Whatever ([info]welsey) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2005-12-12 16:56:00
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Entry tags:admin

admin notice - new guidelines
Before this admin notice [info]feminist's rules on racism only accounted for slurs, and we know there's a lot more to racism than terminology. We want our community to feel safe for as many people as possible, and our lacking guidelines on racism were not accomplishing that goal. As such, we have come up with some additions to the community guidelines to encompass a broader view of racism and its effects. There are also a few new rules dealing with other forms of oppression and situations we felt needed to be addressed. Comments will be enabled and unscreened if you have any questions or comments. You should also feel free to email us at our email found in the userinfo.

Based on some feedback, here are definitions of racism and sexism as we are using them. We are aware of the dictionary definition; however, we have chosen to use this definition because it is commonly used in anti-racist and social justice communities, and we ask that you also use it while you are in our space. More clarification may be added later:
racism = prejudice + power
sexism = prejudice + power
We separate these things from prejudice because the implications of racism and sexism (as we define them) are so much more significant and powerful than those of prejudice.
Need proof?
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:-I5y1lLfQYsJ:www.canopyweb.com/racism/tent1.doc+racism+definition&hl=en&client=firefox-a
There are a few on here: http://www.euroamerican.org/library/definitions_racism.asp
Undoing Racism Key Definitions

Reverse racism is not a valid concept: You may not bring up points which imply reverse racism or explicitly say that you believe it to be a real threat. Racism implies powersomething which institutionally whites have, and people of color(POC) do not. Therefore, "reverse racism" does not exist. Prejudice, which is what people often mean when referring to "reverse racism" or "reverse sexism", does exist (see the comments for examples). But it must be noted that this does not in any way hold the same power or significance as racism or sexism. Not even close. Implying that it does is not acceptable.

Reverse sexism is not a valid concept: You may not bring up points which imply reverse sexism or explicitly say that you believe it to be a real threat. Feminism is not sexist, and neither are its goals. Sexism implies power, something which institutionally men have, and women do not. Therefore, "reverse sexism" does not exist.

This holds true for other forms of oppression as well. To oppress, you must have institutional power behind you. Implying a "reverse" of any oppression is absolutely unacceptable in this community.

Ignoring the societal and cultural impacts of racism is not acceptable, and neither is blaming POC for racism: Racism is deeper than slurs. You may not imply or state that POC are to blame for negative situations, or that the playing field is level.

Listen to the experiences of POC, know when to talk and when to step back and hear what someone else has to say: We do not support the further silencing of any voices which have been historically silenced. Be willing to listen if you aren't sure.

We do not live in colorblind societies: Racism is alive and well. Take it seriously if someone suggests racism in a post, event, whatever. It's a safe bet that it is racist. Don't use concepts which are based on the assumption that racism is a thing of the past.

Do not compare "isms": It is trivializing and useless. Other people do not experience oppression to help you prove a point. Each "ism" is significant on its own.

For further reading or possible clarification, please read the links below:
Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
--Interview about White Like Me --Everyone should go get this from the library. NOW.
--Race to Our Credit: Denial, Privilege, and Life as a Majority
--White Whine: Reflections on the Brain-Rotting Properties of Privilege
--It's the Racism, Stupid (affirmative action)
--Collateral Damage: Poor Whites and the Unintended Consequences of Racial Privilege
http://www.unlearningracism.org
http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/caleb/Race_Message.txt
How Not to Go Crazy When Accused of Being Racist: A Guide for White People - From Alas, A Blog
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/
Privilege is Driving a Smooth Road and Not Even Knowing It - From Alas, A Blog
zhttp://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/privilege-is-driving-a-smooth-road-and-not-even-knowing-it/

These rules go into effect immediately (with the exception of this post - to the mods discretion - for cases of clarification or misunderstanding) and will be linked on the main userinfo.




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[info]stephzilla
2005-12-12 11:06 pm UTC (link)
Mmm, I love the admins.

(Reply to this)


[info]meredith_mae
2005-12-12 11:12 pm UTC (link)
The reverse racism tort almost implies that one can't be racist agaist a white person. Hatred of another race is racism, pure and simple. For example, a white person walking alone in a predominately black neighborhood might feel uncomfortable. This is, perhaps, for racist reasons, and is most likely because the person feels a lack of power. But in that situation, the power structure, looking solely at the neighborhood, does shift to a race other than the white race. For that matter, in countries where the majority is not white, that definition flies out the window.

