Callie ([info]demoniccrys7) wrote in [info]intj,
@ 2008-06-24 01:17:00
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Entry tags:ask an intj, esfp, interaction

INTJ and ESFP
So I recently discovered the MBTI and, taking the test, I am a rather definite INTJ, though I feel that I have many Feeling characteristics (I love listening to people and feel very empathetic to their problems). After asking my mother and younger sister to take the test, I was surprised to find they were both extremely strong ESFPs, polarized in every single category. Not that it doesn't fit with their personality, but I get along so well with them.

It would seem to me that being my polar opposite there would be more conflict. They're both rather touchy-feely, and love to invade my personal space. They also talk alot, going on long tangents, but I like listening to them, as its very soothing and I enjoy learning more about them. My little sister is a great actress, and seems to be constantly performing, quoting her favorite lines from TV shows, movies, and musicals.

The strange thing is, not only to I get along well with them, I understand them. I can predict their behavior in almost any situation, and give their reasoning for acting the way they do, before they've even explained it to me (which they love to do).

Maybe its because I've grown up around them, and become acclimatized to our differences, but it still surprises me. Has anyone else had any interactions with this outgoing personality type? What were your experiences?


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[info]jeroentiggelman
2008-06-24 06:45 am UTC (link)
I tend to like ESFPs. My first girlfriend was one, and I know some others. I think understanding from my side, as usual, mostly comes with experience. Understanding from the other side has seemed more difficult in general.

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[info]demoniccrys7
2008-06-24 07:08 am UTC (link)
Heh, my mother and sister don't understand me at all. On big issues, they've mostly just realized not to even ask. (Like, why I would rather spend my time reading than going to the mall, or why I spend so much time thinking about theoretical ideas) But it occurs very often that I do or say something that is just so mind-boggling to them that they just stare.

But I don't expect them to understand. In fact, I think it's extremely amusing that they struggle to understand me.

...But then again, on those days when I'm dead tired and more than a little frustrated with life in general, it can be annoying that they cannot seem to grasp where I'm coming from. So I guess it really depends on my mood.

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[info]brewingtrouble
2008-06-24 02:33 pm UTC (link)
I think being stronger in the T on the T/F question doesn't mean that you aren't supposed to have feelings or understand emotions... it just means that you don't tend to make any decisions on an emotional basis and don't wear your own emotions on your sleeve. We still feel, of course; others who don't know us just don't always know how to read it or can't get their brains around the concept.

IMO MTBI is a rough guideline only, not set in stone as the Way Things Are. YMMV because people are people and there is a lot of variation within the set - and ESFPs are no different. Some are very loveable and others will drive ANYONE crazy.

Although, being related to someone probably helps with the whole understanding thing.

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[info]demoniccrys7
2008-06-24 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Of course I know we feel, every human does. I was just surprised that I got so low a ranking on Feeling (I think it was 12%) when I think that I feel very strongly and empathize very well. And when I make decisions, I use a mix of Thinking and Feeling to get the best possible outcome, incorporating both my ideas about justice and fairness and my ideas of mercy, morality, and kindness.

And I know MBTI is a rough guide. I mean, it's not even based in real, tested science, just introspection and guesswork. So when I ask this question about ESFPs, I wondering about the variation to which you referred, and also if I can note the similarities between ESFP experiences and the differences (I'm a big pattern person, so..)

But thank you for your response. It helped me clarify a lot of my ideas about things.

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[info]night_princess
2008-06-24 07:30 pm UTC (link)
These days, the MBTI breaks "Feeling" into Fe and Fi.

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/extravertedfeeling.html
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/introvertedfeeling.html

The difference is basically that Fi values and Fe connects. INTJs and ESFPs both use more Fi than Fe.

Furthermore, I think the older four axes quizzes and the (re)new(ed) eight cognitive processes theories don't match very well. In spite of what they claim, the quizzes seem to test more for Fe than Fi when asking F questions (and more Si than Se for S questions -- to the point that they get enough SPs testing N to write papers about the phenomenon... but that's a different topic).

