feminist_gamers: Me, I'll focus on the important shit

tekanji (

tekanji) wrote in

feminist_gamers,
@ 2006-04-09 12:25:00

Current mood:

angry

Me, I'll focus on the important shit
Apparently, ranting about the "sanctimonious women's studies set" isn't just for Kos anymore. Certain male gamers are shocked -- nay, furious! -- that some women gamers aren't satisfied with some choices that Bethesda made in their designing and marketing of Oblivion. Apparently, most gamer guys love gamer girls only as long as we don't talk about how, you know, we don't want to be marginalized in some way by every fucking game that's ever been made (with the possible exception of Beyond Good & Evil). Then they feel the need to call our concerns "ridiculous" and even attack people personally. But what do I know? I'm too busy being consumed by the continuous "panty/tickle fights" that are all gamer girls engage in for the pleasure of gamer guys. Because we're only "gamers" to get dates.

Do I sound angry? Hostile, perhaps? That's because I am. I am sick of this. Do you hear me, men who feel it's your right to dismiss your female counterparts? I AM SICK OF THIS, AND I AM SICK OF YOU. Check your fucking privilege already. You don't have a problem with the gender representation in games because the gender you identify with is already catered to almost exclusively? Good for you. No one is saying you have to get out there and fight along side those of us who do. But keep your noses out of it if all you're going to do is try to control what other people find problematic. The old adage applies here: if you don't have anything nice to say, then keep your little obnoxious traps shut. Because I, for one, am sick of it.

(Post a new comment)

	typhoid 2006-04-09 03:49 am UTC (link)
	claps Now I'm sorry I bought Oblivion (I haven't played it yet). What pisses me off further is the reaction that "well, 90% of the players are male so it's understandable." NO! OVER THIRTY PERCENT OF ALL ROLE PLAYING VIDEO GAMERS ARE FEMALE. And over 43% of ALL gamers are female. Yeah, the under representation is SO deserved... I hate people. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	tekanji 2006-04-09 05:45 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I wish people would realize that just because marketing thinks that an overwhelming majority of gamers are male, doesn't make it so. But that would, you know, require them to actually use their brain muscles. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	erlkonigvinz 2006-04-16 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	Marketing: The reason all industries have been preparing to stagnate and perish without even fighting to exist lately. In most cases, I would say calling an area of a corporation a 'group of drunken fratboys' is a destructive generalisation. But for marketing? No better way to describe it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rb13 2006-04-10 11:03 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think you should be sorry you bought it. By all accounts, it's a decent (many say "awesome" or "brilliant") game, despite the starting gender inequality. Besides, there are mods to get rid of the stat-based gender inequality: http://ninthwavedesigns.typepad.com/guilded_lilies/2006/04/the_oblivion_eq.html (Reply to this)(Parent)

	asininehazel 2006-04-09 05:28 am UTC (link)
	Thank you babe for bringing this to my attention. I posted a response on Error Macro's blog-the only male one you have that is cordial. Comfort cookies It irks me too, and I think you summed up what I think about the whole situation in you're last paragraph. Hope you have a better day tomorrow. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	tekanji 2006-04-09 05:47 am UTC (link)
	munches on the cookies Thanks for the cookies and the support! I think Error Macro is moderated, 'cause I don't see your comment yet. I've thought about commenting there, but I'm still a bit too angry to be coherent. Thankfully this bullcrap hasn't ruined my day. I made myself a nice and tasty lunch and am back to reading my blogs. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

asininehazel
2006-04-09 05:59 am UTC (link)

Well good! Happy to see the cookies can uplift the oversexed!

I completely understand the "too angry" statement. I went to Barnes and Noble tonight and picked up a Pro-Choice book by Betty Feltd (?) and nearly choked when I saw a quotation from Bush, "I will ban abortion."
...I had to put the book down and walk away else I would of punched a bookshelf.

I was a bit teary eyed to see the comment not go up, I thought I did fairly well. I copied and saved it just in case something like this happened, so I'll repost it for you. I would really like you're opinion on my opinion...annnnd that sounded odd, but here I go!

I agree with both of you're statements.

A picture depicting one gender is a small thing, but it is in the context in which it is published that creates the problem for someone who is sensitive to it. A feminist, male, female, etc etc. It may remind a few people that the gaming industry is a male dominated past-time and not a females.

