T ([info]trinityva) wrote in [info]feminist_sex,
@ 2007-10-15 20:29:00
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Also inspired by That Place
particularly the person who asked why people "compartmentalize" and "don't examine" sexual desire. I felt like posting to my LJ and then thought it might also belong here. Sohereyago.

There are two "models" I've used to understand SM and SM desire throughout my life.

The first I remember most vividly when I called the urgent care line at my university. I'd been having serious trouble coming to terms with my desires, and had seriously self-harmed for the first time. I remember calling the helpline and talking to a young woman, probably a student. I confessed my desires and my shame and the fact that I'd cut myself out of shame. I can't remember if I begged her to help me change. Maybe I did. I remember staring at my half-drunk smoothie on my desk as it melted, feeling like I was in some weird dream.

She had no idea how to deal with me. I can't recall if I asked for an actual psychiatrist or if I just called back the next night. But the same thing happened, the crying confession, and suddenly the voice on the other end of the line said words that changed my whole life.

"Don't you realize that among people who have gone through serious trauma like you have, sadomasochistic sexual fantasies are common?"

Common? It rocked my universe. I wasn't weird at all. (It almost made me sad. Took away this feeling I had that I was one of the few, the marked, the profoundly perverted.) I was just damaged, just responding to things that had happened to me. In a way that was not only understandable, but sensible and perhaps even sane.

Those words changed my life. I don't know if I'd be here if they hadn't given me an anchor, a way to believe that I wasn't cursed or doomed or rotten, crazy, fundamentally wrong inside.

And that is one model. The trauma model. This model says something like: Sadomasochism is a response to trauma.

On this model, it's a coping device, essentially. People develop fixations with pain and with traumatic experiences involving power (say, abuse), perhaps because the experience of it is intense, perhaps because it leaves psychic scars. But people feel compulsions to act out or to re-live their trauma. Sadomasochistic fantasy is an attempt to do this, in order to regain control that we had torn from us.

This model is okay, so far as it goes. It offers us a chance to be something other than twisted, insane, incomprehensible. But it still leaves us with something odd and unacceptable, to my mind.

That is that if we still have these interests or fantasies many years after the initial event, this indicates that we have not adequately processed the trauma. I was told many times that my fantasies "might" go away, or lessen in intensity, once I had dealt with the underlying issue. It led to many bouts of guilt when my fantasies were particularly strong or particularly violent, and to paralyzing fear that I had backslid on some scale of Survivor's Progress.

And it led to people like my parents believing that someday I'd be cured of SM, and asking me why oh why oh why I remained obsessed with the things that had happened to me and telling me of their great hope that someday I would no longer be fascinated with pain.

I don't believe the trauma had no effect on me. I actually suspect that the fact that my strongest fantasies involve knives and blood have more than a little to do with being cut open. However, as I'll make clearer in a moment, I don't subscribe to this model, and I don't feel at all sure I wouldn't have developed other sadomasochistic interests if I hadn't been.

The second model is an orientational model. This is the theory that, at least for some people, SM desires simply are what they are, a facet of the person, like being straight or being gay. Like those, we don't know quite what causes them. Unlike those, we don't have (at least that I know of) any interesting research suggesting a biological basis or link or influence.

This is what we get -- or what I get, really, as I don't want to speak for others, least of all for researchers -- when I look around and see the people who tied themselves up at age 8, and don't really remember any abuse, thanks. The people who would try to finagle their friends into bossing them around, and fuss and fume when the toppy-tots they recruited were too kind. The people who were never spanked, but who would see the family across the street punishing the kids and feel all tingly and wonder when it was their turn. The folks who tied up their teddy bears.

I don't think any other model makes sense, really. Even the most committed Freudian who felt sure the trauma model applied to me squirmed when I asked him "Can I change?" and said something about how it depended how firmly rooted my response to those formative experiences were.

His answer was the answer I knew perfectly well myself, but he couldn't say out loud, because to him it was a sentence of perpetual brokenness or abnormality: If you have to ask, the answer's "no."

It's possible for the two models to be complementary: This is your orientation, and you have it precisely because of past trauma.

But the thing is: if orientation is orientation, why care where it comes from? Think of the conservatives scrambling to get people into reparative therapy for homosexuality. It matters where this comes from because if it is a mental health problem, one common mode of talk therapy is to work through past issues. It matters because what they've got is a model like the trauma model: work your issues with Mo or Dad out and the gay will go poof.

But if gayness is an orientation, where it comes from is an interesting question, but not a vital one. Humanity is diverse, and that's that. If it's biology, well, so are a lot of things, from eye color to handedness. We stop caring why, because why is not the important question.

