gay_boys: PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME

rayrodriguez (

rayrodriguez) wrote in

gay_boys,
@ 2005-07-01 06:32:00

PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME - Response
Angela,

I am writing in response to your letter about your daughter being exposed to gay people on Pride Day at Elitches. First off I would like to apologize on behalf of the entire gay community for the embarrassment to your daughter and you. I myself am gay, but any display of affection more than a kiss is simply rude, and people simulating sex in public especially in front of children should be full of shame.

Having said that...I hope you stressed the fact to your daughter that it is not all gay people who "have no shame" and not to allow her to form these stereotypes about gays that could possibly build into something worse...homophobia.

Summarizing your comment..."They have no pride, regular people don't even act like that...Perhaps that's why they are gay, maybe they aren't meant to have children..." this really saddens me. First, I know you realize that there are straight people who don't have manners and grope each other in public. Does this mean all straight people should not have kids? Second, I would like to hope that you realize that people are all different...including gays...and that your definition of "regular people" is different than even your neighbors.

Please realize that it is a stereotype that all gays are sex hungry monsters. We are not...we are mothers...fathers...sons...daughters. We have pride...and although some of us are disrespectful of others with public displays of affection gone too far...we are not perfect... you might say in this respect we are just like "regular" people.

Ray

Angelas writing...
http://www.yourhub.com/Denver/Story.aspx?contentid=7621

My response...
http://www.yourhub.com/Denver/Story.aspx?contentid=7680

(Post a new comment)

ly0ns
2005-07-01 03:29 pm UTC (link)

Good Response...:)

Why where kids there? If she got there and is 11yrs. old I would assume there was a chaperone with these kids....and wouldn't they remove the kids from this if they felt it to be so repulsive? I have gone to Montreal pride for the last three years and I see families at the parade.....and they're having as much fun as everyone else......there are men on floats with nothing but a speedo on......I brought my niece when she was just like 4/5yrs old to a smaller pride event in Vermont and she loved it....she saw the drag queens and said, look at the pretty princess' LOL I think this mother is taking this way overboard....but your response was good....level headed and to the point.....:)

J

(Reply to this) (Thread)

jilliliz
2005-07-02 07:28 am UTC (link)

I suppose I'm lurking on your community here, and I'm sorry, but I'm going to agree with you on that.

I say just know what you are letting your kids go see. The pride parade in SLC was about two weeks ago, it was very fun, and I would totally take my kids to that (provided I had them). What an excellent way to teach them about equality and acceptance!

However, if there was a whole lot of nudity and drug use (like the one in Seattle, but I guess the drug use is expected as it IS Seattle (I miss my dirty hippies!)), maybe hold off on that.

Although, I would think that a group of 11 year olds would be chaperoned, isn't Elitches an amusement park? You would think that would be free from nudity/mimed sex acts/drug use, etc.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

thiscoinferno
2005-07-01 05:31 pm UTC (link)

Dear Ray,

Never, ever apologize on my behalf again. If you want to be an overly apologetic, self-loathing homosexual to every bigot who comes along, do it in your own name. What exactly is odd or unsuspected about people simulating (not actually performing) sex acts in a display of sexuality that routinely relies on unrealistic exaggerations of sexuality as part of the fun? What kind of mother lets her daughter attend such a large gathering of strangers without her presence? Maybe these were the kinds of questions you should have been asking, along with challenging this woman's preconceived prejudices about acceptable behavior, instead of spouting tired, bigotry-excusing arguments like "I'm one of the good gays."

Noah

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME - Response rayrodriguez 2005-07-01 05:38 pm UTC (link)
	I say simulate sex all you want...but if you see a little girl staring...come on now, be real. Oh and it's only through empathetic dialogue that anyone ever was enlightened on others views. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME - Response

thiscoinferno
2005-07-01 05:52 pm UTC (link)

You've been in parades before. You're gonna tell me you can see everyone who sees you? *begs for a fucking break*

See, the thing is, I don't empathize with someone who's as ignorant and openly hateful as this bitch. I say "fuck off", and through fatal irony (them getting a gay child or whatnot) they'll change, and if not, they die anyway. It works. More people support gay rights than did so 20 years ago, because over time, people like this woman just die off and their stupid vies die with them.

I contend that your dialogue wasn't the only thing that was empathetic.

