feminist_101: Question about Feminist authors.

Kipling's Cat (

mintogrubb) wrote in

feminist_101,
@ 2008-01-07 22:53:00

Question about Feminist authors.
My mother once gave me a copy of 'The War Against Women ' by Marilynne French, also 'The Female Eunuch' by you-know-who. she also got a copy of the Motherpeace Tarot during her trip into New Age philosophy.

Ok, all this was a while back. I am just wondering if there are any books written by women who have had positive relationships with men?

Have any Feminist writers ever come out with any statements affirming their fathers/sons/brothers or any other man they knew as being a good person?

If so, what books or papers were these in, please?

(Post a new comment)

	fshk 2008-01-07 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	The first thing that came to mind was I know that Gloria Steinem wrote a fair amount about heterosexual marriage and men when she got married (I remember reading at least one article in Ms. back in 2001 or 2002). I will think on this more and see what I can come up with. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mintogrubb 2008-01-07 11:30 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you. I may google her for quotes and see what comes up. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	__ephemera 2008-01-07 11:59 pm UTC (link)
	I can't help feeling that, coming from you, this is a loaded question. But whatever, I'll bite. Naomi Wolf wrote a little about positive relationships between men and women - I believe it was in 'Fire With Fire'. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	__ephemera 2008-01-08 12:03 am UTC (link)
	That, by the way, was in response to your second question. The first is pretty obvious. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kekekekekekeke 2008-01-08 12:44 am UTC (link)
	lol oh minto (Reply to this) (Thread)

	shemale 2008-01-08 12:58 am UTC (link)
	iawtc (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	mintogrubb 2008-01-08 01:02 am UTC (link)
	a lot of initials, even for a feminist writer... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	shemale 2008-01-08 01:21 am UTC (link)
	But not even the agreeable iawtc would think you're a good person ;_; (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	mintogrubb 2008-01-08 08:27 am UTC (link)
	this is her problem . Right now , I am working on my mother. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	daddysambiguity 2008-01-08 06:06 am UTC (link)
	I am so confused. Is this a troll? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	shemale 2008-01-08 06:11 am UTC (link)
	I wish. Have examples; there's obvs so, so many more, but since I made those posts they're the most quickly accessible for me. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	daddysambiguity 2008-01-08 08:37 am UTC (link)
	Strange. His profile information seems relatively normal, saying that he is a feminist and whatnot. I am soooo behind on everything! LOL. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	raeheezy 2008-01-08 12:46 am UTC (link)
	Oh dears. In before wank? Or am I too late? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mintogrubb 2008-01-08 01:01 am UTC (link)
	far too late. Camille Paglia defines herself as a feminist ... And, Christina Hoff Summers is very sympathetic to men and again, she defines herself as a feminist. I believe Kate Millett also... not from here - Bad Feminists gave me those... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	raeheezy 2008-01-08 01:04 am UTC (link)
	I do not think I meant what you think I meant. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	shemale 2008-01-08 01:15 am UTC (link)
	By the time minto's posted you're already a good five minutes too late to get in befofap fap fap (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lucullean 2008-01-08 01:27 am UTC (link)
	wife. silence. let us await the fap fap fap with gr8 reverence. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	shemale 2008-01-08 01:36 am UTC (link)
	sry i forgot my place :( (Reply to this) (Parent)

	raeheezy 2008-01-08 04:33 am UTC (link)
	That's precisely what I meant in my initial comment, although I said it in a very ass backwards way. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	lucullean 2008-01-08 01:07 am UTC (link)
	the fuck? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mintogrubb 2008-01-08 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	Is that a book, film or stage play? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	daddysambiguity 2008-01-08 06:06 am UTC (link)
	You could read Stiffed by Susan Faludi. It's not about any personal men that she knows in her own life, but it's kind of the backstory to how men got to the mindset they currently have in the U.S. It's really great. I'm a grad student with an interest in feminism, but tend to study men from a feminist perspective. I loved the book. (Reply to this) (Thread)

mintogrubb
2008-01-08 08:32 am UTC (link)

tiffed is already read. yes, analysis agreed with, however, that is not gonna help here.
situation as follows:
my mother is not just a Feminist, she is Anti men as a lifestyle choice.

