thicklikehoney ([info]thicklikehoney) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2005-12-11 00:24:00
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i am outraged. I am currently watching Fox News and they are discussing the Debra Lefave case. While I am pretty unaware of what the details are, the gist of the story is that a female high school teacher had sex with her freshman student. She offered a plea deal and is getting out of jail time because of the plea. They are claiming there is a double standard, if she were a man and had slept with a female student, there would be no plea and definately jail time. Which I may agree with. But that is not the point of this post.

They had someone on the show arguing to the fact that her sentence was fair. And he said (i'm paraphrasing) "I think it may be true that a man would have gotten jail time, but I honestly don't think the boy was traumatized by this. I mean come on, he's a high school freshman boy. I think this comes down to an issue of gender, and if you ask men if they would have been traumatized, they would say no. A woman would say yes. Boys want sex at that age."

This boy was minor, not capable of fully understanding the extend of this action. She had no right to have sex with him, the same as a male teacher would have no right to have sex with a female student. This is not a question of gender, but of ethics. Saying 'boys just want to have sex' and 'girls are afraid of sex' is such a generalization and sooo demeaning to both sexes and their sexuality.

No wonder why these stereotypes get perpetuated.



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[info]tikae
2005-12-11 05:45 am UTC (link)
I wonder if we saw the same thing?

I was flipping through the channels about a week ago and came across people discussing that same case, also on Fox. There was a female anchor, a male anchor, and a man who'd written a book about teachers having sexual relationships with students.

The two anchors were both taking the case somewhat seriously but still tossing out cautiously-worded stereotypes and seemed trying to keep themselves from looking too amused (because look! the teacher was totally hot!). The male anchor asked the author something amounting to, "hey, it's kind of wrong for this to happen, but you were a teen boy, you know what it's like, don't you think-"

The man they were interviewing flat-out said (okay, paraphrased): "Some people say girls don't want sex at that age, and boys always do, so it's different - I don't know, but it doesn't matter. The teacher's an authority figure, and the teacher's the one who's supposed to know better."

So in short, I agree, but I wanted to mention that even on Fox News, they'd managed to get the opinion of at least one person who wasn't a total idiot about that subject. Yay!

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[info]thicklikehoney
2005-12-11 05:54 am UTC (link)
no this was not the same thing. although similar. i just saw this program 5 mins before posting this, and there was one female anchor, and two male guests. and none of them used as much tact as you have described. the man never mentioned anything about the teacher being an authority figure, just that boys wanted sex. it was outrageous and i almost fell out of my chair.

one of the guests was actually the teacher's husband. who didn't say much of anything.

and they kept showing pictures of the sexy teacher in a two piece swim suit posing on a motorcycle. hmmm.

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[info]tikae
2005-12-11 06:31 am UTC (link)
Eww. Too bad.

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[info]dysgr8mystake
2005-12-11 06:37 am UTC (link)
THe treatment of the woman in these cases is always pretty disturbingly weird.

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[info]tikae
2005-12-11 07:08 am UTC (link)
Oh, all kinds of weirdness. Like that they're held up as responsible, sure, but their victims aren't really held up as victims, so it's often treated as a victimless crime. Especially if they're hot, because what underage boy wouldn't want to have sex with a hot woman? And that so much of the mainstream, non-feminist condemnation of them amounts to "Oh my god, a man would be in so much trouble in this same situation, so, um, we better condemn her even more!" The general analysis of these situations amounts to: "we can only recognize this bad thing not by realizing that it's wrong for authority figures, not by realizing the problems with treating underage boys as if they're fully able to consent to sex, not by realizing the problems with acting like all males want sex all the time, but by comparing it to males in the same situation - oh, and then saying it's worse because women have no sex drive and/or are more morally pure so they have no excuse."

And male authority figures do tend to be taken more "seriously" as abusers - except, of course (as was discussed several posts ago in this community) if the general public thinks the girl is hot and Lolita-esque - this from people who certainly never read Lolita and wouldn't be capable of understanding it if they had.

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[info]dysgr8mystake
2005-12-11 06:04 am UTC (link)
Wow. That's completely unexpected and makes me feel quite cheerful.

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[info]boigrrrlwonder
2005-12-11 07:07 am UTC (link)
Now, I do think it is wrong for a teacher to have sex with the student, but I disagree as to the reasoning. If he's a high school freshman, he's fourteen years old. He may or may not have already been sexually active. He may or may not have been ready for sex. At that age, it varies. However, I see what she did as wrong because she is his teacher; in addition to the legal rights she has and the finacial stability she has, she has the authority over him that a teacher has over a student. The power difference is too great for it to truly be a consensual experience. Yet to argue that someone does not understand the full extent of having sex because they are a minor is a bit excessive. The average age someone looses their virginity in this country is about sixteen. Some people are ready for sex earlier than others, but even if he is ready for sex, due to the power difference it's still wrong.

