Josef Djugashvili ([info]goddlefrood) wrote in [info]hp_essays,
@ 2007-09-26 20:12:00
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Entry tags:administrative:general

Reminder of Guidelines and Call for Feedback
It's been a while since we've had to make a post of this nature, but unfortunately we mods feel that recent events have required it. There have been a number of posts and comments to the community in the recent past which have either gone against the community guidelines, been offensive, or both, and that has got to stop. It's distressing for us mods, just as much as it is distressing to us to hear that there are members who find the atmosphere of the community unwelcoming and hostile.

We are not setting out to stifle debate or discussion, since those things are the lifeblood of this community; and, on the whole, we mods would be uncomfortable about introducing restrictions regardless. We deliberately refer to community guidelines, not rules, for that very reason. However, these guidelines do exist, and exist for a reason. In any community of a particular size--and we now have over two thousand watchers--there has to be some sort of regulation of behaviour, and [info]hp_essays is no different. We have posted these on the community before, and they are listed in the community userinfo. This link will take you directly to the guidelines and to some previous discussion on them.

Other than serving as a reminder to members of the community's guidelines this entry is to call for members to make suggestions to we moderators on the future direction and purpose of the community. Should anyone have any feedback to provide relative to any possible changes to [info]hp_essays's guidelines then please respond to this post or send an e-mail to us at hp.essays@gmail.com.

We want to keep the community a place where all feel welcome and also a place where all feel comfortable with how the community works.

[info]siriaeve, [info]ryf, [info]auroraceleste and [info]goddlefrood

Community co-maintainers




(Post a new comment)


[info]chocolatepot
2007-09-26 03:26 pm UTC (link)
1) Why does an essay comm allow non-essays? I tried to think of a less belligerent way of putting that, sorry. But what is the rationale for allowing anything as long as it's over 500 words?

2) Where is the dividing line between crtiquing content and ad hominem attacks in cases where discussion with the essay-writer has led to a critique on the writer's mindset, eg. a writer who thinks that the reader is never meant to sympathize or feel bad for Snape at all, when you think it is perfectly clear that the author intended no such thing?

3) Is there anything you can say about this post and its comments? At all? As the overall tone of this post makes me feel unduly criticized. "Unwelcoming and hostile"? I find many of the posts to the comm hostile to anyone who liked the books, and I don't quite understand why it's fine for them to exclaim over how bad they are (or at least how bad HBP and DH are) while being completely unable to handle dissent.

I am also wondering about posts that are excessively negative about DH, HBP, the author's abilities, &c. I am, of course, familiar with the arguments about how fans don't have to praise every single thing the author does - but surely there must be a line somewhere? I'm now worried that I can't argue with someone who says something like this without being modded, and that's hardly fair.

(I'm really sorry for the oddly formal tone this comment has taken. I'm not sure why, although I have been reading Austen lately.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mary_j_59
2007-09-26 05:40 pm UTC (link)
Um - why should there be a line somewhere, as you suggest, provided those of us who don't like DH are courteous and fair in our critiques and back up what we are saying? Isn't this a discussion forum? I don't actually see anything wrong in the comment you linked to.

To be honest - I am working on an essay on my reactions, which are complex. Based on responses to other essays I have seen here (including some rather savage attacks on my livejournal friend Professor_mum), I'm really doubtful about crossposting it in this community. And that's sad.

It seems to me that this is, or should be, a forum for everyone who has any sort of critical argument about Rowling's books - and that should include both postive and negative criticism. Whatever else we may think of them, we can agree these books are complicated. The ideas they express, and their obvious flaws (as well as their obvious virtues) merit serious debate. Don't you agree?

In other words, I don't see why it should matter whether a poster loves or hates the Potter books. What matters is that they be courteous and reasonable in expressing those opinions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]chocolatepot
2007-09-26 07:11 pm UTC (link)
It's not so much that there was something wrong with the comment as that I felt that if I replied to it in the way I wanted (ie, to disagree) I would be frozen and told not to do it again.

I didn't see any savage attacks on professor_mum's non-essay/list - which just goes to highlight how disagreements with what you like can change your judgment, really, and is kind of ironic. It seems like any time someone disagrees with criticism of the books, provided said disagreement includes actual debate of the opinions given and not just "Well, I disagreed, but it takes all sorts," everyone who didn't like DH acts as though they're being told that they should each stop disliking it. To be honest, I don't mind if your essay on what you didn't like doesn't get posted here because Im tired of seeing them, although I'm sorry that you feel afraid to do so.

