guns: Resolution: Arrested... for a knife?

Joshua (

jb_27) wrote in

guns,
@ 2008-06-02 12:16:00

Resolution: Arrested... for a knife?
This is why you hire a lawyer.

Basically, my lawyer talked to the prosecutor, pointed out that the knife was sheathed and snapped in, pointed out the mistake the cop made in the ticket, and asked him to dismiss. The prosecutor knew the lawyer from way back and did it on the word of the lawyer that it was the right thing to do.

To make this more gun-related: because the case is being dismissed, I am able to have the arrest expunged from my record, and I think that my CCW won't be affected. My lawyer made sure that the prosecutor wrote down his willingness to have it expunged in the paperwork. If I had gone to trial and been found not guilty, the arrest would not be able to be expunged (according to my lawyer).

The take-home message from this experience: HIRE A DAMN LAWYER!!!

(Post a new comment)

	osothedj 2008-06-02 04:18 pm UTC (link)
	Sweet! Glad things worked out. (Reply to this)

	angry_user 2008-06-02 04:20 pm UTC (link)
	awesome. How much did the lawyer set you back, if I might ask? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:21 pm UTC (link)
	$125 per hour, with a $1,000 retainer up front. Total bill is yet to be determined, as he still has to file the papers to expunge the arrest from my record. He said that he did not anticipate running out the retainer, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	zercool 2008-06-02 05:56 pm UTC (link)
	Fairly reasonable, and worth every damn penny. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	maxomai 2008-06-02 04:22 pm UTC (link)
	Good lesson. And congrats. (Reply to this)

	doctorogenki 2008-06-02 04:23 pm UTC (link)
	Great example of how one ignorant, idiot cop having a bad day can permanently and negatively effect your life. Makes me sick to my stomach that that kind of thing is possible, with no wrong doing on my part. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	montieth 2008-06-02 04:30 pm UTC (link)
	Well, it is the law. It's also a very spottily enforced and capricious law. That's the nature of Jim Crow Laws. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jb_27
2008-06-02 05:34 pm UTC (link)

Now that the case has been resolved, I feel like I can speak a little more freely...

I sincerely dislike the knife law itself. Maybe it's got something to do with carrying a gun, but I really never thought to look at the knife as a weapon. Carrying it around seemed to me to be no more dangerous than carrying a screwdriver or a hammer. It's a tool. It seems odd to me that there's a law that prevents me from having such a basic utility device as a 3.25" fixed-blade knife. But be that as it may, the City of Atlanta disagrees, and there you go. Frankly, my first impulse is to conclude that the City of Atlanta's values are out of touch with my own, and not to go there anymore, but realistically, that's not going to happen.

I would not be too harsh on the cop, frankly. Under the letter and the intent of the law, I believe that his actions were basically reasonable. Setting aside the fact that he was arresting me, he was pretty nice about it, and even went so far as to drive over to my girlfriend's house to drop my gun off there, instead of confiscating it and checking it into property. As a result, I was able to continue to practice my right to self defense immediately after bonding out, and I can continue to do so today, now that the whole thing is resolved. My knife is still being held by the city, and who knows when I'll get it back. Oddly, I now realize that I don't have a receipt for it, but that was hardly a priority at the time that I was getting arrested and booked. Hopefully, I'll see it again, but if not, well, it's only $40 gone. My gun would be a much more painful loss.

That being said, I am really surprised that the cop ended up arresting me and sending me to detention, instead of just warning me and/or issuing me a ticket and letting me go. Although my CCW does not legally give the right to carry a knife, it seems like the combination of that and my good demeanor and cooperativeness would result in a less harsh penalty. I was thinking about it, and if the charges had not been dismissed and I had gone to trial and been found not guilty, I would still be out at least $400 in fees, never mind having to come up with an additional $1,000 cash bond, and the additional stress of being sent to the detention center, and lawyer's fees. It's shocking to me that the cop would have intended for those things to happen to me as the result of my accused infraction and our interactions during the arrest. Does the cop really think it's reasonable for me to pay the city $400 because I had a sheathed hunting knife on my belt? Or maybe he just didn't care. I don't know. It seems like something else must have been going on with him. Some priority of his that I am ignorant of.

As for "no wrong doing"... well, I am not willing to go on record as to whether I was or was not violating the law, especially now that I see how "whether I was violating the law" is quite malleable depending on how the defense and prosecuting attorney work things out, but let's just say that there were certainly ways in which I could have been MORE innocent. Not that I was intentionally skirting the edges of the law or anything, just that it so happened that my "normal" behavior (having a knife, in the interest of preparedness) and the expectations of the law bumped up against each other.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

christophrawr
2008-06-02 06:56 pm UTC (link)

Maybe it's got something to do with carrying a gun, but I really never thought to look at the knife as a weapon.