And that's the thing that many haven't gotten to yet with SM. Even when people do respect us, there's this idea that asking why is appropriate. It's the sort of thing for which a reason is needed, whether it be trauma or being spanked as a child or the influence of patriarchy or any number of other odd theories people come up with.

When people ask me why and I say "I neither know nor care," particularly in certain feminist circles, this is taken to be "compartmentalizing" a part of my life and not exposing it to useful or necessary scrutiny. But if I asked these women (as the case may be) "why are you straight?" or "why are you queer?" the answer, I'd bet, would not be a thoughtful discussion of social factors. A truly committed "radical" might admit some of it is socially constructed, but for most people, in the end, the answer is "I am."

And that's my answer, too. I am because I am. I don't have to know why, because it's the wrong question in the first place.


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[info]krazyhippie
2007-10-16 01:11 am UTC (link)
This was amazingly written, and as a lesbian your parallels were particularly helpful. Right on!

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[info]scienceiscool
2007-10-16 01:56 am UTC (link)
that is an awesome icon

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[info]mingerspice
2007-10-16 01:19 am UTC (link)
Great post!

I think that it is a double standard to be asking "why are you into BDSM" and never "why are you not into BDSM" or "why are you straight"?

Also I think your analysis still leaves the field open for feminist discussions of the social meanings of BDSM and how as a practice or a culture/community it variously plays with, challenges, conforms to, or reinforces gender roles, gender hierarchy and so on. Which to me is the interesting part of feminist criticism anyway, as opposed to the "why is THIS PARTICULAR person doing the PARTICULAR thing that ze is doing?" questions.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 02:29 am UTC (link)
I think that it is a double standard to be asking "why are you into BDSM" and never "why are you not into BDSM" or "why are you straight"?

Yes. What causes vanillaness? Particularly if these people are right that domination and submission are all over any sexual media. How do some people not catch it?

feminist discussions of the social meanings of BDSM and how as a practice or a culture/community it variously plays with, challenges, conforms to, or reinforces gender roles, gender hierarchy and so on.

Yeah, becasue that's about its public face. I'm not interested in its private face really. It looks like *this* in my bedroom and like a whole bunch of other things in other people's. And?

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[info]giniliz
2007-10-16 01:52 am UTC (link)
Maybe I only hang out with "truly committed radicals" then, because most of my friends and I are more than happy to sit down for a philosophical gab session about queerness and its construction in our own lives, and we call ourselves and each other on the essentialist "I am" identities all the time.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 02:32 am UTC (link)
Why does where your queerness comes from matter? Are any reasons more acceptable than others? If so, which ones, and what would you recommend saying or doing with/to someone who is queer for the wrong reasons? If not, would you consider it your place to do more if the issue were BDSM?

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[info]giniliz
2007-10-16 02:45 am UTC (link)
First of all, talking about the construction of something is not the same as talking about its origins. And talking about "where queerness (often considered an identity) comes from" is not the same as talking about "where certain sexual behaviors come from" (though it can include that). A lot of times people seem to confuse "social construction" with the "nurture" side of nature/nurture. I see a lot of people talking about "biological or innate versus socially constructed." Those are completely different concepts. Talking about how something is constructed means talking about how the very idea is formed. How we come to group certain things and separate other things. How we come to form patterns, hierarchies, etc, that appear to exist before humans came along but in fact are imposed upon the "natural" world. As for whether some origins of queerness would be more acceptance, no of course I don't think any are. But I do think the the very concept of queerness is up for being tossed around, turned upsidedown, and examined, as is straightness, femininity, masculinity, disability, America, or any other concept that seems pre-existing but we form as we work with it.

Example: sexual "orientation." The very idea of an "orientation" is a social construct (not that this means it is unhelpful or bad). I'm not prepared to say that people were "gay" or had a "homosexual orientation" before those ideas were developed by psychologists. Sure, they may have had certain attractions and been involved in certain behaviors, but is "gay" what they "were"? That is where I say that queer folks don't always leave "sexual orientation" identities unchallenged or closed off from critique. So when it comes to BDSM "orientations," I think most queer people would say that it should not be threatening to question the category and its construction. This is not the same as denying inborn or biological or developed erotic tendencies. It is simply saying that the ideology of "BDSM" is as constructed as the ideologies of gender, race, ability, or other social ideologies.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 02:59 am UTC (link)
Oh, I agree... "gay" (or even "homosexual") didn't always exist in the sense we use it now. It's based at least in part on the whole mental health classification craze of Kraft-Ebbing and Freud and others.