Genders have different chemicals, and thus that makes their bodies different I understand that. I don't like it but I understand it. The contradiction for me here is I think that switching abilities based on gender, in the game, shortchanges both sexes. Women get the personality and the men get the strength...I don't understand why there hasn't been any discussion or annoyance at that. Shouldn't men feel robbed, in a way, about the male avatar appearing less charismatic or intelligent? In literal terms this means the male avatars are stupid and inept. I don't know about what you feel personally but I feel a little urked.

It's a challenge at times to be a female gamer in a industry that barely blinks at you, and when they do their gaze is drawn to mammeries, toothpick waists, and on which pedestal they can place you.

Our society impresses upon us, pretty harshly, that we should be heterosexual, feminine and petite if we're female and not feminine if you are a male. So if women get a little angry at seeing another flag being raised to the majority I hope you won't be too surprised. Women in America get bombarded from all sides, and women want the same thing as men when they sit down to a game and hope to lose themselves in it. We just don't want to be reminded of the Media and Society bullet holes we're carrying around when we do play. And that is partly where the criticism for Oblivion is coming from.

Thank you for being able to talk about this in the way you are. I think you are very cordial and informed. I'm not asking you to convert to my opinions but to hear them would be enough for me.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tekanji
2006-04-09 06:11 am UTC (link)

It sounds like a pretty good comment. I'm guessing that either the blog is moderated or something got flagged for moderation. I would be surprised if the author didn't let the comment go through, especially since you're so nice about things.

One comment, though, you use "gender" to mean "sex" in your second paragraph. They're actually two different things. One's sex is dependent on the hormonal and physical sexual characteristics; it is linked to chromosomal sex, but not exactly the same -- intersexed individuals complicate the line between "male" sex and "female" sex because they have a sex of chromosomes that doesn't fit into the strict "xx" or "xy" categories, in some cases they may have primary/secondary sexual characteristics from both sexes.

Gender, however, is a combination of the sex one feels oneself to be (male, female, neither, both) and the social construction of gender roles. Oftentimes one feels oneself to be the gender that correlates to one's physical sex, but not always. In the case of intersexed individuals, it's not always clear what one's physical sex is, and in the case of transgendered individuals, one's physical sex is in some way at odd's with the person's conception of their gender.

Does that make sense? It may seem to be a small point, but it's very important when examining issues such as gender representation in games.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	asininehazel 2006-04-09 06:13 am UTC (link)
	No, I completely agree, and that's why I wanted your input. I'm still a beginner when it comes to the right words. I'm going to have to re-read what you said, but that is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you ^^! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tekanji
2006-04-09 06:20 am UTC (link)

You seem to be doing pretty well from what I can see :)

The kinds of things I'm talking about are still not mainstream, so a lot of people don't really know that there's a difference between sex, gender, and gender roles, much less why there's a difference.

I only really discovered a lot of this kind of stuff when I was in my first year of university, and then it shocked me when some of my "friends" thought that trans people were okay to ridicule simply because they were different. Since then I've been really interested in being a good ally and helping to educate non-trans people about these issues.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

asininehazel
2006-04-09 06:26 am UTC (link)

I am in my first year of college and taking a Women's Literature Course has opened me to new avenues of things I didn't know existed.

I understand the definitions behind gender and sex before, and now better defined by your explanation, but about Transgender I don't here a lot of issues from. The only information I get about Trans is from an online comic called Venus Envy.

Speaking of Transgender, has there been a report done that can give a number to how many transgender people there are? I don't know if it is a small number, or a bigger population that has to hide.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	kanaetkassad 2006-04-09 07:53 pm UTC (link)
	"and nearly choked when I saw a quotation from Bush, "I will ban abortion." !!!!:P i think my icon says it all:P (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	asininehazel 2006-04-09 10:21 pm UTC (link)
	LOL Thank you Will, you can always count on him to find the perfect words. Niiiiice choice Kanae ^^ (Reply to this)(Parent)

	badgerbag 2006-04-09 08:27 am UTC (link)
	Right on!!! and rant on! (Reply to this)

	librisia 2006-04-09 12:39 pm UTC (link)
	Testify! I am with you 100%. This is also why I don't play video games anymore. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	librisia 2006-04-09 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	I also think that if y'all are serious about this, a boycott of Bethesda might be in order. I posted a comment on the Geeky Feminist's blog. Take your games by Bethesda back to the store and tell them why you want a refund. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	grim_chook 2006-04-09 12:53 pm UTC (link)
	Interesting points. (Reply to this)

	moosetoss 2006-04-09 11:52 pm UTC (link)
	In response to that, I've noticed most male characters in games are also very marginalized. However, the games are more often than not ported from Japan. A lot of guys when asked if they liked Dante's new design from Devil May Cry were a little uncomfortable, while most girls were like 'OH HELL YEAH! :D' (Reply to this)

tikae
2006-04-09 11:55 pm UTC (link)

Interesting, but I have trouble with the addition of privilege to the discussion.

