Kristi ([info]kurki15) wrote in [info]knitting,
@ 2006-01-12 16:34:00
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Sew Fast/Sew Easy
It seems they are continuing their rampage against community knitting groups using the name of Stitch 'n Bitch...

I recently got an e-mail from yahoogroups telling me I must rename the group within 48 or the group will be removed because of trademark infringement. I was hoping to get ahold of other owners of yahoogroups using Stitch 'n Bitch in their name and/or description to see if putting disclaimers about it being patterned after the book kept them in the clear etc. However, yahoogroups won't pass along my e-mails to the owner addresses.

Does anyone out there know if other groups have been bullied into changing their names? Is "snb" in the name accectable?

You can see the e-mail on my knitting blog at http://knitting.designedlykristi.com

If people are renaming their groups are they using a common name so the groups can still be easily found??

This is soooo frustrating!

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-12 11:39 pm UTC (link)
yup!
i got it too

*shakes fist at sky*

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-12 11:40 pm UTC (link)
also, i renamed our group, as stitching and bitching, or something.
i've been in a frenzy for the past 20 minutes. lol.

and i thought i made a post to here about it, and now i wonder to what in the hell place i did make it in! LOL!

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[info]kurki15
2006-01-12 11:55 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I changed the name to knittingftcollins and then mentioned and linked to both Stoller books as being the inspiration. I hope that a search will still turn up our group.

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-12 11:58 pm UTC (link)
i did write yahoo and mentiion that sew easy "owns" "stitch n bitch CAFE" and the word cafe does not appear anyplace in our url.

don't know if it is going to do any good.

i also emailed deb, just to see what was going on with every one else; also wondering if she got served with the C&D order.

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[info]kurki15
2006-01-13 12:01 am UTC (link)
Yes, I made sure to e-mail Deb was well.

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[info]elabeth
2006-01-13 03:51 am UTC (link)
I did the same things you did. Yahoo basicly told me they are protecting their own asses and they don't care about whether the claim is valid or not.
Debbie is telling everyone to change it to SNB then the place name so I'm doing that for now. I also wrote to SFSE asking if putting up a disclaimer and linking to their site to help anyone who might be confused to find them. They were not receptive to that idea at all. feh. Bastards.

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-13 03:56 am UTC (link)
yahoo didn't even get back to me.

i've heard that deb is making the rounds, being V for vermont, we should be getting that email, um, next week, lol.

SNB sounds good.
i'll do that in the am, when i am a bit fresh.

it is taking every bit of restraint i have not to be calling sew evil on the ole telephone.

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[info]elabeth
2006-01-13 04:10 am UTC (link)
I called their number and nobody answered. I don't have that kind of restraint, so I'll probably call the bastards again in the morning to vent my spleen.

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[info]hexennacht
2006-01-13 12:46 pm UTC (link)
Let us know how it goes.

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-13 02:26 pm UTC (link)
convient, that the email came after 5pm, when most offices are closed.
sew evil!

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[info]lunassa
2006-01-13 03:05 am UTC (link)
I got one too! I'm so enraged it isn't even funny, these folks need to get a life. It's not like "Threepete" or something that didn't even exist in the english language before that coach or whomever thought it up.

So I should email Debbie at her site? Should I change my group's name for now? Mine says stitchnbitch, no cafe or anything like that. F@#$!@ losers. I want to call them and give them a piece of my mind, but I don't want to get arrested for harassment or anything.

*fuming*

I'm not even fit to speak at the moment I'm so ticked off.

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[info]ohsochewy
2006-01-12 11:59 pm UTC (link)
You made a post, but since I had to approve it two seconds after I approved [info]kurki15's post, I figured I'd consolidate your grumpies into one place. Hope you don't mind :)

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-13 12:00 am UTC (link)
lol! no, i don't mind! i just thought i was going totally insane there for a second! lol.

thanks for keepin things so excellent 'round these parts!

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[info]tvini
2006-01-12 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Jeez, they're still doing that? I thought for sure they knocked it off after the furor last time. Before the flare-up this Spring, I had been thinking of buying their book, wanting to learn more about sewing. Really thinking, like "I'm in Borders and this is in my hand, but I'll just go check reviews once before I plunk down my money." Normally I don't put an incredible amount of stock on buyer/seller problems on the internet, because it's so difficult to get a balanced picture. This, however, seemed clear enough that I opted not to buy the book. I just took a class at a local fabric/yarn store instead.