Also, you wouldn't be enlightening anyone at all. If she, or people like her did start to accept you, they'd take you as one of the "good gays", an exception to the rule, because, well, that's how you present yourself. They'd still be as hateful towards good old unruly sex-simulating faggots like me as before.

I don't get any satisfaction out of white racists thinking I'm a "good nigger", so I don't see why you should do that with this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME - Response rayrodriguez 2005-07-01 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	As with all racists and bigots...there are steps to change and gradual change does come with time. I have seen it...everywhere I go...people that are my family, people I have worked with...I take pride in opening eyes as so should everyone. This lady may die, but there is nothing wrong with trying to enlighten her daughter so it isn't passed down. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME - Response thiscoinferno 2005-07-03 01:14 am UTC (link)
	I've seen tons of change with "I'm gay, highly sexual, and if you have a problem with it, fuck off." Plenty of family members get the point with that one, as has been my personal experience. And the funny thing is, they not only grow to accept me, but they accept all gays, even the ones gasp simulating sex acts AKA dancing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: PRIDE WITHOUT SHAME - Response thiscoinferno 2005-07-03 04:46 am UTC (link)
	I've deleted all comments I view to be threadbait. I got tired of reading them, and don't have the discipline not to respond. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jilliliz
2005-07-02 07:20 am UTC (link)

Wow. You are kind of a jackass. And please don't get all "OMG! YOU ARE SUCH A BIGGOT! YOU HATE ME CAUSE I'M GAY! YOU CALLED ME A JACKASS BECAUSE I'M GAY! WEEEEH!" I'm calling you a jackass, because you are a jackass.

It is inappropriate to simulate sex acts in public. The only exception that I can think of is unless it is a club or some other area where that is acceptable. Gay or straight, it is not right to force other people to watch that. Its just rude.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tonysboychip
2005-07-02 07:43 am UTC (link)

I don't see how he's being a jackass, I completely agree with what he's saying.

Gay or straight, it is not right to force other people to watch that.

No one FORCES anyone to watch it. As I sit in Union Square Park no one FORCES me to see straight couples making out sitting in each others laps if unclothed they'd be having sex. I see something "innapropriate" and I have a choice. I can leave or stay. Fortanutly seeing straight people act like the so called "sex-hungry-faggots" doesn't bother me. 11 years old going to an amusement park? BY HERSELF? That's was doesn't make sense to me at all...and even if she did go with an family member than maybe the family member should have used better judgement that the parade was really not suited for a child.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	frickinmuck 2005-07-02 08:25 am UTC (link)
	amen to that. I can't believe people are supporting the attitude expressed by rayrodriguez. it's actually really depressing to see. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tonysboychip 2005-07-02 08:41 am UTC (link)
	seriously! (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Deleted post)

jilliliz
2005-07-02 04:47 pm UTC (link)

I am not ignorant because I have an opinion that differs from yours.

Also, don't call me an homophobic idiot, either. You making that snap judgment of me is just as bad as someone taking one look at you or hearing one thing you stand for and calling you a faggot, or queer, or whatever disparaging term.

Perhaps if you took a second to see who I was you would see all the work I've done in Utah (the most homophobic state) to keep anti-gay/anti-common law legislature from passing (sadly we were unsuccessful last November 2nd). Maybe you would see that I work with a lot of homosexuals, attend a lot of pride parades, and that I am very active on my college campus promoting gay rights.

Maybe you would see that if you took the time to not be an ignorant asshole. But alas, you are an ignorant asshole, and you will probably forever cloak your ignorant assy ways in homosexuality, making society be PC with you. Newsflash buddy, I wont play that game.

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(Deleted post)

Re: See, I try to ignore nobodies, but you dun attacked my email inbox now...

jilliliz
2005-07-03 03:40 am UTC (link)

No, you're ignorant because you have no idea why bitching about other people's rather legal behavior is wrong.

First of all, I realize that it is legal behavior, I do not however think that such public acts are appropriate behavior. We are not discussing legality, we are discussing propriety.

You're ignorant because you seem to think you know exactly how people should comport themselves in all situations.

On the contrary, I do not think I "know exactly how people should comport themselves in all situations." I don't think anyone knows how people should comport themselves in all situations. It is, however, my opinion that miming sex acts in public (whomever is doing it gay, straight, or anything in between) is inappropriate. Especially an event where children are present.