However, I think we need to be careful about the difference between "what does it mean that the category 'sadomasochism' arose at this time (about the same time, for the same reasons, in fact)?" and "what do your desires mean?" or "why do you have this fantasy?"

Because what I'm referring to there is that my fantasies don't go away. They are there whether I think I'm broken or normal for having them, whether I think it would be antifeminist or amazing to act them out. To resist them for ideological reasons has the same effect on me that celibacy for religion has on a gay man who is convinced God hates him for it.

That's why I think the orientation construction is useful, on both counts. Because it's a way of saying "No, this is fixed, at least for some people. It's harmful to suggest to these people that they can change and even worse to suggest they should try."

Perhaps in a totally different society no one would experience certain sexual desires as fixed (I'm profoundly leery of that view myself, but it's plausible.) But we are not in that world.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 03:17 am UTC (link)
I also think there is a VAST difference between people who are queer talking among themselves about whether the orientational model is entirely accurate, and a hetero person challenging it. I feel the same way about a non-BDSMer doing the same thing.

Because when non-BDSMers do that, it's almost always about shaming and blaming. "You're compartmentalizing. You're not a good feminist. You want a private life that you shouldn't get."

It's not about "how was this constructed in the 19th century?" often. Ever, really.

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[info]mingerspice
2007-10-16 01:37 pm UTC (link)
I'm comfortable with heterosexuals challenging the orientational model if they are willing to subject their own sexuality to the same scrutiny as those of queer people. Socially constructed gayness means socially constructed straightness.

Also I feel that the orientational model used as a way to organize has served queers well in terms of political comprehensibility (since it evokes, at least implicitly, the Civil Rights struggle) and advancement. So at least it's been a useful fiction. It may be similarly useful for BDSM practitioners, depending on the kinds of external and internal pressures faced by that community.

On the other hand, maybe BDSM (and queerness?) should be seen more as a "practice" available to anybody. So rather than "queers/BDSM practitioners should be treated just like everybody else", we'd be arguing that "queer/BDSM practices should not be penalized". This seems to be the direction that the queer movement is going.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, and I'm sympathetic to that -- to a point. I still feel, though, that at least in my own story it's actually salient that I have never been able to change my desires, and that it's at least in part my certainty that for me, they're fixed, that makes this whole "well, but patriarchy/trauma is a STEALTHY CRITTER!" stuff so, well, harmful. It's not useful to me to pretend I can change something I can't, and it's also not useful to me to see myself as someone who's been unalterably warped forever by patriarchy/trauma.

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[info]barkdust
2007-10-16 03:34 am UTC (link)
This is awesomely written. Thank you.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 03:39 am UTC (link)
you're welcome.

i just want to say to you and others how hugely touched i am that people are relating to my story and not going all over it with the.... but we mean patriarchy thing. it means so much to me to hear from other people that my story matters, that they understand it.

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[info]trixtah
2007-10-16 10:07 am UTC (link)
Good post.

Yeah, the trauma theory has never washed for me. I mean, it might possibly apply to a few, but hardly the majority, in my experience. I dislike victimisation being used to justify deviance (that conflation with trauma = lesbianism wildly irritates me too). In fact, I think I can say that trauma was one of the number of things that put me off kink. I realised very recently that my lizard brain had been making the equation that I'd be just like my abusive violent domly stepfather if I enacted my toppy desires. 30 years later...

As for orientation, yes, I tend to go for that model more, although I think of any kind of orientation (queer, kink, poly) as a scale rather than binary. If someone could solve the question of where our leanings come from, that would be marvellous - I tend to think of it is a combination of nature, modelling (not quite "nurture") and opportunity, myself. If you have more opportunities to engage in X activity, you're more likely to incorporate it as part of your sexual identity, IMO.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. One of the therapists I had who was very into a Freudian understanding of my desires (I'm still not sure if she intended to cure me or not; I suspect she didn't think she could do so, but I know she was distressed when I finally acted on them. I think perhaps she thought that seeing her would not erase them but might keep me "celibate".) was very interested to hear that I have similar color and length hair to my abuser (also a woman.) I was worried I'd be like her and looking for similarities, no matter how ridiculous, because I was worried. To that therapist, it was just more confirmation that I was fixating.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-16 01:13 pm UTC (link)
Maybe this is one of those black boxes of social justice discourse, but your comparison of queerness and kink is hitting my "do not compare oppressions" button, and I wonder what's going on with that?

The idea that, say, kinky relationships are constrained in the same way as same-sex relationships, or that kinky people might face the same kind of violence as a trans person... that doesn't sit comfortably with my understandings of the oppressive situations faced by queer people v. those faced by kinky people (which isn't to say I'm an expert).