I'm not saying people who don't like the books shouldn't be able to post, I'm saying that I want to know how much I can argue with them and how much irritation is allowed to come through in my tone, because very often such essays/rants come across as insulting to people who liked them, and said people would like to be more pointed in their commentary than usual. I can see where you got that interpretation of my words, though, so sorry about that.

Basically: when I disagree with an interpretation of a canon point, as I do with some essays, it's very easy to be calm and courteous. But when I feel that an essay is insulting me or another person or JKR (such as a post that extensively discusses the authorial intent behind certain parts of canon - and nearly every time is very deprecatory toward the author for what the writer perceived as her intentions but seemed completely simplistic and wrong to me) I get irritated and want to explain to the poster how unhappy I am - an unhappiness that is compounded by the fact that you find this sort of meta everywhere you turn in fandom nowadays, and can hardly ever find anything positive - but since I'm worried the mod will tell me off, I'm not going to post. Why should it be okay for me to be too afraid to post but not (as you imply) for you to do so?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mary_j_59, 2007-09-26 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-26 08:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mary_j_59, 2007-09-26 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-26 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mary_j_59, 2007-09-27 01:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-27 02:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-27 02:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]focusf1, 2007-09-27 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-27 11:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddlefrood, 2007-09-27 12:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-27 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddlefrood, 2007-09-28 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-26 11:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mary_j_59, 2007-09-27 01:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-27 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]focusf1, 2007-09-27 02:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mary_j_59, 2007-09-27 02:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]focusf1, 2007-09-27 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]professor_mum, 2007-09-28 02:34 am UTC

[info]ryf
2007-09-26 07:11 pm UTC (link)
I am really tired right now, as I just came back from a holiday during which my money /ID card and mobile phone were stolen, so bear with me, please.

Why does an essay comm allow non-essays?

What is the dividing line? Can you make any statements as to what is an essay and what isn't? Would you want those to be included in the community guidelines and us to reject (or very soon, delete) these posts? Warn the user? Would you work with us to make these guidelines understandable? Because right now I am seeing a lot of 'this post in not an essay' comments and no one who bothers to say why not. Does it have to be college-level essay with a clear structure?

In summary: What exactly counts as an essay for you?

2) Where is the dividing line between crtiquing content and ad hominem attacks in cases where discussion with the essay-writer has led to a critique on the writer's mindset, eg. a writer who thinks that the reader is never meant to sympathize or feel bad for Snape at all, when you think it is perfectly clear that the author intended no such thing?

Do you mean the essay-writer when you say 'writer' here? Ad homien attacks for me begin at the line where it is an 'attack'. This line is not easily drawn, which is why we rely on people to actually tell us when they think a comment is out of line, which quite frankly, noone ever seems to do.

Is there anything you can say about this post and its comments? At all?

My main thing to say about this is that I am shocked by how snarks and hostile the comments were. I suppose this is not what you are interested in hearing, though.

Why do you feel you aren't allowed to argue with that comment you linked to? To be very blunt, keep the snark and attacks down and if you want to, argue your point. Why exactly do you find the community hostile to people who liked the books, especially when the most recent post had people being hostile to someone who didn't like the books?

The 'dissent' I found posted on that post was mostly not polite and was thus modded. Is there any comment on that post that you found was modded when it shouldn't have been?

Yes, I am asking a lot of questions here. Because quite frankly, right now I am very disappointed that while people jumped that last post so quickly, only three people actually replied here. So I am trying to work with what I have.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]chocolatepot
2007-09-26 07:37 pm UTC (link)
To me, an essay is formed of paragraphs that consist of more than one sentence (unless you're really good with semi-colons and such) and attempts to make a point. It also sounds arranged, and not just as though the poster is making a list or jotted down their reactions. This comm should (not to tell you how to run it) be a place where things that are better than run-of-the-mill fannish LJ entries.

