lick_your_heart ([info]lick_your_heart) wrote in [info]feminist_101,
@ 2007-12-18 20:34:00
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fatphobia
So, I was going to post this on feminist (the community) but I'm worried that some of it will come off as fatphobic, and I also think that some of the questions are really basic, so this is sort of a test-run for the edited and more informed version I'd like to post later, with your help. 

...So.... I have been thinking about fatphobia quite a bit recently and have a long list of questions for the community:
1. what are acceptable ways to say "fat" ? I mean, Fat is a derrogatory term, and people who are trying to embrace their bodies certainly shouldn't be critiscised for disliking it, yes? I'm making an assumption here that "fat" is not an acceptable way to refer a person's size. Am i right/wrong?
"Overweight" and "heavy" seem stupid to me, because they imply that weight and size are the same thing, and sort of reinforce the anglo centric view of things that if you have naturally large hips, or big breasts, a different shaped stomach, etc, you weight too much.
If one is trying to embrace everyone's size as what makes each individual unique, how should one refer to "bigger" people?
Is there a term that big women prefer? If I'm saying anything amazingly stupid and offensive here, can someone let me know so I can change this post?
2. I come from a family of five, where my youngest brother and I are the only 2 people who don't have what our society likes to call "weight problems." My Mum gets a little bit worked up about this, believing that we're all going to have heart attacks at 25, and die. so, there have been a lot of comments on feminist recently about how "fat" isn't necessarily unhealthy, could I have some more information? as I've always been told the contrary it's a really promising sentiment, but it's also difficult to wrap my head around.
3. I've been thinking about whether or not I'm fatphobic. I know I don't judge people by their size, because of my family it's not something I really see. I also understand that people have a lot of reasons to be overweight, given that we eat very healthy food, and excercise but still can't become "skinny", so I have no problem with size. However, after reading a lot of recent posts I noticed something about myself; despite the fact that I like to think I am not vain, I am largely disinterested in fashion, don't wear heels, pluck eyebrows, shave etc.. (not necessarily as a statement, more because I don't want to and don't see the need.) However, I am terrified of putting on weight. Is this a type of Fat phobia? me saying "I love big people, I just don't want to be one", or is it just me recognising that my weight gives me privelige that makes my life easier than the lives of others?
4. what do people think of songs like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89GB7z_Ogt0 ? ("big girl you are beautiful"- Mika)
This one in particular, but also other similar songs, such as "i like big butts" ? I personally loved this song initially, I thought lines like " a whole lot of woman needs a whole lot more" didn't seem sarcastic, but empowering. however, I noticed that none of his other video clips (that I have seen) contain women of size, so is it just a publicity stunt? Do items of popular culture like this, that challenge the stereotypes actually help, or do they just make us all feel like we're over our prejudices, so we don't have to confront them? (did that make sense?)

thanks very much.




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[info]goodlookinout
2007-12-18 08:16 pm UTC (link)
1. Fat is a derrogatory term, and people who are trying to embrace their bodies certainly shouldn't be critiscised for disliking it, yes? I'm making an assumption here that "fat" is not an acceptable way to refer a person's size. Am i right/wrong?

Wrong. Fat is only a derogatory term if you're starting from a place of fatphobia, where it is seen as bad and as a negative. "Fat" is simply a descriptor with no values behind it - it is society that places values onto it.

how should one refer to "bigger" people?

How about just as people? An not as some abnormal entity to be "referred to" or discussed.

2. Do some research. Hell, even on google you can come up with a lot of resources. Google "obesity myth" or fatphobia or any other variation.

There have been LOTS of entries on feminist over the past few years. Check back some pages.

Also check out bigfatblog.

I have to leave work now so I cant address the rest of your post now.

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[info]lick_your_heart
2007-12-18 08:22 pm UTC (link)
thanks.

also: "how should one refer to "bigger" people?

How about just as people? An not as some abnormal entity to be "referred to" or discussed."

sorry, that came out wrong, it was just a summary of my question.

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[info]briarwood
2007-12-18 08:32 pm UTC (link)
I'm making an assumption here that "fat" is not an acceptable way to refer a person's size. Am i right/wrong?