If there have been cases (and I'm sure there have been but I really can't think of any cases) of people medically and psychologically abused to "cure" them of their kink, could you share some details? (Isn't "curing" someone of their kink -- even if it's trauma-induced -- or promoting that it should be purged, a bit like the performing the 'Ashley treatment'?)

Also, the idea of "who someone would be if they weren't abused" seems off to me. AFAIK, there's no model of the psyche/subject so good that it can predict the future, or retroactively erase trauma. Secondly, people who aren't sexually abused in childhood can be abused or mistreated in a variety of other ways -- sexual abusers don't have a monopoly on abuse! And so the model of innocence that gets relied on will necessarily be based on an idealised image designed by a dominant agenda... and last time I checked, aspiring to an ideal wasn't healthy for any women.
So this idea of "sexual abuse" as something that can be compartmentalised away from generalised sexism, racism, classism, homophobia and disablism really doesn't sit well with me.

As for asking about orientation, isn't that a bit like asking a person of colour "where are you from?"? I know kinky people who are happy to talk about their kinks, and about their relationship arrangements, until the cows come home, but point-blank demands of self-justification like that are just wrong in any situation. There are spaces where examining those issues is appropriate, and spaces where it isn't.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Maybe this is one of those black boxes of social justice discourse, but your comparison of queerness and kink is hitting my "do not compare oppressions" button, and I wonder what's going on with that?

I have no idea what a black box of social justice discourse is so I'm not sure how to answer you here. Other than to say, well, I think as a person who is both a woman and a person with a disability I can say that I think there are parallels in the ways the two groups are treated, and I think as someone who is both bisexual and sadomasochistic I can say that I see parallels there, too. (Admittedly, though, I consider SM more central to my identity and have not had the same struggles accepting my sexual desire for women. That may be hugely relevant. But I don't think it's been shown quite yet that it is.)

The idea that, say, kinky relationships are constrained in the same way as same-sex relationships, or that kinky people might face the same kind of violence as a trans person... that doesn't sit comfortably with my understandings of the oppressive situations faced by queer people v. those faced by kinky people (which isn't to say I'm an expert).

Can you show me where I said something about constraints on relationships? I'm not sure where this is coming from. What I said was that I see patterns of people who fit the status quo seeking reasons for the particular ingrained sexual interests of those who don't, and that I think those patterns are harmful in both cases and for similar reasons.

Isn't "curing" someone of their kink -- even if it's trauma-induced -- or promoting that it should be purged, a bit like the performing the 'Ashley treatment'?

Now I think you're going a bit too far in analogies here. The Ashley treatment is about mutilating someone's body who cannot refuse. While I agree that both are appalling, I'm not sure that I see any parallel between that and these types of "psychotherapy", no matter how bogus it is. Perhaps if people wanting to do this were thinking of performing neurosurgery (which requires accepting the very strong claim that SM desires are entirely biological and so clearly so that we can pick them out of the brain) without consent the parallel would be better.

I know kinky people who are happy to talk about their kinks, and about their relationship arrangements, until the cows come home, but point-blank demands of self-justification like that are just wrong in any situation. There are spaces where examining those issues is appropriate, and spaces where it isn't.

Yup.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-18 08:32 am UTC (link)
I have no idea what a black box of social justice discourse is so I'm not sure how to answer you here.

I mean that the issue of 'comparing oppressions' is often condemned in a blanket fashion, without much real in-depth discussion into it. At the same time, people who view their social position intersectionally often compare oppressive situations very effectively. So the ethics and politics of comparing oppressions is something that's under-analysed -- like a 'black box' where the internal structure is unknown even though it performs a function -- making reactions like the one I had to your piece more knee-jerk than conscious. (Although I'd rather have a knee-jerk reaction than risk harming or marginalising people with my words.)

Can you show me where I said something about constraints on relationships? I'm not sure where this is coming from.

Your comparison of kinky sexual preferences and queerness was what prompted my questioning of that comparison... I don't believe that all identities/orientations/positions require the same kind of treatment or protection from undue scrutiny. It's ethical to avoid questioning people about their queerness because it implicitly draws upon oppressive standards of sexual behaviour which directly contribute to violence against and oppression of queer people. There are other situations in which it would be ethical, from a putative feminist point of view, to hold people to certain standards regarding their behaviour and decisions. Not all identities face the same restrictions as queer people do and not all standards are oppressive. So I was probing more into your comparison to draw out how and why those ethical limits that we find acceptable for gender preference would be applicable to kinks.