Gaming enough to identify oneself as a "gamer" is a privileged activity - it requires time, money, and effort. Playing Oblivion, a game with a claimed over 500 hours of playtime and insane system requirements, is quite privileged - I just spent $700 upgrading my computer so that I can play newly released games at decent settings. Having time to analyze Oblivion's gender representation on the internet is extremely privileged. The defend-Oblivion-at-all-costs dudes are jerks, ES fans often are, but I'd rather call them jerks than bring up privilege when I'm already dripping with it.

In any case, the gender representation within Oblivion is inconsistent enough that I'm pretty sure the developers never discussed it with each other. I could do a whole new post on it. The stats are set up in such a way that the vast majority of character builds would be better off as male than as female - strength is better than endurance and infinitely better than charisma. There are a few ridiculous female stereotypes, but Bethesda isn't exactly about, how do I say this... having the ability to write interesting characters at all.

And 11/21 of the master trainers, the most skilled people in the entire country for whatever skill they have, are female. 4/7 of the mage guild leaders are female, as is the Fighter's Guild leader. Less-powerful NPCs aren't overlooked, either - women are random & unimportant soldiers, mages, blacksmith, and innkeepers. Only the Imperial Guard is all male, and I'm pretty sure they're all the same model - lazy, there. Armor is not absurd for female characters, to the extent that male players have complained on the forums that their fighter in full plate doesn't seem to have a "woman's body," which I guess means enormous breasts spilling over the edges of her sexy plate.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

tekanji
2006-04-10 08:09 am UTC (link)

Gaming as a privileged activity in no way invalidates that the ability for male gamers to dismiss (and, indeed, verbally abuse) women [gamers] is a direct function of their male privilege. For instance, I am a white person. I, therefore, have white privilege. However, if I'm calling a bunch of white heterosexuals on their heterosexual privilege, the fact that all of us have white privilege doesn't negate their use of another kind of privilege.

Does that make sense?

And please do write a post on Oblivious... I mean Oblivion :) I haven't played the game myself, but it's been really interesting to read the different people's takes on the representation of gender in the game.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	wussycat 2006-04-10 09:00 am UTC (link)
	Yes, male gamers can dismiss and verbally abuse female gamers. But you can do the same to us. It's not a privilege. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tekanji
2006-04-10 09:03 am UTC (link)

Are you not familiar with what 'privilege' means in this context? Participating in a feminist gaming community, you really should familiarize yourself with the terms.

The privilege comes from men being the group with the power, and with the ability to use that power to oppress women. The same is true for white people, heterosexual people, non-trans people, able bodied people, etc.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	wussycat 2006-04-10 09:06 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, men have the power. That's why we can't win custody battles. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tekanji
2006-04-10 09:21 am UTC (link)

This is a feminist community, if you want to talk about how the system disadvantages men then to go

phmt. It is highly disrespectful of you to come into this kind of space and expect to be taken seriously without actually bothering to educate yourself on what terms mean. Until you're ready to act like a proper guest in a women's forum, I have nothing further to say to you.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	wussycat 2006-04-10 09:28 am UTC (link)
	You aren't using the terms properly. You feminists have made up your own meanings to these terms. You can call a mouse an elephant, but it's still a mouse. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tikae 2006-04-10 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	Aw, I knew that you've never met a feminist community you didn't want to troll, but I figured I'd give you a chance anyway. Chance over. FIRST BANN!!!@@@ (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tekanji 2006-04-10 09:12 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks :) I've decided that anyone who invokes the “What About the Mens?” Phallusy loses at the internet. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tikae 2006-04-10 11:27 pm UTC (link)
	Aw, I'm pretty sure he's just a robot programmed to seek out LJ communities with "feminist" and "feminism" in the title, then randomly generate MRA nonsense. Hilariously, this even includes anti_feminism, where we're the featured community of the day! (Reply to this)(Parent)

tikae
2006-04-11 03:56 am UTC (link)

Sure, it's a technically valid label, but when I'm already shoulder-deep in privilege I don't feel there's much of a point in mentioning that someone else is neck-deep.