Depends on how it's meant. This is something that will vary a lot by culture, and by that I mean even within the same country. Speaking as someone who is most definitely fat, I don't like the word because it was the most common insult when I was a teen: fat, fatty, fatso... I hate "obese" because it's the word the medical profession uses to deny me treatment. I swear if I broke my leg some doc would tell me I've got to lose weight before they can set the bone. I'd prefer "overweight" or simply "big". But I know a few people who would be offended by either of those. There's no easy way.

there have been a lot of comments on feminist recently about how "fat" isn't necessarily unhealthy, could I have some more information? as I've always been told the contrary

I'm overweight. I'm not going to run any marathons, but I walk to and from work every day (three miles, all uphill on the return) without killing myself and can do it faster than my sister who is "thin". My cholesterol levels are fine. My salt levels are fine. I'm not diabetic, though that seems to run in my family. I don't get sick, other than occasional migraines (which aren't weight-related). I don't smoke and I rarely drink alcohol. Not saying I'm more healthy than someone half my weight, but I'm certainly not unhealthy. (And that 30-year-old fitness freak who drops dead from a heart attack out of the blue - not a myth. It's not common, but it happens. Low BMI and exercise are no guarantee of health.)

However, I am terrified of putting on weight. Is this a type of Fat phobia?

Speaking for myself: no. Fatphobia is about judging others based on their weight or body shape, not about what you want for yourself. There's an element of fatphobia in there, perhaps: I'd guess one reason you're "terrified" of being overweight is because of how you think others would view you if you were. That's internalised fatphobia, but saying you don't want to be overweight shouldn't offend someone who is.

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[info]jocelynxheart
2007-12-18 08:37 pm UTC (link)
Hmm... I'll do my best to say my piece about each of those points... though I am also full of questions and uncertain about answers...

1.) maybe we shouldn't use size as a way to address people? If we divide people into "skinny" and "fat", or "small" and "large" or "petite" and "healthy", or whatever terms we want to use, no matter how polite or well meaning we are in describing people who don't fit into the "petite" category, we're still creating an "us" and a "them", the very basic foundation of many varieties of discrimination. Then again, are there certain times/topics when it is appropriate to make that distinction??

2.) I have also always been told that more weight= less healthy, and though I don't have a lot of fact, I can give some examples of personal experience. My dad is extrememly skinny, and was put on a diet for having dangerously high cholesterol two years ago (he's gotten much better, and is no longer in the "danger of a heart attack" range). My mom, on the other hand, has always considered herself to be overweight, and always (erm... as long as I can remember) struggled with diets and exercise to try and lose pounds. She has recently had a tumor with two types of cancer in it removed from her lung, her left breast removed because of breast cancer, and a hysterectomy, which was also related to her breast cancer. Between her lung surgery and her hysterectomy, her doctor (my parents live in a very small town with the worst doctors I have ever met, so this likely wouldn't happen in many other places) told her that no further treatments could be done until she lost fifty pounds (a ridiculous amount of weight- my mom isn't even five feet tall, and is not that large). On a post-surgery check up in Winnipeg (the city that I live in, and the place my mom has her treatments), an ultra sound revealed that she had a tumor the size of a sixth month pregnancy in her uterus; which was 100% of the reason she couldn't lose weight. The reason that I bring up this particular story is that I can't help but think that some sort of fatphobia might have been the cause of her mistreatment by her doctor....

3.) As someone who has struggled with eating disorders for years, I can relate to this statement, thought I'm not sure what else to say. I think the media plays a huge role in this kind of mindset; our society (wrongly) values skinny women more, which is why people are fatphobic in the first place. In my case, I have never, ever felt pretty, and have always felt that being skinny is all that I have that makes me in any way attractive.... which is why I have struggled with the constant paranoia of losing that. This past year has been much better... but it still isn't easy. Is this a form of fatphobia? I think it certainly is. Can attitiudes of this sort be used to better understand fatphobia and learn not to be fatphobic? I think that understanding why people fear becoming fat might serve as a bit of glance at the shit that people who deal with fatphobia everyday have to deal with...

4.) I can't help but wonder if the song "I like big butts" helped to contribute to one of the current female "ideals", the "barbie" shaped lady... tiny tiny waist, huge boobs, large behind(???)