Now I think you're going a bit too far in analogies here. The Ashley treatment is about mutilating someone's body who cannot refuse. While I agree that both are appalling, I'm not sure that I see any parallel between that and these types of "psychotherapy", no matter how bogus it is. Perhaps if people wanting to do this were thinking of performing neurosurgery (which requires accepting the very strong claim that SM desires are entirely biological and so clearly so that we can pick them out of the brain) without consent the parallel would be better.

I remember that part of the arguments against Ashley's organs being removed included that it was a surgical response to a socio-political failure to provide adequate care for disabled people. That was the "bit" which I likened to the ideology of the "cure" for sexual abuse trauma -- that it involves invasive and debilitating procedures to excise the disabled/diseased parts of a person, rather than rehabilitating care. I'm fully aware that the procedures that were performed on Ashley were huge in scope, but the ideology enabling them seems a lot more pervasive than what happened with her (which is irrespective of how biological the aetiology of SM is seen to be).
And if the specific issue is abuse, then a system in which the 'abused parts' of a person's psyche are rendered abject/taboo and expendable, and subject to medical intervention, is a fucked-up system.

In many ways your criticisms of the 'trauma model' of kinkiness parallel the criticisms of radical mental health activists, who draw on disability rights discourse (and I'm sure you know more about it than I do). And given that most patients in the mental health system are women, the majority of whom have suffered sexual assault or abuse, I think those criticisms are all valid. The mental health system is notoriously bad at dealing with sexuality.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-18 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Your comparison of kinky sexual preferences and queerness was what prompted my questioning of that comparison... I don't believe that all identities/orientations/positions require the same kind of treatment or protection from undue scrutiny.

I don't think so either. But I do think, and here perhaps is where we differ, that people are using related models to determine what's "wrong" with queerness and what's "wrong" with BDSM. What I'm calling trauma models are, as far as I can tell from looking at history, both rooted in a notion of mental illness (or perhaps it's better said "mental malformation", depending on how we interpret Freud's letters about homosexuality in which he claims both that it means a homosexual person's development is blighted but also that this shouldn't be considered grounds for treatment). To me, the reason I'm seeing parallels has to do with how a certain kind of "scientific" discourse cashed out what sexuality was and what sexual deviance was. Since those models made their way into the popular parlance and the popular mind, they influence in some similar (though clearly NOT identical) ways how prejudiced people interpret these sexualities.

It's that similar root that I think is relevant here.

It's ethical to avoid questioning people about their queerness because it implicitly draws upon oppressive standards of sexual behaviour which directly contribute to violence against and oppression of queer people.

So what you're saying here is that if there were no such thing as violence against queerfolk, that would mean we must or should "lift the veil" and start recommending that all queer people examine their desires?

To what end would we be recommending this, and what would we be recommending of heterosexuals at the same time? I'm not so sure I understand why in utopia it would suddenly matter why or how I came to like women.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-19 11:39 am UTC (link)
Well, I guess that sadomasochism remaining in the DSM-IV supports your assessment of the trauma model, and of the mental health systems' treatment of sexual 'deviance'.

So what you're saying here is that if there were no such thing as violence against queerfolk, that would mean we must or should "lift the veil" and start recommending that all queer people examine their desires?

I don't know that I actually thought of that counterfactual when I said what I did.

But in a society where queer people were not violated or oppressed to discipline/intimidate/excise them, then queerness would be a completely different social location than it is now. And I think many aspects of society would have to change for that to occur, such that sexuality in general wouldn't have the same connotations, and discourse about it would both come from and lead to totally different circumstances than it does now. Part of the politics of hetero-supremacy is that identity politics within and amongst queer people can be co-opted by the Right.

The "why are you [x]?" demand draws on a number of common assumptions -- that the 'deviance' of the trait in question is something accepted by the person being asked, and that the moral authority of the person making the demand, as a member of the dominant group, is unquestioned. The demand hides its perniciousness behind a pervasive inequality.
But like I said, there are situations where it wouldn't be inappropriate, and where it's actually quite welcome (e.g. a discussion group).

I don't think you can separate the question from the context in which it'd be asked, but changing the context isn't going to be achieved solely through asking questions.

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[info]armchairshrink
2007-10-16 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm kind of getting that read off the post too. I'm not like, personally offended, but it's going back to a lot of conversations/thinking I've been having lately about the creation of identity and what sometimes seems like hijacking of 'established' identities. I have a feeling it all ties back into an American sense of individualism and exceptionalism in a way and I find it troublesome in a social justice context but I have yet to figure out how to vocalize that without alienating or excluding people who do have non-normative identities and practices.

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[info]armchairshrink
2007-10-16 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Good post. I don't agree with all of it, but I like the fact that the post exists.