The representation of gender as such isn't really a big deal in the Oblivion world as opposed to the meta-world: overall it's pretty positive or ignorable. If I finish the game - the main plot, at least - I'll post a writeup.

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	tikae 2006-04-11 03:57 am UTC (link)
	Okay, I just used the privilege-as-liquid analogy twice. Yay for consistency. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tekanji
2006-04-11 10:31 am UTC (link)

By your logic, there shouldn't be any ally work; since white people are so steeped in privilege, there's no point in mentioning that another white person is privileged. I mean, I don't think you're trying to say that our privileges negate any possibility for discussion/calling out of privilege ever... but that's sort of what it sounds like. I fail to see how that's at all useful in advancing equal rights/status for disadvantaged groups.

We need allies helping to educate those in their group about what privilege means (and hopefully encouraging those people to become good allies themselves) and we need people in the non-privileged group standing up and rejecting the privileged acts. How is that supposed to be achieved if we can't call one another on privilege?

Think about it this way: different kind of privileges are linked, but they are in no way the same. Being a woman doesn't exempt me from white privilege, and therefore I need to be called on it if I step out of line and say/do something racist. I'm not going to complain if it's a black man doing it, although if he exercises his male privilege in the process of calling me on my shit, I will bring that up. And, assuming in the hypothetical situation I did call said black man on his male privilege, that wouldn't negate my use of privilege (or the other way around), because both privileges coexist in similar but separate spaces. Just because we both would have needed to be called on something doesn't mean that it's better just to not say anything at all. Does that make sense?

It's complicated, for sure, but it's necessary to cross examine our privileges and not let the fact that everyone's privileged in some way put the breaks on meaningful dialogue.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

wussycat
2006-04-10 04:27 am UTC (link)

The poster above pointed out that male characters have better strength and endurance, but the female characters have better charisma.

Think about it this way: Let's say you have a female character with average strength and endurance, and you fight with a male character that has better strength and endurance than you. If you're able to beat him with a good strategy, then that would make you as good as or better than the stronger male characters. Isn't that better than being able to make your female character physically tougher?

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	tikae 2006-04-10 04:59 am UTC (link)
	No, because you're still being punished for playing female. That shouldn't happen in the first place. Also, Oblivion doesn't have a hell of a lot of strategy. It pretty strongly comes down to stats and reflexes. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	bulletproof81 2006-04-10 07:27 am UTC (link)
	Actually, if you check the statistics; in only one race does male characters have better strength by default. In every single case, males and females are equal except in one statistic and it always adds up in the end. It is entirely misleading to say female characters are weaker. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tikae
2006-04-10 07:02 pm UTC (link)

I have checked the statistics, I have played the game, and here's how it breaks down:

Argonians: M Agility Bonus, F Intelligence Bonus
Bretons: M Strength Bonus, F Speed Bonus
Dark Elves: M Endurance Bonus, F Personality Bonus
High Elves: M Endurance Bonus, F Speed Bonus
Imperial: M Speed Bonus, F Willpower Bonus
Khajit: M Strength Bonus, F Endurance Bonus
Nord: M Endurance Bonus, F Willpower Bonus
Orc: M Willpower/Personality Bonus, F Int Bonus
Redguard: M Strength Bonus, F Personality Bonus
Wood Elf: M Endurance Bonus, F Personality Bonus

And here’s what they mean, in theory and in practice:

Strength: Oblivion is a single-player, dungeon-heavy game with no party members and few ways to lighten your load, and so strength is immensely important for hauling your loot out of dungeons. Or for even carrying stuff around in the first place - my character has over 190 pounds just carrying her light armor, two weapons and a staff, and several potions. Governs melee damage as well.

Endurance: Pretty important - determines stamina, HP, and two very good skills (Block, which is useful to most characters, and Heavy Armor, which isn’t).

Intelligence: Most characters will take at least one magic skill, so it doesn’t hurt to have more mana. Not very important for characters who won't cast more than basic spells, or who won't cast spells at all. Governs two magic schools and Alchemy.

Willpower: Regenerates magic more quickly. Great for mages, less important for characters who won’t be casting many spells, more important than intelligence for characters who don't cast high-level spells. Governs three magic schools.

Agility: Great for thieves & archers, governs the amazingly powerful skill of Sneak, helps prevent knockback in some obscure way.

