irishgaming: Open question to Gamers

kshandr (

kshandr) wrote in

irishgaming,
@ 2006-09-05 10:59:00

Current music:

Buffy - The Musical - Life

Open question to Gamers
Dear everyone,

For a few years now, I've hosted a bank of RPG Scenarios written by Irish people. This began life as the IrishGaming.Com scenario bank, then went over to GameEire during my two-year leave of absence from gaming. When I relaunched IrishGaming.Com, I set up the scenario bank again to fill a gap - The GameEire scenario bank is rarely updated.

The IrishGaming.Com bank is currently broken (some maintenance I have been doing elsewhere has adversely affected it.) I intend replacing it with something a little more swishy (should take minimal effort and will happen hopefully before the end of the month) but I have a question: Is this service *used* by the community?

From logs, we see a certain quantity of scenarios downloaded each month. Typically these are downloaded following shameless self promotion by the writer. But we see little to no scenarios added to the bank. While a good solution would be to chase any and all scenario writers, there is only so much an individual can do.

Does anyone have any comments or suggestions?

(Post a new comment)

	bastun_ie 2006-09-05 10:04 am UTC (link)
	If the scenarios are being d/loaded, then there's a demand for the scenario bank. A problem for new uploads might be lack of awareness of the bank? Maybe a mail from con RPG co-ordinators to all their writers, say a week after a con, asking if the writer's scenario can be uploaded? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-05 10:21 am UTC (link)
	Sounds good to me. Gaelcon's probably easy to hit up for this sort of thing. Any ideas as to how to approach the regional cons, who have a high committee turnover? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2006-09-05 10:20 am UTC (link)
	I'll send you any unuploaded stuff of mine when I'm back in Ireland, and harass people too. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-05 10:21 am UTC (link)
	Is that mytholder? I know he's out of Ireland... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2006-09-05 10:23 am UTC (link)
	No prizes for guessing who this is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

tdo_ie
2006-09-05 11:43 am UTC (link)

I don't wish to appear negative or such... but I wonder if the sceanrio bank is at all useful. As you say, it was dead for two years and nobody seemed to care too much until your brought it back up. It's been down now for how long? Did you get any emails/IMs to inform you? I think it was you that said, people vote with their feet.

I wouldn't put much truck on "a certain quantity of scenarios downloaded each month" unless you spend a good time analysising that data. It could be just regular spiders or random google surfers. My webpage is, well, online and I get quite a lot of traffic... however most is just spill over from other sites and not really a good picture of usage. The best view of usage, is how quickly ppl complain when the service goes down. If I take my webpage down tomorrow, no-one will complain.

When you say "typically these are downloaded following shameless self promotion by the writer", is there much spill over to other sceanrios in the same genre for example? I think the scenario bank (not necessarily a good name for keyword searching btw), isn't really advertised or pimped in the right way.

I guess you could argue it's missing some killer feature or other. *shrug* what they are is hard to know.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-05 12:21 pm UTC (link)
	Err... no. It wasn't dead for two years. It moved site for two years. It's been dead for about a week before someone warned me over the forum. I disagree that the best view of usage is how quick people are to complain - Makes too many assumptions for my liking. But you're right - It isn't "pimped" in the right way. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tdo_ie 2006-09-05 12:25 pm UTC (link)
	I disagree that the best view of usage is how quick people are to complain - Makes too many assumptions for my liking. What assumptions are they? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	traveller_syll 2006-09-05 01:10 pm UTC (link)
	Pruned all my comments/replies. The assumption I was pointing to is that you assume everyone that encounters the scenario bank has a problem will even know where to complain. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

	traveller_syll 2006-09-05 01:20 pm UTC (link)
	And you still haven't deleted your posts that refer to kshandr by his real name (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-05 01:43 pm UTC (link)
	I think tdo_ie doesn't buy into the same set of LJ conventions that the rest of us do. But hey - I posted in a "public" forum, so I don't get to complain when someone "outs" me. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-05 01:57 pm UTC (link)

Is it good thing to be talked about? :)

TBH it is not hard to find out your name, *kshandr*. Some minor investigation work and it's quite easy to link your LJ profile to your profile on forum very specific to this discussion. I only used that username, not your full name or any other details. I didn't realise it was "not a done thing" on LJ as I have no problem people linking my LJ profile with "cammy" on Redbrick or IrishGaming.com/forums.