Like most women in her position , she is in denial about a lot of stuff.
yeah , she has lots of ammo to hurl at me about how crap men are, b/cos most men are running a crap system for theirr own benifit.

Howevs, my case is that some feminists who are women even , have actually met decent blokes and said so.

So, "who are they and what did they say?" is very llikely her first response. hence I am here doing my homework.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	daddysambiguity 2008-01-08 08:36 am UTC (link)
	Ah. Ok. I am sure what you are looking for exists, but am not sure where. Men, on an individual level, are not the problem. Hopefully, you can find the resources to convince your mom. Good luck. (Reply to this) (Parent)

metahara
2008-01-08 05:56 pm UTC (link)

Well, lucky for your mother and apparently un lucky for you, she lives in a country that allows her an opinion of her own, even on about males.

Lucky for you, you live in a coutry that allows you to work on yourself and your own issues.

Good luck with that.

For general info: Too many feminists have said loving things about males they love, care for, know or know of to list.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

mintogrubb
2008-01-08 08:24 pm UTC (link)

Too many feminists have said loving things about males they love, care for, know or know of to list.

" Woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle", you mean? Gloria Stienham, was it?

Ok, if there are so many and these are so obvious, just gimme one. one, you hear - that is all I ask. I mean , an actual citeable quote, like what I just gave you. ok, it is attributed to GS, but she says some teacher in Oz gave it to her.

But one pro male quote, just one, from so many you claim to be aware of. Can you actually deliver on that?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	metahara 2008-01-08 08:40 pm UTC (link)
	"Ok, if there are so many and these are so obvious, just gimme one. " No, but, thanks for the opportunity. I'm finished communicating with you now. Again, I wish you Good Luck! (Reply to this) (Parent)

metahara
2008-01-08 05:57 pm UTC (link)

Well, lucky for your mother (apparently un- lucky for you) she lives in a country that allows her an opinion of her own, even on about males.
Lucky for you, you live in a country that allows you to work on yourself and your own issues first.

Good luck with that.

For general info: Too many feminists have said loving things about males they love, care for, know or know of to list.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	daddysambiguity 2008-01-08 06:07 am UTC (link)
	Or what about books written by feminist men affirming other men? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mintogrubb 2008-01-08 08:32 am UTC (link)
	Does not count. gotta be women about men. (Reply to this) (Parent)

penguingod
2008-01-13 11:00 am UTC (link)

May I ask why?

I don't think I've encountered your alleged jackassery before, though I wouldn't be likely to remember if I have, given that this is LiveJournal (it's hard for me to care enough). I don't really care, though.

I'm new to this whole feminism thing, I'll admit that, but it seems pretty silly for so many guys (and a few women) to criticize feminist critiques like they're actually doing harm. There are bigger fish to fry than some allegedly pissed off women, such as the inability of so many men to differentiate between humans with a penis and the Man image that so many of those penis-having humans are crafted into (the source of the cryptozoological "man-hating feminist" legend).

Men face more harm from patriarchy than feminists (even the really militant ones). Women face more harm from patriarchy than men. Anyway, isn't white men thinking that their opinion is as or more relevant than women and minorities part of the problem?

I don't know you. I'll likely forget who you are within a day. Right now, I see you. Right now, you are part of the problem. If I can see that, as wet behind the ears as I am regarding feminism, what's your excuse?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mintogrubb
2008-01-13 11:22 am UTC (link)

Right now, you are part of the problem. If I can see that, as wet behind the ears as I am regarding feminism, what's your excuse?

Before I answer your question at the start of your OP, I want to point out that you are 'framing the debate' here.

You say " you are part of the Problem'.
that is not actually the case, from My POV.
and what is my " excuse".
No, my opinion is not an 'excuse' for anything.

Whenever a woman makes a legitimate complain , someone will accuse her of 'whining' as a way of taking away the legitimacy of her argument.

It does seem to me that you are trying to play the same kinda trick here.
so, no - this is not an 'excuse'. It's a POV as valid as anyone else's.