Yes, I mean the essay writer, sorry (I'm trying to use author for JKR and writer for essay writer). No, the line isn't easily drawn, but I think the modding on [info]julie_dslv's post is being overly sensitive. The first comment isn't an attack: it just states that the writer is complaining that things she didn't understand were wrong when she just didn't understand them. I think it's ridiculous to expect the tone of comments to be polite when a post isn't, and I still don't understand why my comment was frozen. The first line was a disagreement, the second a line from Discworld to show my confusion, the third more confusion, and the last ... I will admit that the last was over-the-top, but it hardly warranted freezing. Maybe you could allow the essay writer to respond or say that she is unhappy before energetically stopping discussion? That post was poorly-written and not an essay; many people are tired of seeing people write poorly-written posts and get praised simply because the reader had her pet interpretation crushed, and took it out on this person. I find all of the examples of this sort of "essay" hostile - not the community itself - and they still get posted.

I thought all of the comments that were frozen should not have been. A Modly Comment, okay, that tells you to scale it back, but being frozen tells you that you should not do it at all. It's over the top and insulting and makes me not want to post because I don't see my comment as that rude - or most of them, for that matter, so I can't tell what's going to get me told off in the future. As I said in my emails, I believe that some amount of self-moderation is good, and being called elitist is not that bad.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rosered2318, 2007-09-26 08:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-26 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosered2318, 2007-09-26 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-26 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-26 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]professor_mum, 2007-09-26 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-26 09:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryf, 2007-09-27 06:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryf, 2007-09-27 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snape_in_lurve, 2007-09-27 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-27 03:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddlefrood, 2007-09-27 11:14 pm UTC
maryh1000's essay
[info]maryh10000
2007-09-26 10:35 pm UTC (link)
2) Where is the dividing line between crtiquing content and ad hominem attacks in cases where discussion with the essay-writer has led to a critique on the writer's mindset, eg. a writer who thinks that the reader is never meant to sympathize or feel bad for Snape at all, when you think it is perfectly clear that the author intended no such thing?

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're referring to my essay.

The answer is that you should do exactly what you did -- argue your case that the author intended no such thing.

Although I didn't like what I thought JKR was saying, it was not meant as an ad hominem attack but as an attempt to understand her intent. If you have read through the rest of the discussion on that essay, you will have noticed that I am open to other views. However, I can understand how my format could be taken as an attack. I should have clarified the process I was using at the beginning of the essay.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: maryh1000's essay
[info]chocolatepot
2007-09-26 10:40 pm UTC (link)
I just used yours as an example because it was the first to come to mind where my disagreement was about the stuff behind the essay - sorry if I seemed to be picking on you.

It was *my* posting I was wondering if they would consider an ad hominem - because saying that someone's entire thoughts (ohnoes, I'm losing my grammar!) are wrong is rather like criticizing the person. I mean, I disagreed with your essay but I definitely did not think it was an attack on me. That sort of thing does come across as dismissive to people who are pretty sure they know what's going on, like I said in your post, but I've read much worse in that direction.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: maryh1000's essay - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-27 12:35 am UTC
Re: maryh1000's essay - [info]chocolatepot, 2007-09-27 02:05 am UTC
Re: maryh1000's essay - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-27 02:34 am UTC

[info]focusf1
2007-09-26 04:19 pm UTC (link)
You can have an essay 8000 words long and it can have no point.I think essay or non-essay - as long as it has a point - and can provide points of discussion, it should be allowed.

I agree, recent comments that have been made, have frightened of new members who I have rec'd this community to.

Example of such comments:

Is this essay endorsing HP? Oh, its not. WELL, I'm not reading it anymore.
You hate JKR, I hate you.

What's that about?

Post HBP there were some great discussions here, I think we should be aiming towards that again.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]chocolatepot
2007-09-26 07:13 pm UTC (link)
I don't think I've seen anyone accuse posters of hatred or profess hatred to said posters.

Also, there's a world of difference between "endorsing HP" and "discussing why every little detail means that JKR has an inferior mind". (And between the latter and what actually gets said, but you get my drift.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ryf
2007-09-26 07:13 pm UTC (link)
as long as it has a point - and can provide points of discussion, it should be allowed

Which is what my original thought when creating this community was.

Thank you for your input.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]maryh10000
2007-09-26 11:53 pm UTC (link)
I read through all the comments on Professor Mum's essay.
The closest I found to this is a post that says:
"Is this post for those who didn't like DH? If so, I'm reading the wrong one."

When she was answered, she just replied:
"Thank you. You gave me my answer. Bye."