Thank you. I've been carrying mine since my Boy Scout days, and while I've owned some knives of the "stylized violence" persuasion (automatic, balisong), I've always thought of a knife as what men used to make the world go when we clip our nails short.

I'ma shut up now. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	doctorogenki 2008-06-03 12:05 am UTC (link)
	Were you violating the spirit, or intention of the law? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

jb_27
2008-06-03 02:27 pm UTC (link)

A week ago, I might have said a definitive yes or no to your question. But not after my newly-acquired and dearly-bought legal edumucashun.

Since the charges were dismissed, and therefore, my case will not go to trial, asking whether I was violating the law is kind of like asking, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop?" The world may never know...

I will say that Gerber's catalog lists the knife as having a 3.25" blade, which is longer than the 3" permitted by the ordinance. It's not clear to me whether this measurement is for the cutting edge only, or for the entire length of the blade, as it extends from the handle. The city ordinance refers to the latter, and so, from a legal standpoint, my knife might be more than 0.25" longer than is allowed.

My lawyer pointed out that, independent of the knife's length, the "readily available for use" clause affects the legality of carry. One of the arguments that he said we could make was that having the knife in a sheath, and with a retention snap applied, made the knife not "readily available for use." This argument, in combination with other factors, seems to have been sufficient to convince the prosecutor to drop the charges.

That being said, we all know that dropped charges doesn't resolve the question of whether you were breaking the law. It just means that the state (or city, in this case) is declining to go to court to find out if you were breaking the law. All things considered, that's better for me, but it does mean there's no answer to your question :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	doctorogenki 2008-06-03 04:24 pm UTC (link)
	Of course there's an answer to my question, and it is that you weren't going against the spirit of the law, or what the law was designed to prevent, which presumably is to decrease assaults using a knife. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-03 04:32 pm UTC (link)
	Well, you have a much more optimistic interpretation of the law's intent than some. Knife ordinances have been called "Jim Crowe" laws on this very thread. Ostensibly, they might have the intent of reducing knife assaults, but in reality, some people seem to feel that they have the intent of giving the cops an excuse to lock up minorities and other undesirables. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	doctorogenki 2008-06-03 04:58 pm UTC (link)
	Well, of course, but that line of thinking is sooooo 1960. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-03 04:59 pm UTC (link)
	Hmm.... I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Stupid Internet. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	doctorogenki 2008-06-03 05:02 pm UTC (link)
	The extra O's should be a hint. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-03 05:04 pm UTC (link)
	Ahhh... got it. Yes. Sooooo 1960. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	xer0rules 2008-06-02 04:23 pm UTC (link)
	You may want to black out your real name and address or at the very least, your address. Congrats on getting it dropped though, that's wonderful. (Reply to this)

	montieth 2008-06-02 04:30 pm UTC (link)
	Congrats. Now, we need to get knives and other weapons/implements/tools included in the weapons covered by a CCW. Thus if you have a CCW permit then you're covered for a knife. AND it needs to pre-empt city/county laws. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:38 pm UTC (link)
	Well, how can we do that? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

montieth
2008-06-02 05:44 pm UTC (link)

Get the law changed?

1. Talk to your state rep and senators.
2. Get a law proposed. (I've essentially written two bills, one got vetoed, one died).
3. Join forces with the GCO folks. They're working on this as one of the issues I think. They're the force behind the recent changes to the CCW laws making it legal for us to carry (after July 1) into a restaurant that serves alcohol as well as a number of other changes to Georgia's Firearms Laws.
4. Lobby lobby lobby. this means calling, attending the meetings at the State Legislative buildings when the bills come of for discussion.
5. Having real reasons as to why the law needs to be changed is useful. You might be a good person to testify.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:52 pm UTC (link)
	How can I stay more informed about opportunities to write letters and/or testify about these things. I'd be happy to tell my story to my state rep and/or my senator, but I'd like to do it in as useful and coordinated a manner as possible. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	montieth 2008-06-02 06:35 pm UTC (link)
	www.georgiapacking.org Lots of good stuff there. You might discuss your experience there as well. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	scromp 2008-06-02 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	You can use KY's CCDW law as a reference; it permits any legal weapon of any kind with a permit. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	praecorloth 2008-06-02 04:33 pm UTC (link)
	I can't find your address on a quick search in Google Earth so it's no use telling you that your roof is in trouble. But ++ to any comments suggesting you redact your address at least. At any rate, it's good to hear that the system failed to suck all over you. (Reply to this)