I think that part of the answer to the problem (and I have a different take on what The problem is, don't forget) is that feminism is not wholly owned by people who all agree.
There are Gender Feminists and Equality Feminists.

I tend to side with the equality feminists myself, even more so that when i first posted this. I will leave it there for now. if you want further clarification , please come back to me on it. but try not to back me into a corner by the use of language that frames the whole debate from your own perspective. I've been around this sorta thinking before and it don't work on me.

Edited at 2008-01-13 11:22 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

penguingod
2008-01-13 11:31 am UTC (link)

Given that you enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, and as a result, lack the day-to-day experiences with it that inform the opinions of feminists, I think it's safe to say that your opinion, your point of view, is not (as) valid. It's exactly that kind of thinking on the part of men (and some women) that causes so much discord.

I fully anticipate a response stating that my point of view is equally invalid for the same reasons, but this is not the case, because this isn't really my point of view. As a daily benefactor of male privilege, lucky enough to possess some modicum of objectivity, I know that I don't know anything about the issues faced by women. I listen to them, I consider what they have to say. When something really offends me, really pisses me off, I listen more intently, consider for longer.

What I said is that which I have picked up from different camps within the broader "feminist ideology," not my personal point of view. My personal point of view is not relevant to these issues. Call it backing you into a corner if you like, but it seems to me that people from all over the spectrum don't like what you have to say all that much regarding issues of feminism. Maybe all of those people have some idea of what they're talking about.

Just consider it. What can it hurt (ego doesn't count)?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

mintogrubb
2008-01-13 12:16 pm UTC (link)

Ok, lets start with what some women have told me.

Some women (not all) have said that Christana Hoff Sommers, like all Equality Feminists, is not a *real* feminist. Other women I know have returned that compliment back to the Gender Feminist crowd in spades.

To them, feminism is not about "playing the victim card and getting special treatment" - their words not mine.

Ok, some women say "it isn't my job to educate you", others have said " take a look at the Male Priv Checklist".

Now, I have seen the Checklist and realise more than I did when I had not seen it. I therefore favour the 'educating other people' approach.

As for people 'across the spectrum', can I ask if that includes E-fems , or don't they count with you? and Like, if gender fems want to flag up something specific, I am willing to talk and to reason, and even change my POV where I see the need to. But they ought to acknowledge that not all women , even agree with their demands.

Not every feminist wants to go out and smash capitalism. some do - but some don't. so, if you ant to talk on that basis about anything, I shall be back later tonight.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

penguingod
2008-01-13 12:36 pm UTC (link)

Feminists can criticize other feminists for how they go about things. Men can shut the hell up, listen, and help by educating other men. It's not our place to question the efficacy of feminists as a whole, the differences within, how they interact with each other, et cetera.

Equality feminists, gender feminists, anti-feminists, and all the rest of them can fight over who is or isn't doing things right. The foundations of their arguments with each other are of a nature that can only be experienced directly; men can't know the troubles of women, as whites can't know the troubles of minorities. It's incumbent upon us, as benefactors of the oppressors, to consider what the oppressed say, and pass on whatever we can to other benefactors in whichever ways we feel are effective for the situation at hand.

It just seems like you're missing the point. I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I apologize if I'm failing at that; I quit smoking two days ago and am forgoing sleep last night, and I got an eviction notice yesterday. There's plenty of possibility of it. =)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

mintogrubb
2008-01-13 06:02 pm UTC (link)

It just seems like you're missing the point. I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I apologize if I'm failing at that; I quit smoking two days ago and am forgoing sleep last night, and I got an eviction notice yesterday. There's plenty of possibility of it. =)

Good luck with the packing up smoking bit. If you persevere, it will be worth it, I assure you. Sorry to here about the eviction notice - i have lost my home twice at too short a notice, i know what a bummer it can be . maybe this is not the best time to have a debate on an issue where I have got my stuff to deal with and you have got immediate and more pressing concerns.

