The Láadan Language Community

When I write books I do many, many drafts -- and nothing is set in stone until the manuscript has been redone so many times that I have no choice but to call one of those drafts "final." And thank heavens for that, because it provides me with the only sensible solution to the mess I've created with the first ten Láadan lessons on the new website.

Instead of revising the phonology of the language, there is a simple solution: Change the names of the two characters in the lessons who are now named "Mary" and "Terry." Change their names to good solid Láadan names that don't require revisions in the phonology. And that is what I am going to do.

However.... I am not going to do this in haste, because I don't want to have to do it yet another time. I'm going to think about it carefully, and I'm going to do everything possible to be certain that there are no unintended consequences of my name-choices this time. Once I'm reasonably sure of that, I'll ask Jackie to do all the hard work and fix this for me.

Recommended: The new Láadan website at http://www.LaadanLanguage.org . Your feedback would be welcome, especially for the ten Láadan For Beginners lessons.

Wil sha, all.

I recently changed ISP, and have moved my Láadan primer to the web space provided by my new ISP. The lessons can be found at http://amjbarnhart.home.comcast.net.

The lessons may persist in the old location, but I no longer have access to that web space to maintain them.

I apologize for any inconvenience this change may cause.

Amberwind

Wil sha, all.

I recently came across this classic fable.




I enjoyed translating it; perhaps you will too. Let's all post translations, then we can compare and synthesize. I'll post my first draft in a few days.

Amberwind

Freelang offers dictionary making software. I have used this program for three of my own conlangs, and it is simple to use and construct. I wondered if it would help the Láadan community if I made a Freelang Láadan dictionary, including all the ratified words so far? Once you download the program and wordlist, it is easy to update it with new words, perfect for when new Láadan words get added to the lexicon. I find this program easier to use than using the search function on online list dictionaries. I also wouldn't mind making this for the community! What do you all vote?
If you vote yes, I'll start work on it, and upload the wordlist file onto my webserver for free download once I've finished it.

It is finally time I be of use to this community. I'm a conscript junkie, and whether this sticks or not matters not. I just thought that LAadan would be well served by having a lovely cursive script with which to write it. I came up with the following:
( large pictures behind cut )

So, I was looking at the Lojban page for ideas on what we can do, because the Lojban people are so much further ahead as a conlang community than we Láadanists are. They have this project going on, called the Chrestomathy project:

The goal is to produce a collection of translated and original writings designed to show a wide sampling of a language. We need translations of texts generally a bit longer than the typical effort (1000-10000 words), and as wide a variety of texts and styles, from as many different source languages as possible. Original works in Lojban that exercise a variety of aspects of the language are even more important. 

They have an amazing number of other projects: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Official+LLG+Projects&bl
Here are some of their texts: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Texts+In+Lojban&bl

I think we should do this as well. If someone wants to propose a text we can all translate as a group, this is the thread in which to do so.

I have collected every Láadan text I could find (which doesn't amount to a whole lot) and have started work on translating a few texts myself. I realize that someone has bought the laadanlanguage.org domain name, but I also know that this person has been too busy to do anything with it.

So, here is my proposal: I would like to create a Láadan website. It would not be an official site like laadanlanguage.org is intended to be, but rather, more of a fan page, like one that exists for Toki Pona: http://bknight0.myweb.uga.edu/toki/ I would put up the texts I've collected, my translations, some pictures I have altered so that the text is in Láadan, and some interesting info that is relevant to Láadan--maybe even my own set of lessons.

Before I can do this, I will need three things:

1. I will need to finish my translations and write up HTML versions. I can do this myself.
   
2. I will need this group's approval for the site; after all, a website is nothing without people to see it.
   
3. I will need to find a good place to host my site. I'm a bit strapped for cash, so I will need one of those free web hosting services. Can anyone recommend a good service for hosting a Láadan fan page like what I'm proposing?  Should I use something like GeoCities or Tripod for this purpose, or should I use something classier?  If the latter is the case, what should I use?  Should we perhaps use a Wiki like the Lojban people are using so we can do it as a community?

If there is something anyone here would like to see on the site, or if anyone has any suggestions for how to go about making the site, or if anyone wants to be part of this proposed project, or if you have anything at all to say, please feel free to voice your thoughts.