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[info]lick_your_heart
2007-12-18 10:43 pm UTC (link)
that was a really interesting and honest answer, thank you so much. in regards to "are there certain times/topics when it is appropriate to make that distinction??" I guess it's more that in posts like this I'd like to know what nouns to use in order to not assist the oppression that I'm trying to learn how to counteract. does that make sense?

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[info]leitch71
2007-12-18 08:45 pm UTC (link)
I'd rather be called "fat" all day long than listen to people hem and haw and fumble for whatever Euphemism is currently in favor, but that's really like asking if fat people like cheese.

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[info]daddysambiguity
2008-01-08 06:24 am UTC (link)
Killer icon! :)

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[info]rosehiptea
2007-12-18 09:07 pm UTC (link)
I mostly hear fat people use the term fat themselves, and I associate this with people reclaiming a term, but I don't have a problem with thin people using it either. Big and large are OK with me. I agree that their probably isn't a universal term but I actually haven't seen lots of arguments about whether fat or big is OK.

I agree that the internet and general and looking back through the archives at feminist, or other feminist blogs such as feministe, are your best bet for basic fat-positive information and facts on why fat =/= unhealthy.

Is being afraid of being a fat a form of fatphobia? I'd say yes, but it doesn't impact anyone but you, either, so I'm only saying it because you asked. (And simply liking yourself the way you look and not wanting to be much bigger I wouldn't call a form of fatphobia at all.) If that makes any sense. I do know people who are so afraid of being fat (or ashamed of being fat) that they end up saying offensive to things to me about it and it drives me nuts.

I haven't heard Mika's song and I'm not going to listen to it right this minute (no offense). I don't think songs about fat women being beautiful are bad, and I'm very fond of "Fat Bottomed Girls" myself, but I don't find them wonderful and affirming per se, especially when sung by thin men. (I saw a whole list of them online once though and put some together into a soundtrack, including "I Don't Want To Get Thin" by Sophie Tucker.)

I wouldn't say they make people feel we're "over our prejudices" because we're really obviously not over prejudice against fat people and most people don't even want to be over it. But I'm not sure how much they make anyone question stereotypes either.

edited for one word left out

Edited at 2007-12-18 09:08 pm UTC

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[info]bestdaywelived
2007-12-18 09:20 pm UTC (link)

1. Fat is only a descriptor. It's not really a negative word unless you th ink it is. Overweight isn't a good word because it implies that there is a "right" weight and a point that you can be over.

I think that "fat" is okay, although some people may be uncomfortable with it.


3. It can be fatphobic. It depends. If gaining weight means for you that you're not eating well or exercising, then it's not good. If you're terrified of gaining weight for appearance reasons, then you might be. It's something internalized.


4. I hate that song. It's so ... bad. I hate Mika, though.

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[info]blackplayground
2007-12-18 10:39 pm UTC (link)
fat isn't a derogatory term unless used/intended as one. the most acceptable way to say fat is fat. by trying to find other words you're saying that fat=bad or fat=shameful. there is nothing wrong with being fat, certanly nothing to be ashamed of.
not caring about yourself is unhealthy. not liking yourself is unhealthy. some people have bigger bodies not because they are unhealthy but because that is what they look like. there are probably some fat people who are unhealthy or endangering themselves. just like there are "skinny" people who are unhealthy. as a society we scream about the "obesity epidemic" (you yourself are part of this with your reference to weight problems, a weight problem is when you are so thin or so fat that you are going to kill yourself, that is the only weight problem i know of) and so some people who are fat put all their time and energy into over-exercising or under-eating, thus making themselves miserable when they shouldn't have to feel that way. fat does not equal unhealthy. unhealthy equals unhealthy.
not wanting to be fat means you feel there is something wrong with it. if you heard someone say "i don't want to be black, i'm really scared of being black" your reaction (hopefully) wouldn't be "oh that makes sense". it says you feel there is something wrong with being fat and that other people being fat is something you view as bad, even if you're not totally aware you feel that way. most likely it's because you've been programmed that way - despite being surrounded by people you describe as fat you've also been told by your mother that this is bad. none the less saying "I love big people, I just don't want to be one" is soooo patronising and demeaning and i would suggest you avoid remarks like that in the future.

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[info]baglieg
2007-12-19 05:56 am UTC (link)
I have seen the word zaftig used, which is apparently from the Yiddish for "juicy". As far as connotations go that's not to bad. However, there is no magic word that can stop people from getting offended; it's very contextual, and if they think you're paying them out then any word could sound demeaning.