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[info]thicklikehoney
2005-12-11 07:31 am UTC (link)
i complete agree with you. without giving away too much information, i lost my virginity before i was of "legal" age and i know i was ready for it.

when i said he didn't under his action, i wasn't talking about simply having sex, i meant having sex with his teacher. my comment was meant to show that i felt the teacher had the responsibilty in the case and that the student should not be given the thumbs up for landing the teacher in bed. that being in the position he was in, and the power difference, he isn't able to view it correctly.

sorry this came out wrong the first time.

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[info]peaceofpie
2005-12-11 01:35 pm UTC (link)
I brought this point up last time this case was mentioned, but one thing that's really bothering me about the case that seems to not come up enough in conversations on this community is the possibility that he raped her.

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[info]karnythia
2005-12-11 11:32 pm UTC (link)
There is no claim that he raped her, you're thinking of the other teacher who had sex with three students in the same afternoon. This kid was a victim.

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[info]peaceofpie
2005-12-11 11:43 pm UTC (link)
No, I know which case we're talking about. I'm not saying that he did rape her. I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened. But that's exactly the point...I don't know what happened, and I know that 16-year-old guys can rape, and that if a 16-year-old student were to rape his teacher and she (for any of the vast number of reasons that someone might not feel safe saying she was raped) didn't feel safe saying she was raped, but then someone found out that they'd had sex, he could easily say that she raped him and nobody would ever know that it didn't actually happen that way.

I think it's important that since we don't know everything about the situation, we can't assume that the "facts" about the case that have come forward are actually what really happened, since it is possible that it happened a different way. I think it's definitely ALSO possible that she raped him; I don't want to suggest that I think I know what really happened, because I definitely don't have any idea.

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[info]karnythia
2005-12-11 11:46 pm UTC (link)
Well he was 13, and I somehow doubt that she'd be pleading guilty to sexually assaulting him. You're questioning the victim solely because of his gender?

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[info]peaceofpie
2005-12-12 12:02 am UTC (link)
You're right, I had gotten it mixed it up with another story...I thought he was 16 at the time, which did make it more questionable in my head. And yeah, after I posted it, I was asking myself if I'd be questioning it this much if the genders were reversed. I do think it's important to consider both the reality that female teacher can rape male students, and also the reality that it would probably not be too difficult for a male student to rape his female teacher, claim that she raped him, and get her in a shitload of trouble...but it does seem less likely that it happened like that, now that I know which story we're talking about. I don't want to say it's impossible, and it's definitely making me really uncomfortable how she's being portrayed in the media (if you look at all the photos of her, they seem to me to be really sexualized in a gross way...I highly doubt a male rapist would be portrayed this way), which could quite possibly be why I'm questioning her treatment in this case. But this has definitely given me a lot to think about. Thanks for challenging me on this one.

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[info]karnythia
2005-12-12 03:28 am UTC (link)
Those were the photos they found of her on the web, they popped up when I googled her name right when the story first broke. The photos seem to be her defense as a matter of fact, basically saying that the kid has no reason to complain.

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[info]trufflepig
2005-12-11 08:46 am UTC (link)
what the anchor said is pretty disgusting. whether or not the 14 year old boy was traumatized or not, saying that he shouldn't be traumatized just because he's of a pubescent age and male qualifies as victim blaming.

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[info]blackstone
2005-12-11 12:39 pm UTC (link)
That's an excellent point. I'm trying to imagine the conflicting emotions a young boy would feel after something like this, especially when everyone is saying that it's 'okay' and he's 'lucky' because she was 'hot.'

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[info]trinityva
2005-12-11 04:56 pm UTC (link)
WORD.

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[info]laughingimp
2005-12-14 06:04 am UTC (link)
In the eyes of his peer group--and, apparently, certain news anchors--he has no choice but to have sex with his teacher if it's offered. Adolescents are trying hard to figure out what it means to be an adult, and as such, they pay attention to whatever role models are handy. Unfortunately, the loudest and most omnipresent role model is that degenerate, sexist, homophobic beast, Pop Culture.

If Pop Culture tells adolescent boys that men want sex and will go to absurd lengths to get it--the whole point of many a teenage movie--then he must sleep with whichever woman offers him sex, otherwise he is behaving in a less-than-manly fashion. (And trust me. At age 14, there is no insult more vile than that.)

Even if he is sexually experienced, even if he has a good handle on relationships with girls his own age, he's out of his depth with a real-life adult. Age gives her a mystique that he simply isn't able to deal with, and he won't be able to deal with it until he's an adult. Of course, you can't tell him that, because he's convinced that the sex act makes him a man.

(I've been caught in that allure myself. Fortunately for me, the object of my affection realized that this was a Bad Scene, and she distanced herself from me, just like this teacher should have done.)