There are also theories saying that functions can work in pairs. So, Te/Fi and Ti/Fe may be opposites in a way, meaning that, in some respects, TJs might have less in common with TPs than TJs with FPs or TPs and FJs. For INTJs, Te's actions arguably stem from Fi's values, whether we're conscious of it or not.

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[info]missparker
2008-06-24 03:12 pm UTC (link)
my brother is an ESFP and we're extremely close. we get along well. i think just because we have opposite personalities doesn't mean we don't have anything in common. he's very understanding of my unique personality and of how i have to function in the real world.

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[info]demoniccrys7
2008-06-24 04:47 pm UTC (link)
That's so cool! I guess because my mom and sister tend to just be kind of shocked when I'm not like them, its awesome to me that your brother understands you so well. But yeah, I guess it's not so weird for ESFPs and INTJs to be close.

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lots of stuff..
[info]tricstmr
2008-06-24 03:36 pm UTC (link)
1. My life partner of 8+ years is an ESFP. I didn't know this until after we had met. She complements me perfectly. She helps to pull me out of my shell and experience more.. and I act as a grounding stone for her. We also were older when we met. I was 27 and she was 31 and she's actually taller than me..

2. One thing to keep in mind in terms of types is the functions that comprise each.. INTJ's are dominant Ni (internalized intuition), auxiliary Te (externalized Thinking), tertiary Fi, and shadow Se... ESFP's are the reverse... (Dominant Se, etc..)
However.. one of the aspects of MBTI that I've found to be very helpful is to realize that one develops these functions over time as we grow older.. initially, one is most at home with the dominant function.. and then if you mature.. you move on to auxilliary in your teens and then tertiary and even shadow--at least you do if you push yourself...

In my case.. my Fi development and Se development were greatly helped by being with someone who has those as strong traits.. and I'm sure I helped her develop her tertiary Te and shadow Ni ...

3. As long as you are around ESFP's who can respect your difference.. (and vice versa).. I think they are some of the most awesome types to be around.. They are not rigid and are eminently practical--two aspects of our own make up that are important to me.. and in this manner.. INTJ's and ESFP's can work excellently as a team.. If you see the big picture and know what needs to be done.. you can usually make this clear to an ESFP pretty fast and then they will accomplsh it lickety split... On the other hand, they are often far better than INTJ's in spotting details that we will overlook or consider unimportant, but that are, in reality, often quite crucial in the final presentation of a project to an audience..

4. MBTI overall is just one aspect of ourselves anyway.. Beyond personality types.. we all have our own sets of values.. and our own accumulation of life experiences from which we can find commonalities. Thus, the fact that you are family tends to ratchet up the chance that you have similar values and experiences with your sister and mom... from which you have commonalities that you can build upon.. even if you approach the world from different perspectives..

This kind of thing was also the case between me and my partner. We had similar childhood experiences and we had very similar values.. so we had other bases of commonality....

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Re: lots of stuff..
[info]demoniccrys7
2008-06-24 04:58 pm UTC (link)
1. Aw, that's so great. I used to have a really great friend that did that for me. She was awesome, but she moved away. We still chat occasionally, but its not the same. But, back to you, that's really wonderful that you found your compliment. ^___^

2. Actually, I think my Feeling element is so strong, because being around these two strong ESFPs has kind of made me work it. Like a muscle or something, with use it gets stronger. So I can totally get that.

3. Well, I think with anyone, if you respect each others differences than your going to have successful interactions. Just my $.02. But I agree, both of the ESFPs I know are very good at getting things done, seeing what has to be done, etc.