I apoligise if it is a issue that I refer to your other username on public forums as I did not intend any offense.

Regardless I deleted the comments as requested by traveller_syll.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-05 02:04 pm UTC (link)
	I did say I wasn't complaining, right? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-05 02:24 pm UTC (link)

Eh, no (?). You said you *couldn't* complain. Thats different. It implies that it is already too late in your opinion! (When it is not, in my opinion). And with no smilies in your post, I had to assume you were serious. :)

I try to side on caution, I've too often offended people unintentionally and it's easier to kill such online threads off earlier rather than try and back-track later.

And what is this "set of LJ conventions"? I did some research initially. And for example, it's recommended to *not use cuts*, something I wouldn't normally do, coming from other blogging tools.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	traveller_syll 2006-09-06 12:26 pm UTC (link)
	I am just very paranoid about this stuff. We likes the internetz, and the anonymous nature of it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

kshandr
2006-09-05 01:48 pm UTC (link)

Here we go again. I need to stop assuming that stuff is too obvious to bother being specific about. Clearly the audience hasn't got the ability to spot the obvious that I have ;)

"Best view of usage is how quickly folk complain." This assumes that the information on the site is *frequently* used. Vital information may be stored for *occasional* use.

It also assumes that the people viewing the site know *how* to complain and *who* to direct their complaints to, as

traveller_syll pointed out.

Lastly, it also assumes that the people viewing the information on a site *want* to complain, based on the fact that most Internet users will see a problem and then move on - Most faceless Internet people don't have an attention span.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tdo_ie 2006-09-05 02:16 pm UTC (link)
	I had already made some replies in comments that I hence deleted. Doh! Still, I'm guessing from your reply that you see the scenario bank as purely that: a bank that people can safely lodge their scenarios in for future reference. :\| I guess I had a different opinion/view of how a scenario bank would be useful and part of a community. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-05 02:26 pm UTC (link)
	I refer you to my comment "Does anyone have any comments or suggestions?" Care to expand on how you think a scenario bank "would be useful and part of a community"? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-05 02:37 pm UTC (link)

Okay... I'm not considering implementation difficulties here, only what I would see as a ultimate vision. For me the advantage of the web is not necessarily raw data but how that data is presented and the ability of everyone and your mother to discuss it.

Perhaps instead of a "sceanrio bank", you just had "Irish-Made RPG Adventures" where people can submit adventures/scenarios (not specifically convention ran scenarios), download but also comment/review and rate. (You could have a capsule review, playtest review, convention review, etc.) People should be able to "tag" adventures, not just have a fixed list of genres. This would make it easier for others to find adventures that they may like. In one sense, more like a colaborative blog with popularity and ranked lists more than a database.

Additionally, authors/submitters need control over their work. They need to be able to set a license, delete offensive comments, update it with newer versions, have a profile (with links to their blog, webpage and other profiles).

One potential option is to produce an annual and free PDF ebook of the best scenarios, release it through Irish Gamers Guild (as long as the sceanrios have a fair license of course). It'd be a good promotion of Irish Gaming.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-05 02:40 pm UTC (link)

On the "tagging" thing, I was thinking like flickr's tagging where the author can create new "global" tags or choose from existing tags and that you can refer to a set of adventures by those tags. It's more organic. So you could take one adventure and tag it with "Gaelcon" (or maybe Gaelcon 2005), Sci-Fi, Horror, Call of Cthulu, etc.