I don't know - I'd like to think that if we're all committed feminists we will personally analyize aspects of our lives where we're engaging in behavior that might be operating under a patriarchal paradigm. I mean, I TRY to do that personally because I find it's liberating for me, and if I get out of the habit of doing it I start to feel like I'm losing myself. If that makes sense.

But I don't think feminists can force other feminists to do it, because it will just breed resentment and not lead to a personal sense of peace with your choices but rather either saying, "Fuck you, feminism, who are you tell me how to live my life!" or people end up toeing what they see as the acceptable feminist line but being miserable in the process because they're denying something that's not kosher but happens to give them satisfaction. I think this applies across the board, obviously, not just to sex, although you're far more likely to see feminists up in arms over BDSM as opposed to say, heterosexual marriage, even though I think it's far easier to get sucked into the old, unexamined way of doing things in a heterosexual marriage.

I agree with a lot of the discussion above about how it's far more useful to say, for instance, "Gee, why are nearly all of the smart, feisty women I know into being choked and called degrading names in the bedroom? Is this a trend? What does it mean?" and "It's not okay to get off on being choked and called degrading names in the bedroom for YOU personally, you bad feminist."

I do think this stuff should be analyzed and I think it's a cop-out not to, but that doesn't mean feminists have to sit there permanently fixated on their navels and feeling horribly guilty.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-16 07:10 pm UTC (link)
I mean, I TRY to do that personally because I find it's liberating for me, and if I get out of the habit of doing it I start to feel like I'm losing myself. If that makes sense.

And I find that I feel I'm losing me when I DO it. So... I don't want to say you're making sense, because you're not, exactly, to me. But I also don't want to claim that this kind of examination never has benefits, because some people say it does. I find that as I go through life I hear more and more people saying it doesn't, but that's totally anecdotal and helps nobody.

I do think this stuff should be analyzed and I think it's a cop-out not to

And that's the thing. I really no longer think that's true (and maybe that makes it inappropriate for me to post here any more, I really don't know. I'll leave, if so. No skin off my back.) I find myself thinking more and more that what's actually important is how we affect people, real people and their real lives. And I think the telling people what to do does that a lot more than anything else does. I'm now very leery of people dismissing people who say "wait, for me this ISN'T complicated, and I spent years thinking it SHOULD be and warping myself into a pretzel" because that's supposedly better politically. I think there's a lot of pressure to be cutting edge, and you're cutting edge if you acknowledge that these things couldn't be ingrained.

And, well, I'm not cutting edge. And a lot of people aren't, either. A lot of people use these understandings because they fit what it's like to feel for forty years or whatever "this is wrong, why can't I MAKE it go away?" and then realize that trying to do so is fruitless and emotionally harmful. And often feminists swoop in and want to take that away because it doesn't acknowledge social construction of desire

and, well, like I'm saying in the post, I personally think that's the wrong question. Dragging people back to shame and psychic pain... well, I used to think it might have its place in social justice movements if it really served the greater good. But now I have my doubts both that

1) it actually serves the greater good, and
2) even if it did, there is any call or right to demand those sorts of sacrifices from any individual.

I saw your earlier comment where you're saying I'm being too individualist and exceptionalist and these other things... and yes, I suppose I am. I no longer buy the argument that those things are bad. I think there's a reason why they evolved and I think it matters a LOT that they evolved, themselves, in social justice contexts. (Of course it's true that social justice movements have evolved as well, and perhaps evolved past them. I'm not convinced of that any more, though.)

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[info]armchairshrink
2007-10-16 07:15 pm UTC (link)
I'm just not convinced that kinksters have a right, in a social justice context, to make parallel between themselves and people of color, or gays, or transpeople, or what have you. Then again some lesbians say that about transpeople. Some people of color say that about gays. It's a tricky issue.

That I find a bit disturbing (and technically it's even sort of against the rules of the comm) but I think it's a useful discussion/argument to have provided it stays polite.

I'll have to respond to the rest after I've actually got some work done.

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[info]naihoshi
2007-10-17 03:39 pm UTC (link)
Thing is, I don't read it as being a parallel between queers and kinksters, I see it as a parallel between the people that judge queers and kinksters: both are using a trauma model of understanding their subject - and thus the solution is "treating" them. That harms the subject, because the subject is not that way due to trauma, and so it is the judges incorrectly applying their theory to people's lives.

With the overall theme being that judgement of another, ESPECIALLY when you are unwilling to listen to that person's own narrative from their own lips, is ultimately hurtful.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-18 09:02 am UTC (link)
That point you make about social construction of desire is perplexing.