I'd like to propose some affixes:

dólho- : to force to, as in dólhorado
é- : a gap in something (from édáan, lexical gap).
ha- : to use as, from habelid, to live in (belid = house, so habelid would be "to use as a house")
ho- : a prefix for one generation back, as in hothul, hoberidan
hóo- : the reverse of ho-, as in hóowith
la- : relating to motherhood, as in lawida, lalal from wida and lal.
mé- : a large group of (from méwith, crowd; this would settle the debate about the prefix me- in the previous thread)
mi- : a permanent place where many live (from miwith, city)
nede- : a unit of (from nedeloth, fact; a fact is a unit of information, which is loth)
no- : the end of something (for nouns, by analogy to nodal and nonede)--and, yes, I would propose similar uses for na-, ná-, and nó-.
nu- : -less (from nuthul, orphan)

-an: to taste of (meénan, máanan)
-e : a tool for a specific purpose (from thode, short for dalethodewan--perhaps we could standardize this contraction?)

Examples of words we could coin from this:

nedelali: raindrop
mibo: mountain range
laham: a mother's love for her child (different from sham in that it presupposes liking)
nohoth: the end of a place, perhaps a city limit or state line
nuháawith: childless person
méthili: a school of fish
hamazh: to drive (i.e. use as a car)

Also, why don't we have óo for grief and ela for celebration (from óosholan and elasholan)?

Words I'd like to propose from a translation I worked on with Amberwind:

mehéezha: dinosaur
wíirawíi: ghost or other undead creature (by analogy to urahu)
domath: fortress
hudomath: castle
thamud: circle of stones
iliyil: to sink (intransitive), be sunken
badazhelosh: coin
udemarenil: cave

I also think it's a good idea to lay some solid rules for coining words so that we don't have to propose a word before anyone knows what it means.

Wil sha, all.

From the same source as the last few exercises, here's Frank Herbert's "Litany Against Fear" from the Dune series (this is the original from the first Dune book; there were several variant versions through the series). 

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain." 

What say we each try a translation and then discuss & reconcile them? I'll post mine in a few days.

Amberwind

Wil sha, community!
I hope you will all bear with me, as I am new to this community and relatively new to the language. The concept of a female-conceived and continued language interests me. I will admit up front that not only an I male, but I have not read the books from whence Láadan comes. Perhaps this explains my ignorance, but I have read through as much material as I could on a cursopry first look. Upon discovering Láadan, I found problems with a few of its core concepts (for example the anti-lying measures), but overall, time has sweetened the conlang and I actually feel it's worthwhile to look into it more. I should probably spend my time learning Esperanto, Lojban, ThlIngan Hol, Sindarin, or even Verdurian, but Láadan is where I have found myself, if nothing else due to being interested and conflicted about it to a very unique point. (Esperanto, Lojban and thlIngan Hol are too aggravating in basic principles to hold my interest.)
The VSO order of Láadan is unique and charming, the system of phonemes uniquely soft, and the general feminine perspective very... for lack of a better word, mind altering. However, a few questions/quips:

1. Why use dipthongs? Since Láadan leaves out so many useable letters of the latin alphabet, one would think that suitable letters for SH, ZH, TH, and LH would exist. I vote for either S or X for SH, either Z or J for ZH, T for TH, and J or K for LH. Forgive me for saying this, but the alphabet A B D E H I J L M N O R S T U W Z seems more beautiful to me than one employing dipthongs.

2. Why use accents to point out heightened tone? It seems (from what I've observed) perfectly possible to guess the heightened tones of vowels by their placement. This could be handled by grammatical rules that don't need to be reinforced in orthography, or a special high-tone marker letter. In this ASCII world, accents are a hassle.

3. The lateral fricative is an excellent sound and it saddens me to see it used to denote negativity. When all other phonemes in the language are soft ones, I would think that the negative-marker would be a hard consonant, or an uvular fricative.

4. Should it be entirely necessary to state the sentence's truth tone at all times? In essence, if Láadan assumes a statement is truthful, shouldn't a truthful statement ("wa") be unmarked?

5. Is there any place to find a good grammar (or more examples of sentences) online?

Thank you for your patience! (< concerning 5., I wouldn' know how to translate that! would it be "thank i your patience for" or "thank i for your patence?" Where do prepositions sit?)

Wil sha, all.

Following a suggestion by downtimer, here is a little tid-bit for our consideration. The original text is found at http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/translationex.html, the same place downtimer found the previous translation exercise. It is said to be a new year quote from King George VI of New Zealand from 1937.

Original English:

I said to the man who stood at the Gate of the Year, "Give me a light that I may tread safely into the unknown."  And he replied, "Go out into the darkness, and put your hand into the Hand of God.  That shall be better than light, and safer than a known way.