I still don't get it. It's not like the phrase stitch 'n' bitch is brand spankin' new and they thought it up. It just seems like such a lot of ill-will to generate for such a small return. Oh well.

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-12 11:59 pm UTC (link)
hey!! i thought of you today!!
i packed up a box for you this afternoon!
with a special treat for yourownself!

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[info]tvini
2006-01-13 12:09 am UTC (link)
Awwww! Thanks!

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[info]madamebovary
2006-01-19 06:16 am UTC (link)
bad publicity = good publicity?

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[info]semiauto
2006-01-13 12:01 am UTC (link)
UGH. i hope they go out of business.

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[info]lunassa
2006-01-13 03:06 am UTC (link)
You and me both.

My their crotches be infested with the fleas of a thousand camels and their arms be too short to scratch. That's the worst curse I know of, heard it in an email joke and it stuck forever.

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[info]chazari
2006-01-13 02:43 pm UTC (link)
May they fall backwards onto a rake and only have a hot stove to grab onto for support.

That is my personal favorite curse.

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[info]jewforjesus
2006-01-13 12:14 am UTC (link)
so what are they? a group of people that decided to go out and copyright the name so they could make money of it? did they sue the author of the book stitch and bitch, or did they copyright after she used the name so they could sue?

this is ridiculous. sounds like the two old women who copyrighted the happy birthday song.

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[info]madeyou_look
2006-01-13 12:52 am UTC (link)
Those two old women *wrote* the happy birthday song; it was written to be used in classrooms as "Good morning to you" and eventually the lyrics were altered. See http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp for more details.

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[info]jewforjesus
2006-01-13 01:29 am UTC (link)
then... technically shouldn't someone try conacting debbie in accordance to this? I have a feeling she wouldn't be bothered by the use of the name, since she talks about snb groups in her book.
Also, why doesn't someone point out these technicalities to yahoo and evidence of what names they've trademarked?

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[info]elabeth
2006-01-13 03:56 am UTC (link)
Several of us have contacted her. She's spoken with her lawyers and I assume there will be some sort of fighting it out eventually. Meantime she has suggested we all change our group names to SNB and the place name or move them somewhere other than Yahoo since Yahoo won't do diddly.

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[info]phonemonkey
2006-01-13 12:31 pm UTC (link)
Copyrights have a set expiration date before they become public domain, trademarks have to be renewed and actively kept in use which means protecting them from being used by other people.

Well, they used to. However, nothing published in the US (or in the EU as they tend to follow the US in these matters) will ever lapse into the public domain ever again, not while Disney remain able to lobby Congress for ever-extended copyright periods to protect the first Mickey Mouse cartoon. Meanwhile, millions of books (and knitting patterns) that aren't profitable enough to publish but which thousands of people could enjoy if they were freely available, are trapped in this legal limbo.

It's disgusting and immoral, and they are stealing the intellectual birthright of the world.

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[info]meowkat
2006-01-13 02:18 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I know. Technically they all still have an expiration date, but anytime it gets close to expiring they lobby Congress to extend the dates (for everything) some more. It's up to 95 years after an author's death, or 120 years from the date the work was created if a work for hire. I seem to recall that outside the US, the original authors have a bit more control over their copyright (even if it's a work for hire) but yeah, the dates are pretty much the same.

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3rd time's the charm
[info]the_anticraft
2006-01-14 04:58 pm UTC (link)
Ahahaha. The problem wasn't with LJ, it was with the word doc used for drafting.
----
Actually, Debbie doesn't own the trademark yet. She applied for it and was denied because of SFSE's trademark on "Stitch & Bitch Café". She applied in November to have their registration cancelled because they haven't defended it and now a third parties (such as herself) have made a name with it. They of course answered that with denials all around, so now they are asserting their trademark all over.