Speed: It’s nice for anyone to be able to run away, but given that the NPCs level like you do, I didn’t notice any real difference until I got up to over 80 in this stat. Governs light armor and the ultimately meaningless acrobatics & athletics skills.

Personality: Flat-out the most useless stat in the game. It governs illusion (worst school of magic until very high levels), speechcraft (almost entirely useless), and mercantile (kinda useful, but not compared to most other things). I've opened exactly zero additional paths with my high speechcraft ability, and I'd make more money selling items if I were strong enough to carry even a little more stuff out of dungeons.

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	bulletproof81 2006-04-11 06:55 am UTC (link)
	I was reading some of the official strategy guide over the weekend which contradicts what you are saying. I don't have access to it right now but as soon as I can get my hands on it I will gladly share the stats it comes out with. Only on Nords do men have a greater strength than in women. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tekanji
2006-04-10 09:05 pm UTC (link)

You should feel special: Guilded Lily, the woman who originally wrote on the stats, read this post and took the liberty of scanning the relevant part of the prima guide just for you.

She had this to say:

I thought it might help to be able to reference the actual stats - specifically since bulletproof81 was incorrect in saying that the strength attribute was different between genders for only one race (it's actually 3 races).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	bulletproof81 2006-04-11 06:58 am UTC (link)
	I'll have to check my copy of the guide and I will gladly apologise if I am wrong! I was reading them with interest because I usually have about five characters, some male and some female. Damn. Well, I have to say I am quite surprised, and quite quite wrong. So I have no problem retracting what I said. Actually, considering what I am reading I'd be a bit pissed too. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tekanji
2006-04-10 08:17 am UTC (link)

The point isn't, at least with my argument, about whether or not sexism/gender inequities exist in the game.

My point is that when feminist women gamers brought up their issues with the game on their own blog, and male gamers got a wiff of it, suddenly it was open season on women.

Suddenly any woman who has a problem with the game is "ridiculous" or is subject to insults (oh, excuse me, "jokes") like insinuating that all we do is have "panty/tickle fights". What it amounts to is using verbal abuse to shut us out of the greater gaming community.

And that is what I'm sick of. People should have a right to their analysis without being shamed in such personal, and horrible ways. The men are childish, mean-spirited, and this whole bullshit reeks of the "boy's club" mentality that I fucking hate in the gaming community.

If I sound a little hostile towards you, well, I am. I am not very pleased that you went for a nicer version of the same tactic that these men used (ie. dismissing the possibility of sexism) when that wasn't even the point I was addressing.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	wussycat 2006-04-10 08:55 am UTC (link)
	Oh, sorry. I do agree that they were ignorant jerks. Personally, I don't mind if a woman complains about sexism in something, as long as she knows what she's talking about. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

tekanji
2006-04-10 09:07 am UTC (link)

And you, the man, are able to discern The Truth. [/sarcasm] Honestly, though, do you realize how condesending it is to say "I don't mind... as long as she knows what she's talking about"? Hint: very much so.

If you had actually read more in depth what one of the two feminist bloggers I had linked to, you would have realized that the one addressing that particular concern did, in fact, talk about why the stats difference was not, in fact, a zero sum game.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	wussycat 2006-04-10 09:14 am UTC (link)
	Not all feminists who make an anti-sexism entry have a good argument. Haven't you read any of the entries in feminist? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rb13 2006-04-10 11:04 pm UTC (link)
	I dislike Kotaku commenters. The Kotaku editorial staff should also act more like journalists instead of making it a tabloid blog. (Reply to this)

itsmrwilson
2006-04-18 12:57 pm UTC (link)

Hey feminist gamers!

I'm more of a tabletop gamer than a console one, but I'm bummed to hear about gender essentialism in Oblivion.

I recently did some research on privilege for my personal gaming blog, and anyone who's interested might dig this article by Peggy Macintosh about some examples of white privilege. A few of them don't perfectly apply to gender, but it was a good tool for me in exploring facets of my own male privilege and when trying to knock sense into the heads of my fellow tabletoppers. Ironically, the article is written by a feminist who was using feminist theory to talk about race stuff. I just translated it back.

Hope that's useful.

-Matt

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	tekanji 2006-04-18 01:08 pm UTC (link)
	If you're interested in privilege, I would highly recommend the "check your privilege" embedded link in my original post. It's goes to a rather extensive treatise on (male) privilege. It's my blog, and I also have an entire section of links devoted to understanding privilege. It's pretty easy to find on the sidebar. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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