	christophrawr 2008-06-02 04:55 pm UTC (link)
	Fantastic. I'm so happy to hear this. It's ridiculous that you have a CHL and they would have actually went forward with this. But yes, way to be proactive about things. Most people would have just eaten it. +10. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:51 pm UTC (link)
	It was largely the potential threat to my CCW that motivated me to get a lawyer and not just eat it. That and a weapons conviction, no matter how "minor" is just not a good thing to have on my record. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	christophrawr 2008-06-02 06:03 pm UTC (link)
	It was largely the potential threat to my CCW that motivated me to get a lawyer and not just eat it. I hear you. I miss my CHL - I moved back to New Jersey from Portland, Oregon late last year. My CZ now sleeps most days under my bed. C'est la vie. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	darthzeth 2008-06-03 09:01 pm UTC (link)
	y...you came BACK to this state? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	christophrawr 2008-06-03 09:16 pm UTC (link)
	New York City has my heart. And I need to get some schooling done on the cheap, and the only way to make that happen is through...RESIDENCY. The short answer to your question is yes. Vermont's not that far away! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

	3fgburner 2008-06-02 04:57 pm UTC (link)
	Good stuff! Points out how stupid the Jim Crow holdovers are, too. (Reply to this)

	zercool 2008-06-02 04:58 pm UTC (link)
	Rock on. Redact the address, tho. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:15 pm UTC (link)
	Meh. I thought about it, but my full name and address are readily available on the Internet, so I figured not a big deal. What specific risk do you think I'm exposing myself to by leaving it in? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	zercool 2008-06-02 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	I see a name, address, and DOB. Yes, it's all available with some digging, but why make it easy? It's better than halfway to ID theft. shrug maybe I'm paranoid, but I've had my paypal cracked, so... YMMV, I guess. :-) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	Okay, fair enough. Redacted. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fearsclave 2008-06-02 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	That's good news, that is. Glad to hear the system works sometimes. And +1 on your advice; that's exactly the sort of situation that called for lawyering up. You did the right thing for those circumstances. (Reply to this)

	hungryandhollow 2008-06-02 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	Hey, I can see your house from here! :P (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:35 pm UTC (link)
	That's me, baby! I'm not terribly worried about people knowing my address, since I have it on my personal web site, including directions to my home. But the points about identity theft are well-taken, and I've redacted. For the record, leaving the address in was a conscious choice, not an oversight. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ratseal 2008-06-02 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	Atlanta in the fall - Dragoncon! (Reply to this)

	dwarven_brewer 2008-06-02 05:34 pm UTC (link)
	Glad that technicality helped ya out some. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-02 05:39 pm UTC (link)
	Frankly, I think that the major thing that helped me was that my lawyer and the prosecutor had history. The rest was all incidental, I think. I'll never know for sure. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	aummaster 2008-06-02 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	I know in my custody case (many years ago) the people my lawyer knew was just as important as the facts of the case. He was friends with the judge and it helped me a lot! (Reply to this) (Parent)

aummaster
2008-06-02 06:22 pm UTC (link)

I have not logged on in a couple of days and just read about your "Learning experience". This sucks. I am sorry you had to go through this shit.
In my experience the cops in GA are all about writing fines and collecting the max revenue for their departments while getting the least resistance doing it. So they figured that a $400 ticket was good for them. I try to do the least to draw attention to myself I can. I also try to look like I cannot afford anything when dealing with the police. If you cannot afford the ticket it is just extra paperwork they have to do and they will write you a warning 1/2 the time.
It is B.S.
I am glad you got it dropped. I am sorry it happened.

Remember in GA police = revenue collection.

(Reply to this)

	kizayaen 2008-06-02 07:07 pm UTC (link)
	Congrats, man. That's got to be a huge load off your shoulders. I think everyone in the community would agree with me when I say that I'm genuinely happy to see you got the best possible outcome. Except for the lawyer fees, of course, but... Edited at 2008-06-02 07:11 pm UTC (Reply to this)

	abz6598 2008-06-03 01:51 am UTC (link)
	BTDT (Reply to this)

	more blogging on your story azreel 2008-06-03 02:05 pm UTC (link)
	Passed on your story to Joe Huffman - he deemed it bloggable. (Reply to this)

	terminusvox 2008-06-04 12:45 am UTC (link)
	Care to mention the name of the gun owner friendly lawyer in Metro Atlanta? You never know when you might need one! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jb_27 2008-06-04 02:35 am UTC (link)
	LINK If I were involved in a shooting, I would definitely choose a lawyer who was experienced in self defense cases, not a general criminal lawyer. Nevertheless, this guy worked just fine for me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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