Feminist critiques of enlightenment epistemology have worked hard to debunk concepts of subjectivity that valorise the mastery of conscious thought over the unconscious psyche. That kind of discourse is the beginning of supremacism.
I have deep suspicions about this model of the self-regulating subject as a basis for feminism. It seems to be a reworking of the self-regulating subject of Enlightenment philosophy. I think a commitment to constructionism means a commitment to the constructedness of that ideal subject.

I know the ideal did me a lot of harm, as a woman, and a mentally ill woman at that.

Secondly, I've never seen anyone think their way out of their desires.

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(Anonymous)
2007-10-18 05:43 pm UTC (link)
I feel strongly that valorizing the subconscious (which is what we end up doing when we think we need to de-valorize conscious thought) is dangerous. Because the problem with the subconscious is that we can suppose anything we want to be hiding in there. There's no real criteria of falsifiability.

And that has done me real harm, so I'm going to have to say I fall on the absolute other side of this divide (and like I've said before, I think that some, though by no means all, criticisms of Enlightenment thinkers are terribly overbroad and not useful, so bringing them up doesn't threaten me much.) People assuming what must BE in my head from what I've told them IS in my head... well, that's exactly what the trauma model is.

These desires are in my head
I have experienced trauma
THEREFORE THE GOOD FREUDIAN CONCLUDES
These two are inseparably and obviously connected
Once there is no need for the coping device/processing, the fantasies will vanish.

Some go further: one therapist told me my SM desires came out of a subconscious need to injure my mother. The proof? I was nineteen and pissed off at her, like many adolescents are.

All of that is based on assumptions that

there is a subconscious
there are detectable patterns in it
these patterns are at least roughly similar in different people
these patterns can, and should, be examined and (if possible) altered

I don't know why you say you've found it helpful to believe that the conscious mind matters so little. It seems quite personal in your case so I'm not going to challenge your subjective experience.

But MY subjective experience has been that mental health professionals relying too heavily on those models have used their power over me to come up with any supposition they liked about the REAL contents of my head (because of course my saying "No" is my conscious mind in denial, and the conscious mind doesn't matter.)

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-18 05:44 pm UTC (link)
I feel strongly that valorizing the subconscious (which is what we end up doing when we think we need to de-valorize conscious thought) is dangerous. Because the problem with the subconscious is that we can suppose anything we want to be hiding in there. There's no real criteria of falsifiability.

And that has done me real harm, so I'm going to have to say I fall on the absolute other side of this divide (and like I've said before, I think that some, though by no means all, criticisms of Enlightenment thinkers are terribly overbroad and not useful, so bringing them up doesn't threaten me much.) People assuming what must BE in my head from what I've told them IS in my head... well, that's exactly what the trauma model is.

These desires are in my head
I have experienced trauma
THEREFORE THE GOOD FREUDIAN CONCLUDES
These two are inseparably and obviously connected
Once there is no need for the coping device/processing, the fantasies will vanish.

Some go further: one therapist told me my SM desires came out of a subconscious need to injure my mother. The proof? I was nineteen and pissed off at her, like many adolescents are.

All of that is based on assumptions that

there is a subconscious
there are detectable patterns in it
these patterns are at least roughly similar in different people
these patterns can, and should, be examined and (if possible) altered

I don't know why you say you've found it helpful to believe that the conscious mind matters so little. It seems quite personal in your case so I'm not going to challenge your subjective experience.

But MY subjective experience has been that mental health professionals relying too heavily on those models have used their power over me to come up with any supposition they liked about the REAL contents of my head (because of course my saying "No" is my conscious mind in denial, and the conscious mind doesn't matter.)

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-19 11:48 am UTC (link)
I don't know where you're getting this from.

I said feminist epistemologists had criticised the idealisation of a rational, self-regulating subject, not what they'd proposed in its place or even the basis for that critique (and no, I really don't see your conclusions from that premise). I don't think feminists have valorised the subconscious at all -- I think feminism has overall recognised the need for conscious self-transformation and self-knowledge without recourse to a model of a self-regulating subject or an ideal of absolute epistemic/ethical autonomy.

I don't know why you say you've found it helpful to believe that the conscious mind matters so little.

So little as what?

You're reading a whole lot into my words that was never there.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-19 03:21 pm UTC (link)
Okay. I have to admit I'm having a lot of trouble understanding exactly what you're saying.

Would you mind telling me what this means:

"I know the ideal did me a lot of harm, as a woman, and a mentally ill woman at that."

