one night to push&scream. ([info]burningmarl) wrote in [info]feminist_rage,
@ 2008-04-04 21:48:00
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I don't post here usually and this isn't so much a rage, but an expression of frustration!!

I've been asked a really stupid question by a friend and I basically just wanted to tell some other feminists how annoying a question it is, and how perplexed I am about how to answer it sensitively while also being assertive. I don't want to pander him and spoon feed him because feminists shouldn't have to do that for men, but he is a man I care for like a brother.

I did that meme going 'round about 'blog about things you largely don't' and a [feminist] friend asked me what i would hypothetically say to a young girl who didn't feel feminism was relevant. I answered to the best of my ability and my [close, also rl] friend basically commented in a way that suggested they DESPERATELY needed reassurance that THEY wern't sexist, needed to inform me they DEFINITELY WERN'T a misogynist and also asked if unearned privilege was a Bad Thing.

It just seemed to me to be one more example of feminist discourse derailed by men's seemingly inherant need to go WHAT ABOUT ME. If he wasn't such a dear friend I'd be tempted just to give it no response at all, answer the more sensible points but otherwise reaffirm that I don't need to give absolution to men because of the patriarchy. I think if men want to become feminists, they really need to learn how to stfd, confront their privilege and learn from us.



I've added my comments in italics.
-----

I have questions if you don't mind. You don't need to answer them in essay form though ;)

1) Is there anything wrong with unearned privilege?
How can there be anything RIGHT with it?!

2) The media compartmentalises and reduces everything to soundbites, especially political issues. Do you feel that there is any difference with the way this is done to feminism, and do you really believe it is a conscious choice to benefit the patriarchy?
Yes and no, there are horrible people out there but there are also people that are brought up into the system with their male privilege that never question it&so it perpetuates it. Also true for classism and racism. That incredulous 'really' makes me feel like a conspiracy theorist though

3) As you know, I support feminism from the men and women should be equal point of view, dislike men who mistreat women, believe the pay gap should be eliminated etc. However, I still have issues with the idea of the patriarchy. I can see language, pay gap, rape convictions etc all being products of misogyny, but I don't see men working together to keep women down across the board. I've certainly never been approached to do my bit, although perhaps they know I'd say no ;)
How do I point out his obvious insecurity here sensitively?!

So my question is, what causes the patriarchy, how can it be dismantled, and who is to blame? And overall, what exactly is it?

A thought which might or might not affect your answers - I think one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with the idea of the patriarchy is I hate the idea that I am, even unconsciously, part of devaluing women just because I was born with a penis.

So another question to add on to the last one I guess - is every man part of the patriarchy - if so, is it possible for a man to escape it and if not, roughly how "large" is the patriarchy?
Again, how can I say that YES, you have privilege and maybe you should confront it and maybe you should actually talk about feminism and not the feelings of men every time we ever talk about this



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[info]tabari
2008-04-04 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Tell him first that privilege isn't so much about being part of a conspiracy to keep women down as it is receiving benefits not because of your merits but because of equipment you received at birth. Then suggest to him that one of the big problems with male privilege, white privilege, and class privilege are that privileged people rarely realize on their own the ways in which they are benefiting at others' expenses, because it's not always easy to see what you deserve based on your own talents and skills, and what you receive because people assume, for instance, that you'll be better at math because you're a man.

Then point out that being recipients of unearned privileges can shape peoples' mindsets. If you're not aware of all the ways in which you benefit from being male, you may think that women are overreacting, or being "hysterical", when they talk about male privilege and sexism. Privilege and the institutions which support it are often invisible to the privileged and glaringly obvious to the unprivileged.

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[info]burningmarl
2008-04-04 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Thanks very much, I may borrow your exact words because they're so clear, concise and non-accusatory :]

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[info]cicipsychobunny
2008-04-04 10:06 pm UTC (link)
#3 just infuriates me. "Well of COURSE I support your cute little movement, BUT you're wrong."

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[info]burningmarl
2008-04-04 10:08 pm UTC (link)
I feel duty bound to point out he'd be horrified that it had been read that way...but of course that is a very clear interpretation of it. I got that vibe too. Thanks for being supportive of my frustration!

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[info]cicipsychobunny
2008-04-04 10:10 pm UTC (link)
No worries!

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[info]lost_angelwings
2008-04-04 10:34 pm UTC (link)
#3 bothers me too. I'm tired of hearing ppl say that, which is "sure I believe in equal rights and I WANT you to have equal rights, but I think you're wrong about everything else, you should just let me decide what you wimminz want and what's best for you wimminz"

I'm tired of this "liberal guilt" thing where ppl feel that they CANNOT be racist/sexist/etc, that being even unknowingly supportive of a sexist culture, or not seeing the problems, means that they are TEH MOST HORRIBLE SEXIST EVAR!

Srsly, NOBODY IS PERFECT. If that guy TRULY WANTS TO HELP, he would also examine his own privilege rather than "can you plz limit feminism to attacking ppl who aren't me and parts of society that i enjoy? b/c i'm a nice guy, rly... and i can't be sexist, so plz dun make me even think i might be sexist.. cuz i'm not"

UGH

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[info]burningmarl
2008-04-04 10:36 pm UTC (link)
that really is what he's saying, and thank god other people felt that way too! am now scared of coming off like too much of an 'extreme' feminist which is just bollocks, i should never feel that way! thanks for supporting me&making me feel normal again lol

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[info]guinevere33
2008-04-05 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I'm tired of this "liberal guilt" thing where ppl feel that they CANNOT be racist/sexist/etc, that being even unknowingly supportive of a sexist culture, or not seeing the problems, means that they are TEH MOST HORRIBLE SEXIST EVAR!

Side rant: it would have been easier had the "racial diversity" groups on my college campus not put it in exactly those terms. Basically, their propaganda boiled down not to awareness of privilege but that if you were white, you were automatically a horrible, horrible racist and needed lots of group therapy (sponsored, conveniently, by them) to get over it. It was incredibly off-putting.

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[info]tayefeth
2008-04-05 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Remember that "I don't benefit from racism!" cartoon that was posted recently? If we forwarded that to Alison Bechdel (or some other feminist cartoonist), do you think we could get the equivalent for sexism, just for handing to guys who Don't Get It?

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[info]burningmarl
2008-04-05 09:01 pm UTC (link)
haha, I wish!
Thanks :]

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[info]batgirl20
2008-04-08 04:26 am UTC (link)
for Q1 I would tell him it depends on what he does with it!

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