However, if you want to devote some time to it as a means of taking your mind off niciotine, look at it this way:-

I am not a Marxist, or communist. however, as one person on this planet , I have an opinion on Marxism. Feminism can also be viewed as an ideology/ belief system, just like Marxism is. you don't have to hold a party card to agree/disagree with any of the writers/ members within it.

feminists who want to make the world a better place are going to have to talk to men at some point. i don't see the whole thing about oppressor/ oppressed as being a black and white thing. several times a day, I go from being one of the 'oppressed' to an 'oppressor' and then back again depending on the situation. every time I buy something , I make a political choice for or against the status quo.

The man who is homeless/ jobless/ marginalised for being poor/ elderly or whatever knows the experience better than a man or woman who has not been through that problem themselves. there are experiences that are unique to women ( like childbirth), but I believe that more unites us than divides us.

And yeah, if a dialogue is to open , then it does help to inform the other group what your POV is, rather than insist that you are not there to educate them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

penguingod
2008-01-14 12:48 pm UTC (link)

The bourgeoisie lack the experience of the proletariat, as they are the benefactors of the ruling class, and thus, are granted the privilege to go through life without concern for the plight of the proletariat, among numerous other benefits. They generally side against the proletariat because doing so would endanger that privilege, though they generally pretty it up in propaganda and straw men.

It is possible for a member of the upper class to recognize the plight of the lower class, work to understand it, and work against the source of it. It takes work, though. Indoctrination is stubborn as hell.

It's not about not talking, it's about respect. To put it slightly differently, benefactors of the ruling class are denied the context for sympathy and understanding, and thus, are entering into the fight against oppression with a handicap. It would be like me caddying for a few weeks at a local municipal course, and suddenly thinking that I'm qualified to question the judgment of Tiger Woods or Vijay Singh on the green.

Talk, just remember that your opinion doesn't really mean all that much on those topics. The victims of oppression are better equipped to understand it than the benefactors of oppression, even if the benefactors have faced some hardship as a byproduct (we are collateral damage, not the target).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

mintogrubb
2008-01-14 07:52 pm UTC (link)

The victims of oppression are better equipped to understand it than the benefactors of oppression, even if the benefactors have faced some hardship as a byproduct (we are collateral damage, not the target).

A while back, when I was first introduced to the idea of 'male privilege', I came up with the term 'the gradient of privilege'.

See, I am not as privileged as George W Bush, say. Last time I looked, I didn't have a swimming pool in my back yard. When I left school and went to work, the oloder men in the workplace did not shake my hand and welcome me as a fellow adult and member of the WHite Male Conspiracy. far from it, I was treated as the lowest of the low by men and women alike. ever come across the acronym FNG? As in 'Fucking New Guy'?

As I got older and moved on, I made up my mind that I wanted no part of this set up.
i decided to welcome the new guys , help them settle in and look after them. nothing big, nothing major - I just did what I could to help people who were were where i was a few years back.

now, in terms of how i was taught to treat the customers, it was all about
GIVE - appeal to
Greed
Insecurity
Vanity and
Ego.

That was how to sell stuff, I was told. however, I have my own way of doing things, and eventually got out of direct sales altogether.

I fight the system, but I do it my own way. I don't see political movements having the same clout as NGOs and exercising personal choices. As for only being collateral damage, I don't give a toss. The system needs to start people a lot better before it gets me on board - including me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

penguingod
2008-01-14 11:02 pm UTC (link)

Being a new guy in a workplace is not comparable to being a woman in a patriarchal society. I hope that you aren't insinuating such.

Sure, you lack the privilege of the upper class. So do I. We still have white privilege and male privilege. We aren't judged predominately by our physical attractiveness and willingness to show it off. We aren't profiled by the police.

The lower class is oppressed. Minorities are oppressed. Women are oppressed. People of differing gender / sexuality identities from the typical binary system are oppressed. Falling into one of those categories does not invalidate the other categories. I may be poor as fuck, but I'm not going to get pulled over while driving white, and the fact that I'm overweight won't keep me from getting a job.

So long as you're working against "the bad guys," to put it simply, and you consider the ramifications and implications of your actions, do it how you will. Militant or violent, within the system or from the outside, collectivist or individualist. We need 'em all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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