Tell me when to stop because I can continue to come up with ideas/suggestions! :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	bloggergundam 2006-09-05 08:19 pm UTC (link)
	I can send some software copies of scenarios I've written. I'm up to 3 now, all d20 of some sort. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-06 01:57 am UTC (link)
	I'd love that. I'm assuming you know my email address? If I'm going to redesign I'll throw them up as the first scenarios after the redesign. Which means it might take a week or two. But I promise they'll go up there. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	bloggergundam 2006-09-06 05:42 pm UTC (link)
	It's not hard to find. I sent it off, let me know if you got it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

specky_ie
2006-09-06 07:35 am UTC (link)

Well I tried the "offer the bones of this idea and see if anyone seems to want it before hanging on the bells and whistles" approach and so far I've had...oh, hang on, let me just have a quick count....erm......oh! Zero responses.

Now whether that means nobody actually wants such a service (despite what they say, and several folk in this thread plus several other "luminaries" on the Irish scene told me that they thought it was valuable), or nobody wants my particular flavour of it, I can't say. Either way, it's there, but my future effort into it will be directly proportional to the interest paid to it by others. I *thought* it was valuable too, but was obviously wrong.

Your cult status may make your version more successful ( ;) ). My status remains that of something spelled almost the same...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	tdo_ie 2006-09-06 08:26 am UTC (link)
	What is the value of the service to writers and, I guess, users? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	specky_ie 2006-09-06 01:00 pm UTC (link)
	Good question that I thought was answered in the FAQ on the site. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-06 01:09 pm UTC (link)

Ah, cross-wires. I thought you were talking about the scenario bank. I didn't realise you were talking about Game Crafter's Guild. I guess there is some cross over in both ideas but my question was more about the purpose of any one "scenario bank".

I still think there is value in the guild idea, but I can't say what needs to be done to move it foward. Some of the ideas I suggested for the bank my also be suitable for the guild. Is it a question of build it and they shall come or is it, they shall come and then we can build it for them?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

specky_ie
2006-09-06 01:34 pm UTC (link)

Ah doublecross wires...

As I just said in another reply, I don't know what to try, because you're not the only one who's said they see some value in the guild idea, but despite "seeing value" it isn't used. I think I also had some sort of vague idea about collaborative projects back then too, but it wasn't necessarily well thouht out and didn't really match what I wanted to do anyway.

I don't see a point in repeating work or duplicating information on multiple sites, in fact I think that's exactly what's not needed if such a thing is to have any real long term value. Certainly there's room for one person to do it properly, but don't ask me how you get folk to subscribe to the idea and donate their stuff. Personal influence and pressuring writers at cons I guess.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-06 02:04 pm UTC (link)

Me confused much.

I thought the guild was not just a scenario bank but a place for rpg project collaboration. If the existing scenario bank is duplication, then I had a seriousily different view of it when you first presented it.

As a recommendation, have a news section and way of informing readers that things have changed on your site. Right now, I only checked it because it was mentioned in this discussion and saw you were looking for artists for a Cthulhu adventure pack! Hell, I could help with that! A mailing list and a RSS feed would be enough (I could then stick the feed into planet...).

I think you need at least basic features, IMHO. For example it's own forum, a way of commenting on and dicussing projects openly and privately.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

specky_ie
2006-09-06 03:09 pm UTC (link)

I thought the guild was not just a scenario bank but a place for rpg project collaboration.

Oh, it is! but :

(a) part of the function was that it was intended to be a place of "free-of-charge" online hosting for scenarios, which is pretty much the same as the scenario bank, so you've gotta ask is that part of the GCG redundant if it's done elsewhere...or vice versa, but I suspect the former.

(b) do people actually collaborate? I dunno. Whilst offering the facility to do so is worthwhile, the take up rate is tiny

I think you need at least basic features, IMHO. For example it's own forum, a way of commenting on and dicussing projects openly and privately.

Sure, but *another* forum? Really?? One thing I REALLY didn't want to do was be devisive. I REALLY didn't want to (either actually or perceptually) steal traffic from other fora, and I *thought* (wavery memory) there was some discussion about this way back when, that sort of intimated that there were already too many/enough forums (IGA were talking about setting one up too back then, plus etc.com and also.org etc). Section in another active forum - Yes. Another dedicated forum (which, let's face it will only have <20 "active" participants at best) - I don't really think that adds anything to the community.