I didn't find "You hate JKR, I hate you" anywhere.
I really am starting to wonder whether people are confusing comments to the essay posted somewhere else.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]focusf1
2007-09-27 02:19 am UTC (link)
I cannot believe how argumentative (for arguments sake) this com is getting. A clear example which you have just provided- critiquing comments next ? My point was clear - let's cut the bulls*?t comments and if you cannot be constructive in your comments, don't bother posting them.

The first example I gave, the gist you got. The second was given to me by a new member and it belongs probably on a deleted post - it was in a discussion with said new member that it was seen just how petty people in this com were getting.

In an exchange with Professor Mum we came to the conclusion that this com was harbouring a few people who thrived on incredibly low grade comentating. As a long time member of this community, she has provided a LOT of food for thought about the HP verse and continues to generate serious discussion here, whatever the format it is given in. THAT, if you read again, was my point.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-27 02:54 am UTC

[info]izhilzha
2007-09-26 08:31 pm UTC (link)
I admit that I haven't been reading most of the essays which seem likely to be very negative towards DH--but that's a personal preference (if the tone in the introduction is extremely disappointed, I know that even if the essay-writer has good points, it's going to be a chore reading the essay itself).

Thank you for this post, though; I wish you mods luck in keeping the community what it is supposed to be. *applauds you all*

(Reply to this)

About the mod for julie_dslv's essay
[info]maryh10000
2007-09-26 10:19 pm UTC (link)
I looked through all the modded comments. The first response she got was:
"You're right. You were a casual reader."
This doesn't answer anything in the essay, and is a bit abrupt, but I would agree that given the tone of the essay, it wasn't out of line. The mods also let it stand for awhile, as well.

The next comment was:
"Mmm. I don't think it's very smart to write a review for something that you don't know much about. Not a lot of people are going to take you very seriously."
This still doesn't answer anything in the essay, and is a bit edgier. Still, it doesn't seem excessive.

However, at this point, julie answers with a post, later deleted so I can't judge it, that leads to a storm of speculation on whether she's posted as two different people.

People have yet to respond to her actual essay. At this point, the mods come in and freeze both threads.

So far, I'd say julie may be a little oversensitive, given the tone of her post. On the other hand, she is a first time poster, and no-ones actually commented on the essay itself, yet. And her essay doesn't strike me as downright hostile, like other anti-DH essays I've read. I appreciate the mods shutting down these threads, which aren't discussing the actual essay or contributing anything except to upset a first time (here) essayist. Good call.

Then there's some discussion.

Then there's the only post I'd say would be clearly out of line, by pythonblossom. Another poster calls her/him on it -- it is clearly an ad hominem attack. And then, to my amazement, the same discussion on whether julie is posting under two accounts is repeated. Thank goodness, the mods freeze the discussion again, although at that point it seems unlikely that there's going to be any actual discussion of the post.

Then chocolatpot responds to the essay. The beginning of the post is a frank discussion of part of the essay. The end of the post takes offense at something in the essay that could clearly be seen as offensive. The last line "Good lord, does no-one write actual essays anymore?" I find offensive.

If the comment had been made in the context of a discussion that had been polite and level-headed to that point, it would definitely have been overkill to freeze the comment. It wasn't that bad, and contained some interesting discussion. However, under the circumstances, I agree with the decision.

Then we get yet another string, started by junediamanti, which doesn't discuss the essay itself. The mods freeze it. Once more I agree.

Good job.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay
[info]nemesister
2007-09-27 12:57 am UTC (link)
Hm, of course this comm is not about sockpuppet drama, but if it comes up so blatantly I don't think it is out of line to point it out. Do we really have to be too polite to mention it when someone is obviously lying in their essay or playing sock games with the community?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay
[info]maryh10000
2007-09-27 01:26 am UTC (link)
I guess I'd say that would be something to email the mods about, since I don't see how you could prove it. It seems almost inevitable that otherwise you just end up with arguing back and forth with nothing gained.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay
[info]ryf
2007-09-27 06:20 am UTC (link)
A good idea would be to e-mail the mods, in an emergency all mods individually.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay - [info]nemesister, 2007-09-27 10:45 am UTC
Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay - [info]ryf, 2007-09-27 10:52 am UTC
Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay - [info]nemesister, 2007-09-27 10:19 pm UTC
Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay
[info]ryf
2007-09-27 06:15 am UTC (link)
People have yet to respond to her actual essay. At this point, the mods come in and freeze both threads.