I suspect Big Girl is an homage to Fat Bottomed Girls by Queen. In the unlikely circumstance that I'm right about this, it would mean that the song is about Mika being fruity as much as it is about big girls.

Baby Got Back (that's the name of the "I like big butts" song), on the other hand, is kind of a black power thing. It's about rejecting white-centric beauty standards and putting a positive valuation on the stereotype that black women have big butts. So it's radical in that sense. Unfortunately it is also a bit objectifying. Also also, lines like "little in the middle but she got much back" indicate that he preferred women with thin waists and big butts.

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[info]ditto_that
2007-12-19 06:31 am UTC (link)
1. As a fat person myself, I prefer that term. I hate, hate, hate the term overweight. Over what weight, exactly? To me, fat is only a bad word if the person using it means it to be an insult. I don't really like the term plus-size, either (plus what?), but it doesn't have that same aura of trying too hard to not be offensive that cutesy euphemisms like fluffy or bbw do.

2. Kate Harding at Shapely Prose did all the hard work for me. Seriously, this is required reading! Also, check out Junkfood Science and Big Fat Blog.

3. I'm pretty sure someone else already addressed internalized fatphobia above me, so I won't reiterate, but I will send you to Shapely Prose again. It's Not All About You (or Me)

4. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that Mika video. I don't like his music, it's not my style. I dig all the beautiful fat girls in pretty, sparkly clothes, but it did come off as cheesy novelty to me. "I Like Big Butts" was fun, but I agree with the poster above who pointed out that all it does is idealize another body type. He's pretty clear about preferring big butts, big boobs and an itty bitty waist.

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[info]ditto_that
2007-12-19 06:33 am UTC (link)
Uh, durr, I meant "Baby Got Back," not "I like big butts."

I'll focus next time.

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[info]lick_your_heart
2007-12-19 02:20 pm UTC (link)
I've been reading Kate Harding for about the last hour now, she's pretty muc hte cooldest thing ever. thanks

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[info]one_in_progress
2007-12-19 06:20 pm UTC (link)
For good information about health and weight, check out the "junk food science" blog. She writes about a lot of things, but debunking the fat/unhealthy thing is a recurring topic.

As far as being afraid of getting fat - I would call that internalized fat phobia. Sucks, eh?

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[info]trbulnt_spnstr
2007-12-20 10:29 pm UTC (link)
About the video: It's kind of upsetting to me in some ways and not in others. I think the main girls in the video that are walking behind him are not all that big, and one or two of them I'd consider relatively thin. Not skinny, but thin. I also don't like the idea of "curves in all the right places"-like who is he to tell me what the right places are? Or where curves should be?

At the same time I like that there's somebody saying that big girls are beautiful. My best friend is fat and when I think about how she'd feel about this video I think she'd have felt good about it in high school, (because she had lower self esteem about body image), but now she feels better about herself and that she'd be really frustrated about it. So I can see its up and down sides.

About 3: I think that does mean your fatphobic. I don't think saying "I love big people, I just don't want to be one," is ever really an appropriate statement to make out loud unless you're confiding in somebody. I know that I gain and lose muscle mass and that when I lose muscle mass I feel pretty bad about myself which I consider internalized fatphobia. It doesn't make sense to say that you're family has a variety of sizes included so you "have no problem with size"-that could add to you not wanting to gain weight actually. If you have heard family members complain about being made fun of then that could definitely make you not want to gain weight. I also agree with the other poster who said that there are so many media images that make women have a certain idea of what 'perfect' should be that it's hard to not have that idea effect us. It definitely effects me.

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[info]trbulnt_spnstr
2007-12-20 10:30 pm UTC (link)
I also wanted to say thank you for posting this in feminist101 rather than feminist. I think it was a very good idea! I also think it makes sense for you to ask for book or website recommendations here because this is the type of place to ask for those things in my opinion, (as well as the userinfo's if I'm not mistaken).

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[info]daddysambiguity
2008-01-08 06:21 am UTC (link)
Nice post. I don't think it was fatphobic, really.

FYI, though, recent research has shown that people a bit overweight are less likely to die from having a heart attack when compared to thin/average sized folks who have one. You could google it -- I don't have the source. :) It was all over the news, though.

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