So I'm supposed to read every entry of every person on livejournal before replying to their cuntish comments?

No, but when you are having a discussion with someone, instead of calling them a cunt, or saying they are making cuntish comments, try to understand where a person is coming from, and what that person stands for. I tried to pay you that much respect, I looked at your user info, I would have read a public entry or two in your LJ had there been any.

Sounds an awful lot like the good old "I have black friends. I actually have no problem with black people" argument.

Not at all, I was merely defending myself. You called me homophobic, and I tried to point out how far from the case that is. How really, on many issues, you and I probably share opinions. I was unaware of any other way I could make that known to you.

But I digress, okay, you're a crusader for gay rights. You're a giant fag hag who devotes all her energies to helping the most defensless of us poor homosexuals.

That is rude and degrading. But I suppose it was rude of me to call you a jackass. I apologize for that, perhaps I should have articulated a little more clearly that it is my opinion that sex acts should not be mimed in public, that it is not appropriate. I do not dictate what is right and what is wrong. I can not say, "That is wrong!" But therefore, you cannot say that it is right, merely that it is your opinion that it is right.

You've been to pride events, so you know exactly the kind of shit that goes on.

Yes, pride events in Seattle, Spokane, Salt Lake City, and New York City. And as I stated in an earlier comment, "The pride parade in SLC was about two weeks ago, it was very fun, and I would totally take my kids to that (provided I had them). What an excellent way to teach them about equality and acceptance! However, if there was a whole lot of nudity and drug use (like the one in Seattle, but I guess the drug use is expected as it IS Seattle (I miss my dirty hippies!)), maybe hold off on that."

I'm sorry, but if I want to put on golden poom poom shorts and grind it out with another man

Go for it. But why not look around you and see if there are children? I would pay the same courtesy if I was about to do something like that.

and you claim to not have a problem with homosexuals, why should you take issue with this display of homosexual behavior at an event celebrating it?

I don't. I take issue with the fact children were present and offended. It is an amusement park. A place frequented by children. It is doubtful that everyone showing up that day knew that there was a pride event going on. A few years ago something similar happened at Disneyland. There was a pride day celebration, and the entirety of the public was unaware, so they were unable to decide if a that was something they wanted their children to be a part of or witness.

Continued...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: See, I try to ignore nobodies, but you dun attacked my email inbox now...

jilliliz
2005-07-03 03:41 am UTC (link)

Anyone can make homophobic statements, from Barney Frank to Nelson Mandela. Sorry, but the gay guy whom I referred to along with you isn't exempt, and despite your valuable efforts to end homophobia in nowhereland, you're not exempt either.

I don't feel any of my statements, or rayrodriguez's statements have been homophobic. Lets go back to the definition of that word, shall we? "ho.mo.pho.bi.a - n. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. Behavior based on such a feeling." I have no fear or contempt of lesbians or gay men. If I did perhaps I would change my profession and cease being around them so much? Maybe I would quit my current job? Get rid of over half of my friends? My sex life would also be a hell of a lot more boring.

All the statements I have made about simulated sex have been prefaced by "gay or straight," meaning, if it is two men, a man and a woman, or two women, it doesn't matter to me. I am still of the opinion that it is unacceptable.

Also, Salt Lake City is hardly Nowhereland. As of the year 2000 the population of Salt Lake City (and surrounding area) was 1,333,914. About 76% of Utah's population is within one hour of SLC, and it is the hub for most activity in the area. Mind that this was all before the 2002 Olympic games. I don't say this for any sort of city pride, I'm not from the area I moved here for school, but merely to point out the huge demographic contained here. Most of those one million odd people are LDS. Mormons. And we all know the stance the Mormon church takes on women and their "role," people whose skin is a color other than white, and homosexuality. If these people could be persuaded to change their opinions about some of these things, think of the difference that could make. That is something I am working toward. I'm not telling you this so you'll be like, "Well, hurray for you." I'm telling you that people need to be committed to this kind of change in this area, so that the work people are doing in other area's is not in vain. Anyway, tangent, but FYI.

Or blackness, or sophistication, or being from the inner city, or a difficult childhood, or good looks. I've got plenty of options for cloaking my assholism.

Well, good for you! I cannot account that you are any of those things. I only know that you are cloaking this particular brand of asshole-ish behavior in your homosexuality.

