Kelley ([info]kschap) wrote in [info]feminist_101,
@ 2007-12-16 05:51:00
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This is something I've been thinking about for a couple weeks or so now. I'm kind of scared to bring it up at all at the risk of sounding ignorant or transphobic or something like that. I do not believe I'm anything of the sort, and I really just want others' opinions on this so that I can think about it from different perspectives and come to some kind of conclusion, or something. Keep in mind I'm not entirely sure how to word what I'm getting at, so I'm hoping the comments will clarify some of my thoughts as well. If it's not an appropriate thing to post here, please, let me know. :)

I watched some sort of documentary show recently on the Discovery Health Channel about male-to-female transsexuals, and I noticed that the two or three who were interviewed for the show seemed to fulfill the "beauty stereotype": they had long hair, and they wore makeup, skirts, high-heels, typical "women's clothing". I remember also being struck by one of them getting coaching from a woman on "feminine behavior": how to cross your legs "like a woman," how to walk "like a woman," different mannerisms that women have, etc.

Now, I'm a cisgendered female. I don't think I'm a "typical" female, whatever that means, because I don't do a lot of things that our culture (I'm in the US) seems to think women "should" do; but I feel that I am a woman and feel no desire to identify as anything else. And I don't think that I do the above things. Or maybe it's just that they're so ingrained in me that I don't notice them, I'm not sure. But I was a bit... bothered that these trans people were going to such lengths to more fully become female. I don't think women need to wear dresses or otherwise dress provocatively to be female. (If they want to, that's fine.) I don't think women should have to wear makeup and shave every square inch of their bodies to be female. (If they want to, that's fine.) I think it's just a bunch of BS that society imposes on us, and I'm offended by that, and I'm offended on the behalf of these transwomen who think they have to do these things every day to be considered a woman. It should be what's in your heart that's important.

But I'm sure, being biologically female, that there are things I'm not taking into consideration here. Do they just go through these things in order to become more feminine, because they are THAT used to their male identities? Are they "overcompensating" for a lifetime of not having been physically what they felt they were supposed to be? Do they just feel they need every ounce of help they can get, in order to pass? Ultimately, do they think that all of these things are what make a woman?

Maybe they just like dresses and makeup, and that's totally fine with me. I just don't think these are things that necessarily have to be part of a woman's world... nor do I think they are JUST for women. You know?

*sigh* Hopefully that made sense to you all and didn't come off as totally boorish. Input is very much appreciated, and and links/books/other resources would be awesome, too. :)

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[info]chime
2007-12-16 05:39 pm UTC (link)
I think the degree to which a transwoman feels societal pressure to be that 'feminine' varies from individual to individual... as it does for genetic/cisgendered/politicallycorrectwordoftheweek women, for that matter.

In my observation, older transwomen in particular seem to think that they've gotta do all these things that society perceives as ultra-feminine. Not surprising, since they're hit from two ends--firstly they're accustomed to more rigidly defined roles for femininity in society than us younger folk have grown up with in the 80s/90s/00s etc, and secondly, they grew up in a time when transsexuality itself wasn't really talked about, and was even less accepted than it is now (which it still isn't, much!)

Younger ones, not as much, although there're still a few. (The only younger transwoman I've talked to for any length of time IRL was a short-haired pants-wearer. She still looked completely "passable," though!)

Some transwomen feel the need to prove themselves as legitimately female. What defines a person as a woman, anyway? I think most people in western society would agree with Salma Hayek's character in Dogma, that it falls between two things: her legs. This isn't entirely accurate when it comes to MTFs, though, (or FTMs for that matter), since even pre-ops who live as women are arguably legitimately women too! Some people out there go even further and suggest that XX chromosomes define being female. So transwomen think--some of them do--that in order to demonstrate their femininity they need to go that extra mile, in order to 'count' as a woman. Cisgendered women, on the other hand, are automatically women regardless of how they dress or act! (Unless , of course, they're FTM.)

And some of them just plain like doing it.

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[info]jocelynxheart
2007-12-16 05:59 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps it has to do with the same sorts of things that make some biological women act ultra "feminine" and others not? For instance, I have short hair, never wear makeup, don't shave the majority of places on my body very often, and wear skirts maybe twice a year, and I still consider myself (as do most of the people I associate with- unless they just haven't told me) to be "feminine". On the other hand, if I ask my (also) female friends about their makeup habits, for example, I usually get responses such as "I don't feel right without makeup"; which are totally beyong my own understanding of the function of makeup, but is, in the end, a personal preference.

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[info]metahara
2007-12-16 06:02 pm UTC (link)
Good, thoughtful question that there probably is not one answer to.
I think jocelynxheart is onto something...

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[info]lotus82
2007-12-16 07:37 pm UTC (link)
That sure is interesting, and I'll be coming back to read comments.
My only experience with MtF individuals is a good friend of mine, who transitioned 4 years ago. She's always been a jeans-and-Tshirts-and-a-ponytail kind of girl. She's totally passable - in fact, when she first told me she's trans, I said I had no idea she felt she's a boy and it took her a while to convince me that no, she was born as one - but she's just not that girly-girly stereotype.

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[info]sophiaserpentia
2007-12-16 09:16 pm UTC (link)
The media does not present an accurate, unbiased portrayal of transwomen. Julia Serano wrote an excellent essay about this bias called "Skirt Chasers" which was later incorporated into her book Whipping Girl.

Also, many transwomen are pushed by their therapists and other mental health professionals into presenting in a more stereotypically feminine way than they otherwise might be inclined. Some therapists will even withhold approval for medications or surgery based on how well they follow this.

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[info]chime
2007-12-16 11:16 pm UTC (link)
That's a really interesting and well-written essay, I'm glad you linked it :)

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[info]baglieg
2007-12-17 04:41 am UTC (link)
Some trans women, early in their transition, go through a super-girly phase while they're still exploring their potential for femininity, and then grow out of it. Kinda like some teenage cis girls.

Some do it in order to pass, and some do it because that's what is expected of them. In order to get treatment you have to convince a bunch of health professionals, who might be totally ignorant about gender, that you're "trans enough", and stupid as it is that process has a serious bias towards stereotypical behaviour and dress.

And, of course, some just really enjoy being like mega femme, and for those girls that would have been part of the reason why they hated being men. It is hard to be a femme man in our culture... but not as hard as starting to transition.

There are butch trans women out there in the real world, and faggy trans men, but not on TV.

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[info]repairsitself
2008-01-27 11:08 pm UTC (link)
I don't think what you're pointing to is at all universally true, and I've in fact seen Trans women blow up at people for suggesting that they all want speech therapy/makeup lessons/what have you -- there is definitely awareness in the community, especially among younger people, that there are many ways to be a woman.

However, I'm FTM and I've noticed that many FTM people are at their most feminine right before coming out to themselves. I would venture to say that this has to do with wanting to fit in/being insecure about one's gender (I know this was true for me, but I can't say for sure that that's true of the other guys). Because of that experience, I bet that there are some MTF women out there who are more feminine than they would be without societal pressure to 'prove themselves' as women, or to pass, but if I can make another generalization from the FTM to MTF communities, lots of people who transition have in doing so recognized that they're just not gender conformists, and now live in whatever gender and presentation they want. Unfortunately, I'm not at that point yet, and I often check some of my 'feminine' preferences (like ear jewelry) in order to help me pass. It's sad that I feel pressure to do that, and it's also sad that I give in to it.

Thanks for the interesting question!

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