I think there can be racism against whites, but it's not "reverse racism," it's simply racism.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]leitch71
2005-12-12 11:16 pm UTC (link)
Racism implies power on a societal scale.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

mod note - [info]welsey, 2005-12-12 11:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]penguinonthelam, 2005-12-12 11:28 pm UTC
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bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]altdrsmoothop, 2005-12-13 08:54 am UTC
Re: bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]delphyne_, 2005-12-13 07:24 pm UTC
Re: bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]morgan_dhu, 2005-12-13 08:29 pm UTC
Re: bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]altdrsmoothop, 2005-12-13 09:57 pm UTC
... - [info]delphyne_, 2005-12-14 05:45 pm UTC
Re: bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]yakkette, 2005-12-14 05:16 am UTC
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... - [info]yakkette, 2005-12-14 09:32 pm UTC
Re: bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]meredith_mae, 2005-12-13 10:34 pm UTC
Re: bear with me, i'm not going to yell at you - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-14 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-13 12:59 pm UTC

[info]rekedar
2005-12-12 11:23 pm UTC (link)
"Racism implies power, something which institutionally whites have, and people of color (POC) do not. Therefore, "reverse racism" does not exist."

"Feminism is not sexist, and neither are its goals. Sexism implies power, something which institutionally men have, and women do not. Therefore, "reverse sexism" does not exist."

Abso-flipping-lutely! Thank you.

(Reply to this)


[info]laughing_dreams
2005-12-12 11:24 pm UTC (link)
thank you for posting this. i probably see (visible, open, loudly) racism around me more than many of you (not all of you, but many of you) Racism is thriving in France today. Look up the name Jean-Marie LePen. Frighteningly enough he almost got elected. He is the head of the national front part. i saw something interesting in the metro the other day which can apply to their politics and many other things (i translate into english)
"the problem is not that the national front party is coming to power,
the problem is that their way if thinking was already there."
substitute national front party with a multitude of things...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]luighseach
2005-12-13 12:12 am UTC (link)
It is a very scary situation, and while it kind of brings some things out into the open, it's scary.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]kwpdb8, 2005-12-14 01:17 am UTC

[info]dancing_moon
2005-12-12 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Can I please ask the mods to compile some sort of newbie guide on structural racism/sexism etc? On the one hand, I agree with what you are saying here, but otoh I know quite well how it feels to be pretty new and be slapped with a mod warning (other comms) for doing something wrong that I didn't even know was wrong - and it's not a "general netiquette" rule like no l33t writing or something like that.

It's a shame you can't auto-mail things on lj, but if new members where shown some instructive posts before they said anything bad, I think it could be nice. Just a suggestion =)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Mod clarification
[info]drunkenatheist
2005-12-12 11:45 pm UTC (link)
In the next few days, I should have a Word doc that better explains white and male privilege. It was written by one of my women's studies profs (for an intro class) and I hope it can help.

Is there anything specific that you'd like us to address? I can scour my sources to see if I have anything that will help out a little more.

Thanks for the feedback!

DA

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mod clarification - [info]rosalynmoon, 2005-12-13 02:19 am UTC
Re: Mod clarification - [info]dancing_moon, 2005-12-13 09:03 am UTC
Re: Mod clarification - [info]morgan_dhu, 2005-12-13 08:36 pm UTC

[info]99catsaway
2005-12-12 11:36 pm UTC (link)
This community gets more boring and streamlined every single day. It's becoming a heaven for learned feminists who study feminism academically, but it's hell for honest inquiries from people who are too afraid to ask a question in here because they might have some sort of "ism" in some sort of prefix in sentence 3 of paragraph 2 that they should have made a disclaimer for.

Y'all wanna talk about centrism? Talk about the rampant academic-centrism of this community. BLAH.

Not that I disagree with a lot of these points-- reverse racism is in fact incorrect as a concept. But the moderators here crack down unbelievably harshly on EVERYTHING.