As far as other features, I thought it best not to place the cart before the horse, which is why I didn't put in features until some interest was forthcoming. This was just a practical decision. I *think* I've demonstrated my willingness to invest time in stuff, but the pot is of a limited size, and I simply don't have the time (or actually the skill set) to implement all of the features I would have liked from day one (and which perhaps would have made the the site more attractive...maybe...).

As a recommendation, have a news section and way of informing readers that things have changed on your site....A mailing list and a RSS feed would be enough (I could then stick the feed into planet...)

Yes. You're probably right! I'm certainly interested in positive suggestions for the GCG, having newsfeeds is probably valuable and would cut down the requirement for my promotional efforts. Good suggestion, I shall look at it when I get the chance.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tdo_ie
2006-09-07 08:28 am UTC (link)

(a) part of the function was that it was intended to be a place of "free-of-charge" online hosting for scenarios, which is pretty much the same as the scenario bank, so you've gotta ask is that part of the GCG redundant if it's done elsewhere...or vice versa, but I suspect the former.

A service to host stuff is not required. If an author wishes to be able to reference his stuff online he can praise the Google!. A service that connects your stuff with other people's stuff, that gets you feedback and encouragement, etc. Now thats worthy.

Sure, but *another* forum? Really?? One thing I REALLY didn't want to do was be devisive. I REALLY didn't want to (either actually or perceptually) steal traffic from other fora, and I *thought* (wavery memory) there was some discussion about this way back when, that sort of intimated that there were already too many/enough forums (IGA were talking about setting one up too back then, plus etc.com and also.org etc). Section in another active forum - Yes. Another dedicated forum (which, let's face it will only have <20 "active" participants at best) - I don't really think that adds anything to the community.

Yes. Screw the community in this case. Is the Game Crafters Guild same as the Irish Online Community? No and rightly so. The IrishGaming.com/forum is for Irish Gamers to talk about Irish Gaming. You will not split the community (anymore than it is already). We've already seen that; clubs have their own online forums. You, as in the Guild, need a forum to talk about creating games, help looking for games, potential ideas, etc. The first part of collaboration is discussion. Heck, I think you don't really need any more features besides a forum and somewhere to highlight people's work. It's easier to offer the bones of an idea on a forum and get feedback than figure out the basics of the project and then advertise for people to help.

The web is not just about data, it's about presenting and talking about that data. You've got the presenting bit there, but not the talking bit.

BTW I'd recommend something other than PhpBB. I tried Vanilla forum software for a while and it seemed really good, great crossposting features too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

kshandr
2006-09-06 09:46 am UTC (link)

Dude. Your ability to denegrate yourself is, as usual, staggering. And your opinion that everyone hates you is still totally unfounded.

I still think the GameCrafter's Guild is a good idea, though I have issues that we've discussed elsewhere.

Could the problem be advertising? You're aiming at a small group and you've advertised on IrishGaming.Com? Anywhere else? What sort of traffic are you seeing through the site?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

specky_ie
2006-09-06 01:27 pm UTC (link)

Dude. Your ability to denegrate yourself is, as usual, staggering. And your opinion that everyone hates you is still totally unfounded.

In the same way the folk seem to not spot the obvious in your posts, I think people sometimes take mine far more seriously than I do...hence smiley in original post...I don't put in smileys usually, because they get ignored then you have to point out that there's smileys then you kinda wonder...oh hey, blah blah... :) (smiley alert!).

No, that's not what I was saying. But I do think there are things that other people are going to be able to achieve more easily than me because I am not (for want of a better word) "an insider". This is just factual stuff. I *don't* attend a whole lot of cons, I *don't* submit material to cons, I *don't* even play a whole lot these days. People are going to give their stuff to someone they recognise and trust much more readily than they do to someone they've never met (and worse, find nastyness in the iGaming archive about). :)....(look another smiley).