I interpreted it to mean that valorizing the conscious mind did you harm somehow, but I'm not sure what the harm is. A model that makes the subconscious primary *might* (but again, I don't know quite what you're saying harmed you) provide a way of treating mental illness that focuses on the subconscious mind (Freudian models would be the very old-school version of this. I don't know as much about modern-day psychoanalysis, as my own therapists and I have generally agreed that what's best for me is avoiding a focus on my subconscious, for the reasons I've already given) but I'm not sure how that lessens or mitigates the harms you've experienced.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-20 09:31 am UTC (link)
I never said anything about valorising the subconscious. You brought that up here: I feel strongly that valorizing the subconscious (which is what we end up doing when we think we need to de-valorize conscious thought) is dangerous.

I argued that inversion of a conscious/unconscious split, with one assuming primacy, was not necessarily the outcome of deconstructing the idealisation of a rational, self-regulating subject. That, in fact, feminists have avoided an inversion of that binary.

I don't really want to risk any more misunderstanding in trying to explain myself to you on any more personal a level than that, so your curiosity about what was and was not harmful to me must remain unsatisfied.

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[info]trinityva
2007-10-20 02:53 pm UTC (link)
I argued that inversion of a conscious/unconscious split, with one assuming primacy, was not necessarily the outcome of deconstructing the idealisation of a rational, self-regulating subject. That, in fact, feminists have avoided an inversion of that binary.

How do you think we've managed this? It seems to me that we really haven't -- it's very common to find feminists picking through other women's motivations and refusing to accept their assertions when they claim to be making autonomous choices. How have we managed successfully to determine when we are mistakenly chalking things up to the unconscious and when we're not? I don't see you making an argument here, and I'm not sure if I'm missing something or not -- your writing is quite terse and densely packed and I have trouble teasing out the full threads of argument in it.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-20 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Well, the whole phenomenon of consciousness raising is about the oscillation between 'theory' (as in, political analysis) and experience which doesn't take either at face value. The aim is towards constructing a consciousness out of both feelings and politics. I know that's not how it always works in practice, and I can appreciate that there's a lot of potential for judging in that process, but I think that feminist philosophers have taken pretty seriously the transformative potential in a feminist consciousness based on reflective examination of experience.

I think there's also a strong thread of appreciation of the social significance of emotions -- without resorting to psychological determinism -- in feminist writings about caring labour.

I've also found that feminist activism takes caring more seriously than other kinds of activism, and that protocols around debriefing, grievance procedures, safety, and childcare are much stronger in feminist activist spaces than most other activist spaces. I think feminists are leading the way in this respect -- activist community-building to make activism more accessible.

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(Anonymous)
2007-10-21 12:46 am UTC (link)
Well, the whole phenomenon of consciousness raising is about the oscillation between 'theory' (as in, political analysis) and experience which doesn't take either at face value. The aim is towards constructing a consciousness out of both feelings and politics.

Yes, and I think it can be a good thing when it remains about women talking about the personal and being informed by it. That makes sense to me: a bunch of women talking about their experiences and figuring out together whether the things they experience are one-offs in their daily life or results of something more systemic.

But I think it's really an issue/problem when people put the politics first, and consider a raised consciousness to mean something like "an awareness that such and such ISN'T merely personal, and if you still think it is there's a problem." And I don't know how best to avoid this when one major premise of feminism (or at least of many feminisms I've seen) is that privilege or oppression cloud our understanding of the world and our place in it.

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[info]fire_fly
2007-10-22 04:04 am UTC (link)
Well, standpoint theory posits that oppression promotes a better understanding of the dynamics of a social system than does privilege. However, this is quite problematic, since what about all those people who experience privileges and oppressive conditions at the same time?

I think a 'raised consciousness' is more about seeing your own practices in the context of a broader social system. And that demands a certain level of commitment to the well-being and needs of humans. It becomes problematic when that becomes a prescriptive homogenisation of all people, or all people in a certain social group/category. But I think the answer to that is more political/personal dialogue rather than the closing down of an area of life to political 'scrutiny'.

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(Anonymous)
2007-10-16 07:07 pm UTC (link)
excellent points

please repost with lj-cut.

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[info]shapesofbirds
2007-10-17 08:56 am UTC (link)
lol hello cryptic anon!


it's not really that long, I don't think.

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[info]pachakuti
2007-10-18 03:53 pm UTC (link)
I've been thinking over your post for several days now-I'd like to say it was a good post. I disagree wholeheartedly with a lot of it, but it definitely helped me to understand that viewpoint a lot better than I have before.

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(Anonymous)
2007-10-18 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Thinking is good. I've definitely been made to think quite a lot by the people who claim that our desires are deeply shaped by culture, patriarchy, etc. as well. While in the end I think those views overreach tremendously and are always in danger of teetering into disrespect, I definitely think they're worth thinking about.

You know you've done something right when you can get people who disagree profoundly thinking. :)

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