I say all this as a staunch and long-time (quite hardcore) feminist. :(

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]belladonnalin
2005-12-12 11:42 pm UTC (link)
There's a community specifically set up for people who feel that they need to get a foundation on why certain rules exist or to hash out this stuff ... [info]feminist_101. I'm with you on needing to watch acadmic-ese, because we cannot assume that everyone has had time/opportunity to talk about or learn about some of this stuff. But it seems to me that this is a pretty explicit and clear explanation of why reverse -isms are inappropriate. To say that people have to read pretty clear (and therefore, yes, long) rules and address any questions they had to the mods doesn't seem academic-centrist to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]99catsaway, 2005-12-12 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belladonnalin, 2005-12-13 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]foursixths, 2005-12-13 02:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-12 11:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-12 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]99catsaway, 2005-12-12 11:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belladonnalin, 2005-12-12 11:57 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]redstar826, 2005-12-13 12:10 am UTC
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... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 12:51 pm UTC
... - [info]luighseach, 2005-12-13 02:48 pm UTC
part one of the really long response - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 02:11 am UTC
part two of the really long response hahehae - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-12 11:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]subordinate, 2005-12-13 02:34 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2005-12-13 10:51 am UTC
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... - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 06:41 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 12:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dysgr8mystake, 2005-12-13 12:10 am UTC
... - [info]krazyhippie, 2005-12-13 02:33 am UTC
... - [info]dysgr8mystake, 2005-12-13 02:41 am UTC
from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]the_living_end, 2005-12-13 12:12 am UTC
Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 12:35 am UTC
... - [info]viggie, 2005-12-13 04:05 pm UTC
... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 04:37 pm UTC
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Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 12:36 am UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 02:49 pm UTC
... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 04:37 pm UTC
Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]drunkenatheist, 2005-12-13 01:21 am UTC
... - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 06:43 pm UTC
Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 01:53 am UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 02:20 am UTC
Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]no2ndtroy, 2005-12-13 03:22 am UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 05:18 am UTC
Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]ceilidh, 2005-12-13 03:38 am UTC
... - [info]meredith_mae, 2005-12-13 11:02 pm UTC
... - [info]ceilidh, 2005-12-14 01:59 am UTC
... - [info]unformed, 2006-11-08 10:15 pm UTC
Re: from an entirely non-acedemic person... - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-13 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]spaztasterastic, 2005-12-13 02:33 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]99catsaway, 2005-12-13 02:45 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 06:33 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]99catsaway, 2005-12-13 02:40 pm UTC

[info]transformergeek
2005-12-12 11:37 pm UTC (link)
I think this would be a lot clearer if it included a note on the difference between simple discrimination and oppression.

Oftentimes people will talk about "racism" or "sexism" on an individual level, which it is not. It is, as you mentioned, about power in society.

I am certain that some people reading this will interpret "Reverse sexism doesn't exist" and "Women can't be sexist" as being the same as "An individual woman cannot discriminate against men or hate men."

While I think it's great that you're attempting to clarify what racism and sexism are, I think it might be a wise idea to mention that sometimes when people talk about 'racism', for example, [info]meredith_mae in the above comment, they're really talking about "discriminating based on race," which, to my understanding, is only considered racism when white people are doing it.

My fear is that this will be misread by some (as it has been just a few comments ago with [info]meredith_mae) as the mods trying to say that it is impossible for women to discriminate based on sex and that it is impossible for people of color to discriminate based on race. Sure, a black person could hate all white people, but the absence of power prevents that from being a racist situation. And I think there are a lot of people who don't get that.

I think drawing attention to this fact may save us all from a lot of hair-pulling in the future. I say this because I was in the same situation years ago.

(Sorry if my striving for clarity comes off as redundancy.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]99catsaway
2005-12-12 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Your icon is so wonderful. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]transformergeek, 2005-12-13 12:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]transformergeek, 2005-12-13 12:11 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 12:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zil, 2005-12-13 12:39 am UTC
... - [info]krazyhippie, 2005-12-13 02:38 am UTC
... - [info]distaff_exile, 2005-12-13 04:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 06:56 pm UTC
UK/USA semantics - or "I don't get it" - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 12:57 am UTC
Re: UK/USA semantics - or "I don't get it" - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-13 01:45 am UTC
Re: UK/USA semantics - or "I don't get it" - [info]dancing_moon, 2005-12-13 09:15 am UTC
... - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 07:16 pm UTC
Re: UK/USA semantics - or "I don't get it" - [info]thekumquat, 2005-12-13 02:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]everwatcher, 2005-12-14 09:59 am UTC

[info]dysgr8mystake
2005-12-13 12:06 am UTC (link)
I think a lot of this is far, far too vague. But I guess it has to be, doesn't it? Because the rules cover such a wide range of possible offenses.