GCG performs reasonably well on google, (despite relatively low traffic) because I went to the extent of posting on every RPG related news site that sprung to mind. There are also quite a lot of links out of the site. It is listed on such eminent sites as the IGA's links page also...and other places I can't quite recall at the mo.

All listed contributors to the old scenario bank were emailed to solicit material. Most of these, I have to admit, were dead addresses, and not knowing most of those people I didn't know how else to get in contact short of spamming a whole bunch of folk like yourself with requests for (what I would consider to be) priveleged info (i.e. personal email addresses or contact details).

Several folk "of significance" on the Irish scene did, however, respond positively and promised to contribute material when they had time or something appropriate, and although I haven't received anything along these lines, I accept that as indication that they genuinely haven't had time or anything appropriate (please don't read anything into this. This is me talking honest stuff here).

(BTW : I'm not forgetting that you offered material either. Thank you).

The site went officially live in May and since then it's had 5309 page impressions from 699 visitors. Currently it continues to average 3 visitors a day for 20 page impressions. There have been (I think) roughly 40 dowloads in that time.

If there were any interest in the model then I'd have expected to get some response over that period rather than none (hell, I think I got about 10-12 people offering relatively unsolicited submissions over the course of Diddlysquat's lifespan. The difference there was that it wore a tightly fitting bodice of commerciality rather than a homespun vest of freeness, I suppose).

Look, something about the model doesn't work. I realise that it ain't going to do better by doing less, but I get the feeling the effort/return ratio might be a bit unfavourable, especially since any revamp would be based on pure guesswork on my part (I thought it was right, people said it was right, but it was wrong. What do you try next??)

Ah well. Right at the very start I DID say that if noone was interested in GCG it didn't matter, I'd just use it as a place to put my own stuff as it emerges. .

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-07 08:38 am UTC (link)
	Look, something about the model doesn't work. I realise that it ain't going to do better by doing less, but I get the feeling the effort/return ratio might be a bit unfavourable There's a school of thought that suggests that the effort/return ratio for any work done in the Community is pretty low. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tdo_ie 2006-09-07 08:46 am UTC (link)
	There's a school of thought that suggests that the effort/return ratio for any* work done in the Community is pretty low.* I christian this "Kshandra's Law". (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-07 10:04 pm UTC (link)
	When you're christening it, perhaps you could spell my name right? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tdo_ie 2006-09-08 08:14 am UTC (link)
	Opps. I wrote it the way I pronounce it. Sorry. (Reply to this) (Parent)

specky_ie
2006-09-07 10:07 am UTC (link)

There's a school of thought that suggests that the effort/return ratio for *any* work done in the Community is pretty low.

And that's both accepted and understood. The "return" part of that probably needs a tiny bit of qualification here.

There's no financial return to be made - that's no problem unless it's specifically what you set out to achieve, and if it is what you hope to achieve you're a mug.

If you're in it for a return in whatever the currency of the ego might happen to be, then good luck to you. If being a big fish in this tiny pond is what makes you feel like a fully rounded human being then I genuinely think you have "issues".

I don't think that you're trying to get either of these from the scenario bank.

The kind of return I meant in my statement was simply the sense that you're not just talking to yourself. I don't really mind talking to myself - I do it rather a lot - but there's no point in putting in a lot of effort to serve your listener or cater for their replies when you're the only person there.

Let's face it, pretty much anything that an individual puts together (a forum, a wiki or even a plain old fashioned website offering some service other) is made with the intention that others will use it - speculative though that intention might sometimes be - and if it turns out that people *don't* use it, then you have to question what you've done. Is it hard to use? Is it visible to the intended audience? Does it serve a necessary purpose?

In the case of the old scenario bank, it certainly was easy to use but it wasn't necessarily all that visible (unless you knew where to look). As a result it's hard to answer the third question i.e. do people want it, because it's hard to know if people who wanted it could actually find it.