Don't flatter yourself.

And how exactly am I doing that?

Uh, honey, you're the one being PC here, going along with the politically palatable image of the violin playing, stoke brokering, married, 2.5 kids whit picket fence homosexual and shitting on people for acting in direct opposition to that.

How is that PC at all? That is an idea that is very Un-PC and socially unacceptable in most of the United States. It should, in my opinion, be socially acceptable. However, at this time, it is not.

How exactly is saying "Fuck what people think!" PC?

You're right, that is not PC. I was saying that you hiding your asshole behavior in homosexuality will force most people to agree with you, or let you have your way. Why? Because it is politically correct to do so. I won't just say "Oh! You're right!" When I am of the opinion you are wrong. I will probably debate you about it. And I will try to keep it from name calling, I have unfortunately been rude and called you some names. But so have you, to me. I'm sorry for what I have said, and I do apologize. It is not polite to call names when having a discussion with them, it causes people to get overly heated, and that was not my intent. My intent has only been to get my point of view across to you, and to make you understand it, even if you continue to disagree.

Continued...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: See, I try to ignore nobodies, but you dun attacked my email inbox now...

jilliliz
2005-07-03 03:42 am UTC (link)

Okay, actually move to a major city that can be considered part of civilized society, and this statement might have a little weight.

As I have illustrated, I am in a major city, and while some of the people are less than civilized, I am trying to change that.

While you're at it, also try and experience a few actually interesting gay people.

I'm ok with you insulting me, its rude, but I'm a big girl and I can handle it. Don't insult my friends. You don't know them, you have never met them, you have never even come in contact with them. You have no basis to make a statement that they are uninteresting. That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever encountered. And as I've stated, I live in Utah.

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	Re: See, I try to ignore nobodies, but you dun attacked my email inbox now... jilliliz 2005-07-03 04:27 am UTC (link)
	And this comment begs the question: What intelligence? All I'm seeing is anger, stereotypes, and insults coming from your direction, very little intelligence and calm discussion. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

Re: See, I try to ignore nobodies, but you dun attacked my email inbox now...

jilliliz
2005-07-03 04:46 am UTC (link)

Please. What do you want me to do? Say, "Oh my gosh! You are so intelligent! Forgive me as I am nothing next to your accomplishments!"?

Not happening. First of all, I don't know if these things are true. I doubt they are, it seems you lack the prowess of mind to have a calm discussion let alone sit your ass down and write something intelligible enough to be published by a newspaper.

You flaunting things that I do not even know to be true does not impress me, it just makes you look like a very sad individual, having to make up statistics in order to "win a fight" in a freaking live journal community.

And, if it is all true, with all those SAT words all you can come up with is "cuntish" and "dumb fuck"? Very poor. D-.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	frickinmuck 2005-07-02 06:26 pm UTC (link)
	lj seems to bring out the worst in people. either that or it forces us to see what the public is like, outside our social circles. I have certainly been getting more misanthropic as a result. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

frickinmuck
2005-07-03 12:57 am UTC (link)

It just seems like people take the hateful stuff they're too afraid to say in RL to the extreme on livejournal.

sad, but true.

Sorry for the awkwardness of the question, but are you a chick?

some people like to say so. I prefer to think of myself as "mave." but yeah, I am female, to answer what I think was your question. I am not a member of the community - I came to this page from the metaquotes post.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

jilliliz
2005-07-02 04:27 pm UTC (link)

So it is alright to make someone uncomfortable? Uncomfortable to the point that they feel the have to leave?

No, it isn't. Everyone paid their money to enter the park that day, everyone had the same amount of right to be there.

I agree that if I had children, I probably wouldn't allow my 11 year old to roam free in an amusement park. Ever. No matter what events where going on that day. If there was a pride parade, I might bring my child, as most of the parades I have frequented in the past have been family friendly and appropriately prideful. I know gay parents who don't bring their kids to some pride parades and festivals because they aren't apropriate for children.

There is an attitude among many members of the gay community that is something like, "The more we get in their faces (ie, the general public), the more they will have to get used to the idea that we are around, and are going to be around forever." This is good. Yes, get in people's faces about political issues, about moral issues, about religious issues. But some people take that to the extreme and use it to grope and mime sex in public places.