Still.

I'm very uncomfortable about all this... not that you honestly care, or should, as I'm not the one running this community and you're the ones taking time out of your busy lives to work with it, but I'll leave my statement nonetheless.

Er, just in case; the above paragraph is absolutely series. I really do admire people who are the mods of such a huge community.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dysgr8mystake
2005-12-13 12:06 am UTC (link)
er, serious.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

clarification please - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 12:09 am UTC
Re: clarification please - [info]dysgr8mystake, 2005-12-13 12:11 am UTC
Re: clarification please - [info]transformergeek, 2005-12-13 12:12 am UTC

[info]kadaria
2005-12-13 12:19 am UTC (link)
As said before, this is the first time I have encountered this definition of these two words.
While I understand what it is saying, I'm not sure if it is how most people use those words. For example:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sexism
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racism

These definitions do not match up with the community's definition. While I can see truth in both, which one do more people have access to?
I'm also confused (on racism) about the use of "white people" and agree with Naath that there is racism outside of the western power structure (there are many other Asian cultures that look down on each other, not just the Chinese). Not only that but white people are not always the dominating race in some countries.
I personally have never used racism or sexism to define actions as only one race to another or one sex to another. If a woman discriminates against men for being men, to me that is sexist behavior, just as if a man discriminates against women for the same reason.
I feel that replacing these words with predjudice loses the meaning of what those actions stand for as predjudice can be used very broadly.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kadaria
2005-12-13 12:22 am UTC (link)
second, second time...
Sorry it's one of those days.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

mod clarification - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 12:24 am UTC
Re: mod clarification - [info]transformergeek, 2005-12-13 12:31 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 12:37 am UTC
... - [info]ceejayoz, 2005-12-13 01:31 am UTC
... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 02:03 am UTC
... - [info]madamjolie, 2005-12-13 04:24 am UTC
... - [info]ceejayoz, 2005-12-13 05:00 am UTC
... - [info]madamjolie, 2005-12-13 06:37 am UTC
... - [info]madamjolie, 2005-12-13 06:40 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 06:44 am UTC
... - [info]madamjolie, 2005-12-13 06:55 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 07:00 am UTC
... - [info]madamjolie, 2005-12-14 04:36 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 12:39 am UTC
... - [info]noctuenza, 2005-12-13 12:42 am UTC
... - [info]vahinko, 2005-12-13 12:45 am UTC
... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 02:06 am UTC
... - [info]noctuenza, 2005-12-13 02:20 am UTC
... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 02:31 am UTC
... - [info]ceejayoz, 2005-12-13 03:44 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:22 am UTC
... - [info]kahvi, 2005-12-13 10:52 am UTC
Re: mod clarification - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 12:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 12:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]squinting_kitty, 2005-12-13 12:56 am UTC
Note - [info]squinting_kitty, 2005-12-13 01:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ceejayoz, 2005-12-13 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]everwatcher, 2005-12-14 10:09 am UTC

[info]robynchick
2005-12-13 12:36 am UTC (link)
Before I speak, I do understand that as moderators, you may certainly enforce any rules you'd like from here on out. I promise to completely obey these rules, regardless of my beliefs.

There is not such thing as reverse racism because, anthropologically, racism is simply any racial group taking advantage of another racial group or member of that group which is not in power. While historically the norm has been a white racism towards persons of color, this does not necessarily prevent such a thing as racism where (For instance) a black majority is in power and takes advantage of a person who is Asian, Latina, or white, as in many African countries now under Black African government.

Similarly, while feminism is not a sexist institution, some women do in fact have power over men and can abuse that power. A woman who started an internet company and hired only female janitors regardless of their skill level would indeed be guilty of legal sexism, just as much as a male who hired only Male CEOs.

Stating that a group must have societal power to be racist/sexist implies several things.
1. That all societies are the same: White people and Men do not have power in every society in the world.
2. That it is actively impossible for women and people of color to have this power and potentially abuse it.

By calling these terms prejudice, you weaken their hurt. Also, these terms have legal definitions. While a Man can be punished for sexism, prejudice isn't exactly illegal.

