition Evidence Morpheme

Sun, 07 May 2006 22:09:15 GMT

Okay... consensus seems positive, next question:

What is the best word for the new morpheme?

In the previous post I suggested "wée", but my other thought was "wu".

Existing Láadan definitions:
wée (baby's cry)
wu (such a..., what a...)

So both options would be easily differentiable from existing words.

"wée" as intuition evidence morpheme lines up nicely with "we" which is the dream evidence morpheme, and I like how it looks on the page. But I like the sound of "wu" better.

Thoughts?

Is anybody here? & Poll

Sat, 06 May 2006 03:36:40 GMT

I see there haven't been any posts here in a long time, but maybe some of you are still watching.

I have a question for you. Suzette and I have been talking, and I want to take a quick poll:

Should Láadan contain an Evidence Morpheme for woman's intuition?

Current Evidence Morphemes are:
wa = known to X because perceived by X (externally or internally)
we = perceived by X in a dream
wáa = assumed true by X because X trusts source
wi = known to X because self-evident
waá = assumed false by X because X distrusts source
wo = imagined or invented by X, hypothetical
wóo = X states a total lack of knowledge as to the validity of the matter

My proposal is:
wée = perceived by X through intuition, gut feeling or intsinct

And Suzette and I are considering what implications this would have on the language.

Thoughts?
Jackie

Wil sha!

Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:50:23 GMT

Wil sha!

Thenanal redeb le olowod ninethath wa. Nabedi le Láadaneth wa. Aya daneth wa.

Phew. I'm sure the above sentences are incredibly crude and clumsy. As I said, though, I've just started learning Láadan, and I still have a long way to go.

I do have a question about conjunctions, though. Let me give you an example, because it'll make things clearer than me talking grammar.

It's clear enough how you express causation when the reason can be expressed in one word.

thinawáad ada with wa -- the woman laughs for joy (for no reason).

However, what happens when it's a seperate sentence? For example, the woman laughs because the child told her a joke.

Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:38:05 GMT

Hello everybody!

Finally, I've found SOMETHING.

I've been searching for information on Laadan... Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack.
I can't wait to learn this language but I'm having a lot of trouble finding the materials... I found online resources but the book seems to have gone out of print. I am college-bound, so money is sort of an issue. I've e-mailed Dr. Elgin, and also a fluent speaker who has created one of her websites, but if anyone has any information I could use, I would very much like to hear it.

So glad to have found you all... Looking forward to communicating with you in the future!

Emily

Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:25:55 GMT

Okay, I've joined, left and joined this community many times now due to lack of anything. But hey, I'm a member, I can make things happen.
So. I've looked over the grammar, looked at the examples. Now I want to find a LaAdan community. Is there one?
I've yet to learn enough about this language to fully appreciate it, but I love many of the concepts, though I don't beleive it is as "subversive" as it is made out to be.So I'll give this Language a shot, just because I want to find a LaAdam community, and when I do, I want to know what the people are saying.

Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:16:34 GMT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%E1adan

Needs a bit of work. If anyone is interested in expanding it...

HELOOO

Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:03:54 GMT

WEll, I went over to the webpage, read the backround information on this language ( which I have not learned yet, by the way ) and I came back with questions:
1. How are our natural languages biased against women ?
2. How does Laadan "swing the other way" ?
3. Does Laadan bias against men?