What's funny about that is that SFSE "Denies knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations contained in paragraph 1, and therefore denies those allegations" of Deb's petition to cancel. What was in paragraph 1? Only one statement "Petitioner, Deborah Stoller, is the author of the popular books 'Stitch 'n Bitch: The Knitter's Handbook,' and 'Stitch 'n Bitch Nation,' both of which have been list on The New York Times bestseller list." Because SFSE's lawyers can't use a library? Because The NY Times keeps its bestsellers lists sooooo secret?

Also, in SFSE's trademark papers they describe their trademark as "providing on-line chat rooms for the transmission of messages among computer users concerning sewing via a global computer network," and "sewing instruction and manual distributed in connection therewith".

Petition to Cancel info: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?qs=76026522

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Re: 3rd time's the charm
[info]knit_tea
2006-01-14 05:09 pm UTC (link)
I think last time someone posted that the books had come up on their forum. So not only can that be logically argued, it could be proved that they are lying if the old post can be recovered/was saved.

I like that the chat rooms only deal with sewing, not knitting...

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[info]ne_today
2006-01-13 12:23 am UTC (link)
My group is snb-lex and we've managed to slip under the radar, so I guess snb is okay.

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[info]meowkat
2006-01-13 12:43 am UTC (link)
Grrrr. This is annoying and frustrating. [info]pippikneesocks thanks for taking care of the VT group, it did keep the group on my list pointing to the different URL.

I did a quick search on the US Patent and Trademark website, and aparently "Stitch & Bitch Cafe" is a registered trademark of Sew Fast/Sew Easy, Inc. and there are several "Stitch 'n Bitch" trademarks owned by Debbie Stoller. The page expires or I'd post a link to the whole list, but the website is here: http://www.uspto.gov/ and if you go the search under Trademarks, and type "stitch bitch" under the new user search, they'll all come up.

So, I guess the solution is everyone who has a yahoo group should make sure they use "Stitch 'N Bitch" everywhere on the group's web page instead of "Stitch & Bitch" and yeah, send responses to Yahoo and Sew Fast/Sew Easy, Inc. letting them know you've done so. Since Stitch 'N Bitch is a registered trademark, and Debbie does frequent the lists at times, there should be no problem.

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[info]pippikneesocks
2006-01-13 02:43 am UTC (link)
we were stitchnbitch!
so, there shouldn't have been an issue in the first place..
gurr!

such a very irritating thing.

*shakes fist at sky*

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[info]sarakate
2006-01-13 06:17 pm UTC (link)
Actually, Debbie *doesn't* have a registered trademark; if you look carefully when you do that search, you'll see that there are two columns, one for serial number (that's for the application) and one for the registered number, and the latter is blank for all of Debbie's "Stitch 'n Bitch" trademarks. The current status of it is that she's applied for a trademark, and the trademark has been rejected by the examiner on the grounds of confusion with the prior existing mark belonging to SFSE; she does have rights to appeal, which one can reasonably assume she intends to exercise.

There's some more extensive info on this at The Girl From Auntie's site; her current commentary is here, and then she links from there to prior posts where she discussed it previously.

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[info]meowkat
2006-01-13 10:00 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm... hadn't noticed that, thanks. I was going by just what you see on http://www.uspto.gov/ (it comes up under a search for live trademarks) and hadn't done any searching elsewhere. I really wish you could edit LJ comments.

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[info]pixiecrinkle
2006-01-13 09:58 pm UTC (link)
Ours was listed as "Stitch n' Bitch" rather than "Stitch & Bitch" because I wanted to be careful after their initial onslaught with the Chicago group last year. But I still got the email from Yahoo this morning. Deb Stoller says SNB is ok, but I'm not so sure, as that's what was in our URL too.

grrr...

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[info]clumsygyrl
2006-01-13 02:06 am UTC (link)
can you rename it "bitchin' n' stitchin'"? heh.

i'm not trying to be glib, but it'd be essentially the same and a 'haha' to the bullying.

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[info]myilow
2006-01-13 02:18 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I just got some emails about my SnB having to change its name too.. I mean, they were passed on by the list owner.

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[info]lunassa
2006-01-13 03:02 am UTC (link)
Sorry guys, I just deleted my pissed off post about the same thing. *sheepish*

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[info]raspberrypie
2006-01-13 03:07 am UTC (link)
i read on another knitting blog about them attacking a stitch n bitch because of their name, and the stich n bitch was very very angry and got their own lawyer, etc. i doubt you can afford that, but that sew fast group sounds rather psychotically insane--going after every single person to use that, etc. and sending them threatening letters.