This is wrong. We only started modding after the post reached more than 30 comments. All of the comments you mentioned were already there when the modding was started, which is why we froze all of these threads, as everything was getting out of hand.

Thank you for agreeing with us about this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: About the mod for julie_dslv's essay
[info]maryh10000
2007-09-27 04:24 pm UTC (link)
Sorry. My bad.

Thanks for hanging in there. I know modding is a lot of work.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]peachespig
2007-09-26 10:27 pm UTC (link)
You all are doing a good job in a tough situation. On the one hand, I am sympathetic to some of [info]chocolatepot's questions about what constitutes an essay. But on the other hand, I don't think it is the best use of the mods' time to be policing everything like that. It's just not worth it for you guys to have to spend a lot of time carefully weighing "Is this essayish enough?" for every single submission that comes in. Instead I figure it's probably best just to let most things be posted as long as they are about Harry Potter, over a certain length, and meet certain basic standards for grammar and so on.

The downside of this is that some people might not like some essays, discussion might get animated, and so on, but I think that's probably just the way it is for now. As long as the mods step in when things get ugly or personal, I think the rest can take care of itself.

I admit that I like to look at [info]hp_essays for thoughtfulness and insight, and lately it seems there's been instead more people processing their own personal disappointment at their expectations not being met than actually discussing the series for what it is. But I imagine this will die down in the coming months as people get past it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]chocolatepot
2007-09-26 10:44 pm UTC (link)
I'd just like to say that a lot of the things I've been saying have ... esclated from my original intentions? As they do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mrs_bombadil
2007-09-27 01:27 am UTC (link)
I just think that the mods need to be consistent. If they are going to be flexible about what gets posted in the first place, then they have to be somewhat flexible in terms of the type and content of comments. If there is going to be a certain strictness and high standard for the comments, then there should be one for the posts as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]ryf
2007-09-27 06:20 am UTC (link)
I don't understand how you can compare the two types of flexibility here. One is being flexible about what to allow - that essays have to be over a certain length, be about HP and not contain swearing are our basic criteria. The basic criteria about comments is that they have to be polite and not attack the author of an essay, being on the essay itself. I don't see how that is inflexible or should in some way be comparable.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mrs_bombadil, 2007-09-27 12:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddlefrood, 2007-09-27 12:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryf, 2007-09-27 04:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrs_bombadil, 2007-09-27 06:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddlefrood, 2007-09-28 01:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrs_bombadil, 2007-09-28 01:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maryh10000, 2007-09-28 02:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddlefrood, 2007-09-29 03:43 am UTC

[info]ryf
2007-09-27 06:18 am UTC (link)
You all are doing a good job in a tough situation.

The thing is that at the moment, two of our mods are extremely busy, one of them being me. [info]siriaeve moved from ireland to Scotland only two days ago, I was on holidays for the last two days where I had a lot of my belongings stolen and no real internet access, and my graduation is up in a few hours. We basically didn't have time to discuss a lot of things during the past few days.

I agree with you on being very flexible about the type of posts that gets posted here and that was my original intention for this comm years ago when I created it - it just seems that the users here think stricter than me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lenaf007
2007-09-27 05:10 pm UTC (link)
I just wanted to throw my opinion into this discussion. I've been a member of the community for a while, though I'll admit I'm only a casual reader of the essays. I've often found this community to be an excellent source for more insightful work and critiques of the books. Recently when I looked over some of the essays posted, I was shocked and disturbed by some of the comments - and this not only made me less willing to make my own comments to the essay but certainly less likely to post to the comm myself having never written for this comm before.

Overall, I believe that with the end of the HP series, the final book is bound to cause emotions to flair up on all sides - everybody wants their opinion to be known and emotions are extremely on edge. I know I had a very emotional reaction to the last book and it took me a while to complete it. To be honest, if I see an essay that I think might rile me or cause me to have an aggressive outburst, I avoid it. I think that the mods as well as other members would appreciate it if people would stop to think about the impact of their comments before just putting it down "on paper" as it were.

I really enjoy being a part of this comm and I hate to see comments where people simply snap at others over small details. I appreciate the mods going through and trying to help out on the posts, but really they can only do so much. A little courtesy and patience can go a long way in life as well as on message boards - whether you agree with the author or not. =)

(Reply to this)


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