While I will certainly follow the rules, I just wanted to point out the inherent issues in using terms differently for women and people of color.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zil
2005-12-13 12:43 am UTC (link)
That was very well put. I agree with you on all counts, including the promise to obey the rules regardless of our own sentiments.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]rosalynmoon, 2005-12-13 02:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stealyourself, 2005-12-13 04:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 03:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]robynchick, 2005-12-13 06:12 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 06:45 pm UTC
... - [info]squinting_kitty, 2005-12-13 07:48 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 09:31 pm UTC
... - [info]squinting_kitty, 2005-12-13 10:53 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 06:47 pm UTC
... - [info]morgan_dhu, 2005-12-14 08:39 pm UTC
... - [info]robynchick, 2005-12-14 08:45 pm UTC

[info]astralis_lumen
2005-12-13 12:43 am UTC (link)
Question: So if in a culture, two different races were basically equal and discriminated against each other, it would be simply prejudice and not racism?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ
[info]welsey
2005-12-13 12:50 am UTC (link)
Can I just ask that rather than arguing all of these definition issues that the members of this community just ACCEPT that racism from the group in power is FAR WORSE than "racism" from the group not in power, and that is what we are talking about here?

Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ - [info]squinting_kitty, 2005-12-13 01:33 am UTC
Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ - [info]ever_life, 2005-12-13 01:35 am UTC
... - [info]krazyhippie, 2005-12-13 02:43 am UTC
... - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 04:19 am UTC
... - [info]ever_life, 2005-12-13 10:14 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 03:23 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 03:52 pm UTC
... - [info]ever_life, 2005-12-13 05:10 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 05:23 pm UTC
... - [info]ever_life, 2005-12-13 05:46 pm UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-13 06:29 pm UTC
... - [info]ever_life, 2005-12-13 06:56 pm UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-13 07:02 pm UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 07:06 pm UTC
... - [info]morgan_dhu, 2005-12-13 09:12 pm UTC
... - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-14 02:54 pm UTC
... - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-14 02:42 pm UTC
... - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 07:00 pm UTC
... - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-14 02:39 pm UTC
Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 05:17 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 05:29 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 03:19 pm UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 03:53 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 06:03 pm UTC
Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ - [info]astralis_lumen, 2005-12-14 02:11 am UTC
... - [info]morgan_dhu, 2005-12-14 09:00 pm UTC
... - [info]astralis_lumen, 2005-12-14 10:03 pm UTC

[info]ishshah
2005-12-13 12:50 am UTC (link)
I'm relatively new here and won't presume to tell dedicated moderators how to do their jobs. That said, you do seem to want some feedback, so here are my thoughts:

1. The points on 'reverse racism' and 'reverse sexism' are very America/Europe-centric. In quite a bit of the world (the majority by population) power is not institutionally held by whites. In a few matriarchal societies, power is not institutionally held by men. It seems like you would need to restrict these rules, at least as literally written, to specific countries. Right now it just seems to assume that we all live in America, Europe, or maybe Australia.

2. Apart from that problem, I really feel conflicted about the first two rules, and maybe the last one. Take, for instance, 'Racism implies power, something which institutionally whites have, and people of color (POC) do not. Therefore, "reverse racism" does not exist.' That sounds to me like a substantive thesis, or at best a theoretical definition. Why prevent people from challenging it (unless they are obviously doing so just to make trouble)? Knowledge grows only if it is subject to open and honest inquiry. Punishing people for raising questions about received wisdom only encourages theories to stagnate. Maybe the questions turn out to be misguided, but such errors offer opportunities to educate and, in doing so, perhaps refine the received wisdom itself. To me, this new policy looks like a step toward turning the community into an echo chamber, and I don't see how that is beneficial.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

thanks for the feedback
[info]welsey
2005-12-13 12:56 am UTC (link)
I think you've got a great point with #1 (as do the other people who have made similar points) and I think I'll edit these rules to reflect that.

2 - The problem with allowing people to challenge "reverse racism" is the same problem we would have in this community if we allowed ourselves to entertain all challenges of feminism by anti-feminists. It's just not productive. We are a feminist community, by definition, so we already have certain assumptions and ideological rules in place. This is simply an amendment to these feminist ideas.