I digress. Pop-Culture-as-role-model leads him into an emotional entanglement that he's completely unequipped to deal with. (After all, Pop Culture--the Patriarchy, if you prefer--tells him that men don't have to worry about that. Women are the ones with the emotional hangups.)

After that, where does he go? Pride and emotional attachment will lead him to defend her, and his relationship with her. If he ever admits that it was wrong, that it hurt him, we're unlikely to hear him say it in this decade. However, it did hurt him, and you can bet that this emotional damage will carry on through other relationships, because he'll always compare his current girlfriend to his too-good-to-be-true teacher.

Yeah. Bad scene.

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[info]luighseach
2005-12-11 12:49 pm UTC (link)
Absolutely. And he may or may not be, and no matter what, she did not know if he would be...

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[info]kiaramoon
2005-12-11 03:01 pm UTC (link)
This is kind of weird but I was (and still am) an over sexualized kid. When I was 12 I would have had sex with a teacher I was crushing on and in NO WAY feel traumatized by it. Fortunately, my teachers were not pervs and that never happened.

I'm just saying at 12 or 14 you probably won't feel traumatized but you might when you are older and wtf is that anyway? It's not really important because that shouldn't matter. She was still his teacher. She is an authority figure that had sex with an underage boy.

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[info]purpledusk
2005-12-11 03:49 pm UTC (link)
A male teacher at my school had sex with underage students and he was fired, but no charges were filed. I think the biggest double standard in this case is how much publicity it's getting. Women are supposed to be safe and this one wasn't and that makes her an abomination in the eyes of the media. I'm not defending her, but I object to the idea that she's getting off because she's female.

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[info]goddessdragon
2005-12-11 05:12 pm UTC (link)
I think the guests on FOX are mixing up having a crush on your teacher and fantasizing about having sex with them, or actually doing the act. I'm sure its possible the boy had a crush on his teacher. I'm sure its possible that he fantasized about having sex with her. It still doesn't make it ok on the teacher's end. Like others have already posted, she had influence over many aspects of his life and could use that to intimidate/dominant him.

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[info]rocket_hamster
2005-12-11 05:50 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, because boys are never negatively affected by sexual abuse.

C'mon, that's completely disgusting. Just another reason to never watch Fox News ever. You should write them a letter though. Besides, it's not an anchor's job to have an opinion about the news.

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[info]cailin_t
2005-12-11 06:40 pm UTC (link)
i don't agree with what the guy said as a generalization, but i do believe a high school freshman is capable of making their own sexual choices. i certainly was, as were the vast majority of friends and family members of mine. i actually can't even think of anyone i know that was still a virgin by age 15.

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[info]killer_raincoat
2005-12-11 08:20 pm UTC (link)
This is one of the reasons why I can't understand why many of my male friends are so wary of feminism.

If they were in this situation, or in a situation where they were raped, their female assailant might get a slap on the wrist, because hey, men are always willing, right?

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[info]tikae
2005-12-11 08:58 pm UTC (link)
I've heard a lot of men make jokes like "oh, she can rape me any time" when they're talking about super-hot celebrities or such. I think a fair amount of men really don't think of the possibility that they could be assaulted or raped by a woman they didn't find attractive, or that they could ever possibly not be in the mood for sex.

And when confronted with the case where a woman was arrested for performing oral sex on a man when he was asleep, a lot of guys on a message board I frequent called the man a "pussy" for reporting the sexual assault because 1) free blowjob and/or 2) it's not like he was penetrated or anything. Yaaaaay.

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[info]peaceofpie
2005-12-12 12:04 am UTC (link)
This has nothing to do with this post, but your icon is the SHIT.

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[info]cuthugan
2005-12-12 12:48 am UTC (link)
I think the post fits in, it's another example of the point the origonal post was trying to make: that sexual abuse on men isnt always taken seriously...though to SOME (assholes), sexual abuse against women isnt taken seriously either.

Ok, now THIS post has nothing to do with the origonal post, but the one above me is far more relevent.

Im going to shut up now.

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[info]cuthugan
2005-12-12 12:50 am UTC (link)
OMG! I thought you meant that tikae's comment had nothing to do with this post!

I R STOOOOOOPID!!!!!

Sorry :(

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[info]tikae
2005-12-12 01:11 am UTC (link)
Ha - I did too at first, since I just skimmed and saw "nothing to do with this post" and "SHIT."

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[info]peaceofpie
2005-12-12 01:21 am UTC (link)
Haha, nooo! Just sharing the Firefly-love. ;-)

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[info]tikae
2005-12-12 01:46 am UTC (link)
Good, good, the Firefly love certainly needs more... sharing.

For example, to share: I'm currently pre-ordering the Serenity DVD and singing to myself as I pretend that my purchase will be the deciding vote in whether there's a second movie or not.

Maybe I'll just buy Serenity DVDs for EVERYONE on my prezzie-list this year.

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[info]tikae
2005-12-12 01:16 am UTC (link)
Thanks! I got it from here.

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