Láadan:

Bíide eril di le thib with Urahu Hathóolethamethuhasháadi, "Bóo ban ne ith ledi rilrili sháad le yomenal worahan wohothedihéwan," wa. I roban be, "Bó ranilesháad ne rahitheha, i dóham ne oma nethath Oma Lahilathaha nil. Bíi methal ith i hi; hesho hi wi. Meyom wohan woweth i hi; hesho hi."

English Re-translation:

I said to the person that stood at the Gate of the Year, "Give me light so that I might go safely in unknown places." And s/he answered, "Exit in darkness, and put your hand in the Hand of the Holy One. This is obviously better than light. This is obviously safer than a known way."

Amberwind

I've tried translating a text from the translation exercises at http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/translationex.html (these are great texts to try translating--maybe we shoudl all post LAadan versions of these!):

Thulid, ith hi bebAa?

 

BEe miwith HOyanim wa.  Ben mewonEe wowith.  Meduth ben ithehal nAaleya brOo methal ra ash wOo.  Rashonelh i dOshebasheb ben beneyOo wa.  Melothel ra ben worahIya worayometh wohIya wohoth benethoha ranil.  MedOshebasheb ra humenan.  Mehith wonEe wozhob medOshebasheb thedede hum rananehAa.  BOhil wonEe wobadazhomidehOoha thoma mehim benenanehAa.  BEe im mid ralOolo, izh ralOolohul i rahil ben wodo wohumeth wa.  BO shAad ra miwith benethodi, hAawithid letha.

 

Thulid, miwith bebAa?

English:

Father, what are those lights?

 

That is the city of the Goyanim. They are a strange people. They light their cities at night, as if the stars weren't sufficient for their needs. They fight and kill each other, not realizing the greater danger beyond their small world. And they do not hunt each other with bows and arrows. No, they have strange devices that kill from far away without arrows. And take care near their strange iron horses they use to travel. They travel faster than any natural beast ought to, and ignore the strength of the bow and arrow. Best if you avoid their cities, my son.

 

Father, what's a city?

 

Notes:

1) I wasn't sure how to use the connection, "...not realizing...," so I just made them separate sentences.
2) I can't find a translation for "arrow."  If I had to talk specifically about an arrow, I could say, "woshumAad wohum" ("flying knife") or just "shumehum" ("air knife").  However, since tribal people hunt with knives as well as arrows, I figured "hum" needed no modifier.  Also, does "ranan" ("without," "not using") come before or after the noun it modifies? And what about "each other?"  Is the reflexive used, like the Romance languages?
3) I wasn't sure how to use the relative clause.  Did I use it correctly, or does it mean "their strange iron horses that use them to travel?"
4) Would a LAadan speaker use "thul" and "hAawith" whenever they're not talking specifically about the fact that the person is male?  I'm not sure how the male marker works.

More places to find good translation exercises:

http://talideon.com/concultures/wiki/?doc=TestSentences
http://www.lojban.org/tiki//tiki-index.php?page=Conlang+Test+Sentences&bl

I think it might help if we all did some of these translation challenges.

Wil sha, everyone!

I'm new to Laadan--all I've done is go through the lessons ( http://internet.cybermesa.com/~amberwind/ )--but I find that the more I learn, the more I absolutely LOVE the language!  I'm looking into buying the Laadan grammar/dictionary--does it have anything that isn't already online?  (I'm just wondering because I saw a bidirectional dictionary at http://www.jackiepowers.com/Laadan/ )  I've tried to join the Yahoo! group, but it's been days now and I'm still waiting for approval... does anyone know why this is?

My linguistic background: My native language is English, and I've learned French and Japanese, as well as some Spanish back in high school.  I have learned one conlang, and that's Toki Pona--I learned it last year.

My goal is to eventually become fluent in Laadan and add something to the few Laadan-related resources (the two whose links I posted here are all I've seen other than Wiki articles)--maybe something like B.J. Knight's Toki Pona page ( http://bknight0.myweb.uga.edu/toki/ ), with translations of all kinds of different things.  I've tried a few translations on my own, but I don't really have anyone to check them with at this point...

I'd also be interested to know how the other members here use Laadan; I'm finding that the distinctions that exist in Laadan but not English help me think of the concepts in new ways--and that Laadan has words that express some thoughts I've had that I couldn't seem to find the words for in English--or French, or Japanese, or Spanish.

Anyway, I look forward to learning more of the Laadan language!