If you have further questions, definitely send an email to mods@mastication.net.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]thecityofdis, 2005-12-13 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 04:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 04:53 am UTC
... - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 05:01 am UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 05:19 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:29 am UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 02:29 pm UTC
... - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 06:04 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 01:27 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:20 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 01:43 am UTC
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... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-14 02:17 am UTC
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... - [info]horosha, 2005-12-14 08:56 am UTC
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... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 07:05 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-14 08:50 am UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 07:10 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-14 02:06 am UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 02:15 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-14 02:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bookgrrrl, 2005-12-13 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 02:44 pm UTC
... - [info]bookgrrrl, 2005-12-13 03:50 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 01:24 am UTC
... - [info]azikale, 2005-12-13 08:40 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 01:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 06:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 01:26 am UTC
Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ
[info]astralis_lumen
2005-12-13 12:58 am UTC (link)
I know that racism from the group in power is worse than the group not in power. I was just asking a question. And isn't just accepting what someone telling you without any debate just making ideas stagnate? I'm sorry if these things seem rude - I really do appreciate everything the mods do - it's just that I'm a curious sort of person.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ
[info]krazyhippie
2005-12-13 02:45 am UTC (link)
Would we also accept "debate" from anti-feminists about the basic premises of feminism? This isn't a debate comm. There are some things you should accept if you're part of this community because it's not the comm's duty to educate you and defend ourselves.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ - [info]laceyjess, 2005-12-13 04:05 am UTC
... - [info]krazyhippie, 2005-12-13 04:14 am UTC
... - [info]99catsaway, 2005-12-13 09:03 pm UTC
Re: CLARIFICATION PLEASE READ - [info]astralis_lumen, 2005-12-14 10:07 pm UTC

[info]margeryk
2005-12-13 01:26 am UTC (link)
"Prejudice, which is what people often mean when referring to "reverse racism" or "reverse sexism", does exist (see the comments for examples). "

Okay - I agree with everything you say in this part of the rules, except for the last few lines:

"But it must be noted that this [prejudice] does not in any way hold the same power or significance as racism or sexism. Not even close. Implying that it does is not acceptable."

Racism and sexism are poles apart. Whilst sexism is discrimination + power it only concerns two parties: men and women. Furthermore, historically and geographically women have been the oppressed party. Sexism is a more homogenous and universal experience than racism.

This is because racism is multi-faceted. It is not restricted to two parties. It can encompass as many differences as your culture contains and takes on different forms across the globe.

So, whilst writing in a feminist community I concur that institutional sexism is far more damaging than sexual prejudice; however, when it comes to racism, I believe that racial prejudice is just as bad as institutional racism because of the increased opportunities to turn this prejudice into discrimination.

And so back at the ranch: "But it must be noted that this [prejudice] does not in any way hold the same power or significance as racism or sexism. Not even close. Implying that it does is not acceptable."

As I find racial prejudice just as significant as racism, I must not be acceptable.

Is that *really* what you mean?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]welsey
2005-12-13 01:32 am UTC (link)
In short, yes it is.

(Except that we obviously don't mean that *you* are not acceptable, only that certain viewpoints are not within this community.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Aha - I think I have spotted a solution! - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-14 01:44 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-14 01:59 am UTC
... - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-14 02:19 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-14 02:47 am UTC
... - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-14 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 01:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 02:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-14 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-13 02:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 02:31 am UTC
... - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-13 07:22 pm UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 10:50 pm UTC
... - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-13 11:00 pm UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 04:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 07:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]odd_duck_out, 2005-12-13 10:48 pm UTC

[info]rocket_hamster
2005-12-13 01:38 am UTC (link)
Actually, the concept of reverse racism is racist because it implies that the only "correct" way to be racist is for it to be from a white person towards a person of color (thus, a person of color being racist towards a white person is "backwards". And to say it's only racism if the racist is in power says that persons of color can never be the ones in power, which is also racist.

"Feminism is not sexist, and neither are its goals. Sexism implies power, something which institutionally men have, and women do not."

I thought the reason feminism wasn't oppresive is because it didn't seek to oppress men, but gain equality. This sounds more like permission to make gross over-generalizations against men, claiming it's ok because men have the power.