4. Actually, my core values are very different from my family's, as I was raised Roman Catholic, but now am something of a agnostic/athesist. But for the most part we've agreed to disagree, which lets us just love each other. I think having such good communication, they talk and so I have no choice but to follow, has let us kind of ...if not exactly understand each other at least be more open to our differences. I firmly believe good communication is a must in any relationship, so the fact that we have that, mostly thanks to them, is a good thing.

You have some very interesting points, now I have to go think. ^^

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[info]undecidedmirror
2008-06-24 03:40 pm UTC (link)
I definitely agree with brewingtrouble.

It seems like I've heard before that INTJ's feel more than many other personality types. They attach to people and form bonds that are stronger than many people...so, it's more in an effort to protect themselves, that they remain distant. They just have to decide to let their guard down (using a logical approach).

I personally can attest to this. I love listening to people; I love empathizing. It's gotten me hurt over and over because my friendship style is so different from most non-INTJs. My close friends are almost always Introverts, but are often FPs.

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[info]demoniccrys7
2008-06-24 05:06 pm UTC (link)
Hm...I've never read that before, but then I only just discovered the MBTI. It's certainly one explanation. Do you think, then, that all INTJs have strong internalized feelings, or just some? Does this stem from their naturally guarded personality, or does the guarded personality come from the strong feelings? Do most INTJs have the internal clarity to recognize their own strength of feeling? Or do they ignore it, bury it, let it fester?

I think perhaps if a INTJ is socialized to be strong in Feeling, as I believe I was, they may become that person you described, who feels strongly, but because their personality forbids expression of that to some degree, they shield themselves, which really creates a strong internal conflict.

So I guess what I believe, from my own observation, is that not all INTJs have necessarily strong Feeling, but some do, thanks to individual variation, as we are all different and not defined by our categories, or by being raised and expected to act a certain way, which the individual may internalize.

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[info]undecidedmirror
2008-06-24 05:20 pm UTC (link)
haha...or I could be making it up? I swear I've read it before, but it could be from another personality test. Since I'm an INTJ, I may just remember it as being an INTJ-thing. Although, with many INTJs I know, it's very accurate.

I think what you're saying could be correct. I straddle the INTJ/INFJ fence. I think part of the reason for that is that I'm a girl. And, whether it's argued that I'm physically designed to be or raised in a society where it's more acceptable, as a girl I'm more emotional/feeling than a large majority of guys.

I like your questions...they bring alot of people to my mind. I have friends that have dealt with their strong feelings in different ways. Some stay guarded and have no friends, while others choose to just quit making strong friends. They kind of became extroverts with lots of friends, ones that they really don't care about. They make cheap, temporary friendship. I'd like to think it depends on maturity, but that's probably not true. Just different ways of coping and keeping from getting hurt.

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[info]eryndil
2008-06-24 09:40 pm UTC (link)
or I could be making it up? I swear I've read it before, but it could be from another personality test.

I've read that about INTJs and INTPs. As I am on the borderline between the two, I would agree with both. I am detached in many ways and like to keep in control of my emotions but they can completely take over at times.

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[info]athaira9
2008-06-24 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Dated one once. It was amusing, but didn't end well. Breaking up with someone and then changing your mind the next day and then changing it back...and wanting to discuss it all in that extraverted way...right in the middle of exams...not so good.
I don't suppose he appreciated the fact that I kept on wanting to study instead of talk, though. But, seriously, it took him four weeks to decide when I already told him what he would end up deciding about a week or so in and couldn't understand why he didn't see it.

I think, though, that the two types can really get along well when they know what to expect of each other. I had this delusion "well, for important things, he'll act sensibly=i.e. like me" which ended in me getting pissed off, and he was always getting confused by me because he would never just ask for an explanation and tried to "read" me, which never works.

If esfps and intjs are on the same side, it can work, I think. Dating's weird, because some people treat it like a game when you're almost against each other...you know what I mean? I think it's very high school and it confuses me why anyone would bother with that, but yeah, I think that mindset or any sort of mindset that create oppositions will just highlight all the differences. If the types are working together or something or on the same side in some sense, family or whatever, then I think it's probably much more likely that they see each other's strengths and how each can complement the other.
Maturity also helps.