That gets people angry, like that mother, and it gets people to close their minds about sexualities that are different from their own.

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(Deleted post)

	jilliliz 2005-07-03 03:43 am UTC (link)
	Well, I say no. We have to agree to disagree here. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Deleted post)

	jilliliz 2005-07-02 04:10 pm UTC (link)
	Hi, my name is thiscoinferno and I can't think of an intelligent come-back so I resort to name calling. Thats funny. First time I've ever been called a prude. Am I a prude because I think it is appropriate to keep intimate acts intimate and between the two (or three or five) people they involve? No. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

	jilliliz 2005-07-03 03:45 am UTC (link)
	Hmm, some people don't view g-d "simulating" sex as intimate. Hell, sex isn't always intimate. Perhaps intimate was not a correct choice for a word. I still however think that sex, or simulated sex, should be kept private. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jilliliz
2005-07-03 03:49 am UTC (link)

Also, how is this community not meant for me?

Just above you said you welcomed girls.

I also saw nothing in the rules of this community that stated, "No one can have opinions that are different from one another. We must all be the same in mind, like sheep leaping off of a cliff. Also, thiscoinferno in always right."

Nope, thats not in there. I could check again. But does anyone else think that would be a pretty shitty community? Because I sure do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

ogredrew
2005-07-02 11:02 am UTC (link)

Noah
Never, ever claim to be a representative of myself or any group I consider myself a part of, including the civilized human race. Your childish, selfish, and immature attitude is not something I wish to have tied to me in any way, shape, or form. I am not 'overly apologetic', however I do feel quite poorly about the things which get pulled of at so-called 'pride' events. They are responsible for creating and/or reinforcing most if not all the stereotypes about homosexuals which disturb me to no end. I am not self-loathing, but I am not going to throw in someone's face the things which I do that I know they find disquieting. On a side note, Ray is not "one of the good gays", nor did he claim to be. He is, however, apparently one of the good guys, which is something that the world needs more of.
~~Drew

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ogredrew
2005-07-03 03:21 am UTC (link)

I'm homophobic? Gee, I wish someone would have informed me of this fact sooner, like, say, my last 6 boyfriends.
I'm self-loathing? I didn't know that loathing and discression were in fact the same thing. Perhaps you should call Merriam-Webster and inform them of this. I'm sure they would apreciate being kept up to date by such a overflowing font of information such as yourself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jilliliz 2005-07-03 03:46 am UTC (link)
	You are just about my favorite person ever. Loved your comment. Just wanted to let you know. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ogredrew 2005-07-03 03:57 am UTC (link)
	Eloquence is a virtue so many seem to lack... I'm more than happy to demonstrate on such loathesome creatures (Reply to this) (Parent)

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	ogredrew 2005-07-03 04:19 am UTC (link)
	I'm still waiting for the explanation of how I'm homophobic, or self-loathing. Are either forthcoming, or should I keep the fans running to keep the smoke you keep spewing from choking me. And pardon my error, but eloquence refers to speaking ability, not spelling. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jilliliz 2005-07-03 04:25 am UTC (link)
	You've made quite a few spelling errors in our discussion as well, dear. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

jilliliz
2005-07-03 04:36 am UTC (link)

No, we aren't a tag team, I just happen to agree with what he is saying, and defended him. You have been making errors in spelling, and I don't think they are necessarily just "errors of the key."

He is also, clearly, not a dumb fuck. He is not going around calling people he disagrees with homophobic. You are. That may qualify you for dumb fuck status.

And no, you didn't brag about your eloquence, merely your nonexistent intelligence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	shadowed_stars 2005-07-02 07:11 am UTC (link)
	Oh, my sides hurt... (Reply to this)

hopefoot
2005-07-02 03:33 pm UTC (link)

Mae West said it best, "People who are easily shocked should be shocked more often."

I don't see this as a gay thing. Pride is a party focused around sexuality. So is Mardi Gras. Whoever thinks there isn't going to be displays of sexuality at a party focused on sexuality is an idiot. Whoever lets their 11 year old daughter go to a party like that unchaperoned is an idiot.

I'm guessing this mother had never been to a Pride, didn't know any better and her embarrassment over her ignorance came through as outrage. Now she knows.

To apologize for shocking behavior at a party where shocking behavior is to be expected? Just, no.

(Reply to this)

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