I actually find these definitions to be kind of offensive. And they will probably make it even harder to have real conversation in this community. I mean, you say you won't tolerate silencing someone's voice, right after saying "reverse racism" isn't a valid concept and it's use will not be tolerated (I don't disagree that it isn't a valid concept, but, as I stated above, for different reason). I know that I've often had a hard time speaking my mind here because so often people nit-pick about which words you use, and don't listen to what you're actually saying. I've before been accused of being an anit-feminist, simply because I disagreed with someone else about something. There's already enough that seperates us without creating more. Whether or not something is "racist", "sexist" or simply "prejudice" is playing too much with symantecs, and missing the more important issue: in that discriminating against anyone, at any time, by anyone, for matters of race, gender, sex, sexual orientation, class, so on and so forth is WRONG, no matter what you call it and no matter who's doing it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]arisnoe
2005-12-13 01:39 am UTC (link)
I agree with you 100%.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswong, 2005-12-13 01:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 02:11 am UTC
... - [info]subordinate, 2005-12-13 02:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hooper_x, 2005-12-13 01:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 02:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 02:51 am UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 04:14 pm UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 04:57 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 05:02 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 05:50 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-14 01:51 am UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 06:00 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-14 01:53 am UTC
... - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 07:03 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:26 pm UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 04:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chessdev, 2005-12-13 03:38 am UTC
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... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:24 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 08:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 06:28 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 03:26 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 04:51 pm UTC

[info]onewayfreak
2005-12-13 01:42 am UTC (link)
Huh. Okay, every time I post in this community I'm afraid I'm breaking a rule. I don't want to leave the community completely because I like reading the discussions and the news stories and such, but there's just too many rules... I think I'll just stop posting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rocket_hamster
2005-12-13 01:48 am UTC (link)
I'm starting to feel that way myself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]subjectivism, 2005-12-13 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]noctuenza, 2005-12-13 01:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]robynchick, 2005-12-13 09:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 09:38 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]brittlepoetry, 2005-12-13 01:59 am UTC
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... - [info]everwatcher, 2005-12-14 08:45 pm UTC
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... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 09:41 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]distaff_exile, 2005-12-13 04:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-13 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onewayfreak, 2005-12-13 02:20 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]redstar826, 2005-12-13 02:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 02:31 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 09:45 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]rainbowdreams12, 2005-12-13 03:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-13 01:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onewayfreak, 2005-12-13 02:43 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-13 07:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nezchan, 2005-12-13 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:34 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 09:50 pm UTC

[info]subjectivism
2005-12-13 01:50 am UTC (link)
I don't understand the concept of "reverse racism" or "reverse sexism". Racism is racism. Sexism is sexism. It doesn't matter who is the target.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]leitch71
2005-12-13 02:07 am UTC (link)
It matters who is the perpetrator.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]subjectivism, 2005-12-13 02:08 am UTC
... - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-13 02:11 am UTC
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... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 03:00 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 04:22 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 04:30 am UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 05:12 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 05:25 am UTC
... - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 06:28 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 06:34 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:47 am UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 03:26 pm UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 03:56 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-14 02:04 am UTC
... - [info]radclyffe, 2005-12-13 08:36 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:40 am UTC
... - [info]99catsaway, 2005-12-13 02:25 pm UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 04:02 pm UTC
... - [info]virulently, 2005-12-13 08:14 pm UTC
... - [info]yakkette, 2005-12-13 11:23 pm UTC
... - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-13 02:23 am UTC
... - [info]subjectivism, 2005-12-13 02:24 am UTC
... - [info]rosalynmoon, 2005-12-13 02:34 am UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 03:32 pm UTC
... - [info]rosalynmoon, 2005-12-13 03:52 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 04:21 pm UTC
... - [info]rosalynmoon, 2005-12-13 07:30 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 08:33 pm UTC
... - [info]rosalynmoon, 2005-12-13 09:22 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:41 am UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 02:44 am UTC
... - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-13 03:51 am UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 04:35 am UTC
... - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-13 06:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-13 01:26 pm UTC

[info]softanimal
2005-12-13 01:55 am UTC (link)
you are wonderful. thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]welsey
2005-12-13 02:06 am UTC (link)
Really - thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]hooper_x
2005-12-13 01:58 am UTC (link)
SEMANTICS ARE GO!

-hx

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mittimus
2005-12-14 10:37 am UTC (link)
I can't believe you said that! ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hooper_x, 2005-12-14 01:16 pm UTC
To the mods:
[info]beandelphiki
2005-12-13 02:02 am UTC (link)
Wow, I'm so sorry for 80%+ of the above comments. I had no idea that this was where [info]feminist members stood in regards to racism, but now I know. Honestly, I expected a 20-30% negative response at most, so I guess I haven't paid much attention in the past months I've been a member here.