I think I prefer enfps, though. They have a better chance of having the same interests to me but still have the same sense of fun as esfps. But NTs are the bestest. :)

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[info]night_princess
2008-06-24 06:59 pm UTC (link)
> It would seem to me that being my polar opposite there would be more conflict.

There are conflicting theories about that. (There seem to be conflicting theories about pretty much everything in the MBTI.) Depending on which theories you use, the "polar opposite", as you call it, can be the source of your ideals. While "birds of a feather flock together", it's also true that "opposites attract."

I guess these links will do for now:
http://jamesbkim.com/content/mbti-relationship-matrix
http://www.mbticentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/1416-archetypes-functions.html

(Other parts of the jamesbkim site are hilarious since he mixes up Socionics and MBTI, but this whole MBTI thing is rather funny too.)

> The strange thing is, not only to I get along well with them, I understand them. I can predict their behavior in almost any situation, and give their reasoning for acting the way they do, before they've even explained it to me (which they love to do).

I don't see that as strange at all. NJs are good with predictions, especially when there's that much data to work with.

However, prediction and empathy aren't the same thing. I can see behaviors, reasons, and motivations, but I don't empathize. For example, I can predict the results of "peer pressure" and "biological sex drive" for some people, but I just don't feel such motivations myself. I just intellectually understand these forces exist and will influence some people in certain ways to a certain degree. I think it's more common for INTJs to predict/"understand" without true empathy, and other types find that unnerving, leading to the "bad rap" we get.

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[info]kittikins
2008-06-25 04:58 am UTC (link)
I think the constant exposure helped develop your empathy in a way you probably would have had regardless, but not been able to express as clearly. My mother, who remains un-tested, is a similar personality and we balance each other well. I tone down her drama tendencies, and she pulls me out of the cynical mood swings I tend to have. At the same time, I understand her better than she could ever dream of understanding me.

I'm curious about your feeling or empathy side- when you're stressed, or busy, or in the middle of something, does it annoy or frustrate you when some friend comes to you with a continuing petty problem that you really don't care about? I have a fairly strong empathy and can be a good listener, when I'm in the mood. If I don't like the person, or am critically busy, or think they're making the same stupid mistake for the 100th time, my patience and interest is a lot lower than when I'm helping a dear friend or family member get through a legitimately rough time. Just curious if you've self-reflected on when you tend to be more emotionally connected to people in terms of your mood.

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:) Yup :)
[info]slimthegreat
2009-06-18 08:37 am UTC (link)

I understand. I'm an ENFJ, but my grandparents are an ESFP and an INTJ.

My Grandfather is an INTJ; very composed, logical, he seems to know a little something about every subject on earth. He has boundaries, socially, and he gets uncomfortable and gently chides his grown children every time they cross those boundaries. My Grandmother is an ESFP. She's crazy, and completely lovable. She believes anything people tell her, and she seems like a big kid most of the time;

I mean, she still wears pig tails and shorts, and she has an addiction to brightly colored tank tops. It's really sweet to see them together, because she's always chattering about something or another and my Grandfather is just calmly going about his business, and he stops to correct her when she's wrong. She'll laugh at her mistake and go on with her story, and he'll kind of laugh and go back to what he's doing. It's really sweet. And they're still very much in love.

He usually guides her around with a hand on the small of her back, y'know, to keep her out of oncoming traffic, things like that; she gets distracted easily. He likes long, relaxing drives wherever (He used to work on police cars), and she's a speed demon who races around corners and makes all of us grandchildren fear for our lives.

They're about six (?) years apart age wise, and they complement each other perfectly. They've been married for over thirty years and still *cough* have fun *cough* on a regular basis. I think it's safe to say opposites attract.

Now if only that explained my deadly attraction to INTPs . . .


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