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[info]trollbabe
2006-01-13 09:08 am UTC (link)
This is an email that I got via my Yahoo! local SNB group list, apparently from Debbie Stoller:

Dear Stitchers 'n Bitchers:

It has come to my attention that the moderators of a number of Stitch 'n
Bitch groups who host their mailing lists using Yahoo Groups' free mailing
list services have received notices from Yahoo advising them that they must
delete the wording STITCH N BITCH from their Yahoo!Group URL and any
references to STITCH N BITCH in the GROUP itself. This notice is a result of
a objection filed by Sew Fast Sew Easy Inc., a New York company, who is
claiming rights to this wording.

A number of you have been emailing me asking what to do. I have spoken about
this matter with my attorneys. First of all, please realize that you are not
being asked in this notice to change the name of your actual knitting group,
just the group designation you use on the Yahoo group and Yahoo URL, if you
want to keep using their free email services. Unfortunately, there is no
immediate recourse with Yahoo other than to make the change at this time.
They require this as soon as anybody makes any kind of claim--they do not
evaluate the merits of the claim. This being the case, one idea is to simply
change any references to STITCH n BITCH in your Yahoo Group name to some
alternative such as SNB (i.e, StitchnBitch-NYC would become SNB-NYC. Easier
to type, too!) Your group moderator can easily make this change via the
Yahoogroups control panel.

I know how much we value these lists as a way to communicate with our
groups, and I think we should all try to avoid the possible loss of our
group lists if Yahoo proceeds with a shut down. Also, I'd like you to remind
you that the group moderator can export the members list at any time (just
go to "members" then "export"), and save it somewhere special.

Finally, if you decide to change your Yahoo Groups name or move your list,
please be sure to have some one from your group let Brenda know so she can
change it on her www.stitchnbitch.org site.

Thanks!

Debbie Stoller

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[info]iolarah
2006-01-13 01:07 pm UTC (link)
I vaguely remember the last time this came up, and someone posted a brilliant quote from one of the boards, in which a woman said that it wasn't as though SFSE even came up with the phrase--in her grandmother's yearbook, dated 1938, there was a note about the Stitch & Bitch crew.

Good luck with it, to those caught in the fray!

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(=
[info]hexennacht
2006-01-13 04:01 pm UTC (link)
My grandmother was in a Stitch & Bitch club at Sarah Lawrence University in 1938 when she was there, so I don't think you all made up the phrase. If you took something of someone else's and capitalized on it, fine. But don't lie and say it was your idea to begin with. I even have the 1940 yearbook, the year she graduated, and there are pictures of 14 women and the phrase "stitchery and bitchery - the ladies of the stitch and bitch club, mcconley hall."

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Re: (=
[info]iolarah
2006-01-13 04:11 pm UTC (link)
That's the one! I love that quote. Reminds me of the continuity, and that I'm part of a tradition and a history :)

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[info]ne_today
2006-01-13 06:31 pm UTC (link)
I stand corrected. I got the copyright notification today and I'm an SNB. Ugh.

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I have nothing constructive to add to this conversation
[info]freshgroundfemm
2006-01-13 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Except to say that the Sew Fast So Easy people really suck. A bunch of people around the world calling their knitting groups "stitch n bitch" does not detract from their "stitch n bitch cafe"--a forum that only has 36 registered users!!! This is the most ridiculous thing EVER. It's akin to going after people for using the term "book club".

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[info]scheherazaad
2006-01-13 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Read my mind. I second what freshgroundfemm wrote. Sucks!! They deserve to loose their business and be left with nothing but their trademark, if that.

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[info]pixiecrinkle
2006-01-13 09:55 pm UTC (link)
I got one too, for the downtownColumbus group. I changed the name temporarily, and am getting contact info from my lawyerly friends to try to find an IP attorney.

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Re: 3rd time's the charm
[info]madamebovary
2006-01-19 06:27 am UTC (link)
following that link...it makes sense that they're harrasing us now because the pettition for cancellation was denied on Jan. 10th, 2006. Well...the timing does anyway...

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