Wil sha!

I'm pleased to announce that my class "LAadan 101: Introduction" is now available to students in the Grey School of Wizardry.  This is part of our effort in the Magickal Practice Department to expand our foreign language program.  Thank you all for your help in developing this class.  If you're curious about the Grey School, please visit our website at:  http://www.greyschool.com

Does anyone have a list of given names adapted to Láadan? 

I'm working on a class, "Láadan 101: An Introduction," for the Grey School of Wizardry.  I've come up with a few new words specifically dealing with magic, and I'm happy with the current form of most of those.  There's one more that I'd like to get some further input regarding.

I started out with this:

haáwith– changeling; a fairy child left in place of a human child, or a magical child born into a nonmagical family. (This noun derives from “háawith”  which means “child.”) 

When I showed my proposed vocabulary list to Suzette Haden Elgin, she said:

I think it would be better to make your morphology more transparent for this word by including "sheb" -- the word for "change" -- in the form. "HAawithesheb," for example. Otherwise, because there are only the two possible arrangements of the tone, it looks as though you're imposing an arbitrary division on humankind -- just "magic" children and "non-magic" children. I don't think that's what you intended. "HAawithesheb" would be very clear.

The dilemma here is that Suzette has a point about the morphology; háawithesheb is clearer.  But haáwith
is more concise, and to my aesthetic sense, more appealing.

What do you think?  Which version is better, and why?  Or would something altogether different be better still?

Wil sha, everybody.

We have first-declension nouns describing emotions--generally "happy" ones. In this model, there are five forms that discuss various reasons for feeling the emotion. I'll use "dena" (friendliness) as an example. "Dena" actually means "friendliness for good reason(s)". There are five forms in all:

"dena" (friendliness for good reason(s))
"dona" (friendliness for foolish reason(s))
"duna" (friendliness for bad reason(s))
"dina" (friendliness for no reason)
"dehena" (friendliness despite negative circumstances).

There is also a second-declension for other (generally more "negative") emotions. I'll use "bala" (anger) as an example. "Bala" actually means "anger for which I know the cause, for which I can blame someone/something, and about which I can do something" In this model the five forms are

"bala" (anger: cause, blame, remedy)
"bara" (anger: cause, blame, no remedy)
"bana" (anger: cause, no blame, remedy)
"bama" (anger: cause, no blame, no remedy)
"bina" (anger: no cause, no blame, remedy).

In our dictionary, there are some "opposites" of first declension nouns. These are formed by prefacing the noun with "ra-" (non-) but the resulting emotion remains in the first declension. As an example:

"radena" (unfriendliness, good reason)
"radona" (unfriendliness, foolish reason)
"raduna" (unfriendliness, bad reason)
"radina" (unfriendliness, no reason)
"radehena" (unfriendliness despite negative circumstances???)

This seems, to me, somewhat contrary-to-expectation. In a discussion of "unfriendliness" I would expect there to be some discussion not only of reason/cause but also of blame and remedy. So, what I'm wondering is whether there ought to be a mechanism whereby the opposite of a first-declension noun would be expressed in the second declension (and possibly vice-versa). If so, for "unfriendliness" we would have:

"radala" (unfriendliness: cause, blame, remedy)
"radara" (unfriendliness: cause, blame, no remedy)
"radana" (unfriendliness: cause, no blame, remedy)
"radama" (unfriendliness: cause, no blame, no remedy)
"radina" (unfriendliness: no cause, no blame, remedy)

Or ought we to have both sets, depending on what information we're trying to convey? If so, I have two questions.
1. What is actually meant by "radehena"?
2. How do we distinguish between "radina" (unfriendliness, no reason) and "radina" (unfriendliness: no cause, no blame, remedy)?

Amberwind

I just uploaded new Láadan dictionaries to the web. Láadan to English is here.  And English to  Láadan is here.

A word of warning, as always, these dictionaries are works in progress, and all errors are my fault.  Don't complain to Suzette about errors you find in them, complain to me so I can fix them.

Wil sha,
Jackie

Greetings Everyone;

I am yet so young in this language, that I can't even offer a decent greeting, at this point. It's pretty hard to learn a language in relative isolation (there are 2 of us learning this together). Anyway, does anyone know of where I could obtain a copy of the audio tape that was a learning companion to the Laadan book? This came out in the 1980s if I'm not mistaken. If anyone even has the tape, I'd be happy to send you a blank if you could make me a copy.

Hopeing to hear from someone soon!
Thank you,

Donella