VERY revealing. No wonder so many WOC don't like this community. After seeing this fallout, I think I'll try to be a more active member. Thanks guys.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: To the mods:
[info]welsey
2005-12-13 02:06 am UTC (link)
Thank you so much for this comment. Seriously.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: To the mods: - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 02:14 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 02:26 am UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 02:38 am UTC
... - [info]grennie, 2005-12-13 09:53 am UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 03:28 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 03:35 pm UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 04:05 pm UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 04:07 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 04:25 pm UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 04:32 pm UTC
... - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-13 06:03 pm UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 06:09 pm UTC
... - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-13 06:42 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:43 pm UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-14 01:06 am UTC
... - [info]rocketgeek, 2005-12-13 05:18 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 08:42 pm UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-14 01:00 am UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-14 01:11 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:26 am UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 02:34 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:48 am UTC
... - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-13 03:27 am UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 06:18 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 07:50 am UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 04:38 pm UTC
... - [info]robynchick, 2005-12-13 09:09 am UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 04:42 pm UTC
... - [info]crafting_change, 2005-12-13 12:41 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 04:40 pm UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-13 06:40 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-14 02:06 am UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-14 06:51 pm UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-13 06:41 pm UTC
... - [info]crafting_change, 2005-12-13 07:38 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-14 02:07 am UTC
... - [info]crafting_change, 2005-12-14 12:24 pm UTC
... - [info]altdrsmoothop, 2005-12-13 06:39 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-14 02:04 am UTC
... - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-14 03:27 pm UTC
... - [info]subjectivism, 2005-12-13 02:36 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:41 am UTC
... - [info]subordinate, 2005-12-13 02:44 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:55 am UTC
... - [info]subjectivism, 2005-12-13 02:44 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:54 am UTC
... - [info]subjectivism, 2005-12-13 03:36 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 07:06 am UTC
... - [info]noctuenza, 2005-12-13 02:46 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:52 am UTC
... - [info]noctuenza, 2005-12-13 03:04 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 03:18 am UTC
... - [info]noctuenza, 2005-12-13 03:31 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 03:46 am UTC
... - [info]trbulnt_spnstr, 2005-12-13 05:28 am UTC
... - [info]chessdev, 2005-12-13 04:09 am UTC
... - [info]chessdev, 2005-12-13 04:10 am UTC
... - [info]laceyjess, 2005-12-13 04:20 am UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-13 04:25 am UTC
... - [info]chessdev, 2005-12-13 04:33 am UTC
... - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-13 04:46 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 05:00 am UTC
... - [info]avaloner, 2005-12-14 01:03 am UTC
... - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-13 05:24 am UTC
... - [info]chessdev, 2005-12-13 05:42 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 05:02 am UTC
... - [info]nezchan, 2005-12-13 05:58 pm UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 02:37 am UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 02:47 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 02:49 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 03:10 am UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 03:28 am UTC
... - [info]chiranka, 2005-12-13 03:34 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 03:38 am UTC
... - [info]margeryk, 2005-12-14 03:32 pm UTC
... - [info]ishshah, 2005-12-13 04:29 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 05:35 am UTC
... - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 05:37 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 06:50 am UTC
... - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-13 04:24 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 08:34 am UTC

(Deleted post)
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 05:34 pm UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 05:31 am UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 06:21 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 03:50 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 04:42 pm UTC
... - [info]softanimal, 2005-12-13 09:03 am UTC
... - [info]kadaria, 2005-12-13 03:38 pm UTC
... - [info]ladyceleste, 2005-12-14 12:37 am UTC
... - [info]ladyceleste, 2005-12-14 12:24 am UTC
... - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-14 02:21 am UTC
... - [info]ladyceleste, 2005-12-14 02:28 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-13 01:47 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-13 04:42 pm UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-13 04:23 pm UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]yakkette, 2005-12-13 11:30 pm UTC
... - [info]rocket_hamster, 2005-12-14 02:11 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]avaloner, 2005-12-13 02:18 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]welsey, 2005-12-13 02:20 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]no2ndtroy, 2005-12-13 05:12 am UTC
Re: To the mods: - [info]beandelphiki, 2005-12-13 07:57 am UTC
... - [info]bombyamom, 2005-12-13 03:44 pm UTC
... - [info]bluebuckeye, 2005-12-13 07:16 pm UTC