Judging from similar sorts of things that have been done elsewhere with little success (Bait shop and GCG for instance) it doesn't appear that there's actually all that much interest in such a service though. OK, these others aren't perfect on the visibility or usability side of things either, but the general lack of enthusiasm around them all would seem to me to indicate a more widespread lack of interest in such things (highly scientific methods of moist finger waving were used in the development of this theory).

Is something like a scenario bank really just the kind of thing you'd "expect" to find rather than something you'd actually use? I've scrolled through the bank a few times just reading the titles and descriptions but I don't think I ever downloaded anything...but I'm an atypical gamer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kshandr 2006-09-07 10:07 pm UTC (link)
	I've just realised something. Old ground, well-trodden. Again. And again it's the same tired responses. "There's a school of thought that suggests that the effort/return ratio for any work done in the Community is pretty low, and the meager returns are often negated by the nut-kicking you receive for sticking your head over the parapet in the first place." (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tdo_ie 2006-09-08 08:27 am UTC (link)
	nut-kicking? Is that really true? I've never got a "nut-kicking" from the wiki. Lack of response/meager returns, certainly. I killed off the "bait shop" because of the utter lack of interest. I've pimped the wiki where I can, but I've never got hit by it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

specky_ie
2006-09-09 10:03 am UTC (link)

Taking this and your other post about nut-kicking I'm assuming you've received a figurative boot to the squashies somewhere. I can't see it, or hear the tell-tale "crunch". :)

I actually thought that this discussion of the old chestnut issue was proceeding quite amicably (if somewhat predictably).

Am I being paranoid or am I to assume that since your reply come straight after my post, you think the boot came from my direction? Because if you are under that impression I must protest my innocense. I'm good at paranoia, but I'm equally good at accidentally offending folk with contextually dubious ramblings.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Rare wisdom
(Anonymous)
2006-09-07 10:33 am UTC (link)

There's a school of thought that suggests that the effort/return ratio for *any* work done in the Community is pretty low.

Rare words of wisdom indeed. But, does the ratio suffer from high effort and no return, or the unrealistic appraisal of the owed return? Gamers are fickle folk. Indeed, folk are fickle folk.

I don't know if I'll get much agreement from this position, but the existence of the resource is, in itself, a win. If one person avails themselves of it, then that's one person of the vaunted gaming community whose gaming has been facilitated by the service(whether they run the downloaded scenario or simply be inspired by it). Once the resource is up and running, all there need be is a little marketing (bad, bad word) to ensure that there is a flow of new product. For example, the convention scenarios, as someone mentioned.

There doesn't appear to be a need for a re-vamped service. That said, I do like tdo_ie's idea about a periodical, but that would be a more active parallel project to the scenario bank.

To me, there is very little "need" for active resources. Simply because, other than some small cloisters of friends who also communicate through other forums and avenues, there is very little activity. Except to argue... that is! A community is a living breathing thing. As such it can wain, die and be revived. Any attempt to maintain a community, especially an on-line community by artificial means is doomed to failure.

Getting back to those rare words of wisdom, if you do something for the community only for the kudos, the respect, and the many slaps on the back, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. While it is right for people to thank you for your efforts and your actions, there should be no sense of being beholden to the creator of the resource.

There is something very wrong about claiming that your create for the community, or act in the community's interest, and then claim to have developed an icon, a position, or a personal brand from that work. The work lacks nobility.

Xavier is Gonne

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Rare wisdom

specky_ie
2006-09-09 10:25 am UTC (link)

This "effort/return" argument is tangential. The major contributors to this thread have (I think) already demonstrated by their actions that they're not doing what they do for what would "traditionally" have been viewed as a return. My own point about "effort/return" relating to the GCG should have been more about "input/output" perhaps. You have to question the point in putting cookies in a jar if nobody is going to take the cookies back out of the jar again (the someone could be yourself, but it needs to be *at least* yourself otherwise what *is* the point? You're just wasting cookies...).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Username:		Create an Account Forgot your login or password? Login w/ OpenID
Password:
	Remember Me
	English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…

About

Help

Get Involved

Legal

Store

LJ Labs