feminist: transphobia in feminism?

Sabrina Qedesha (

sophiaserpentia) wrote in

feminist,
@ 2005-11-01 11:54:00

transphobia in feminism?
Just what i needed to start the morning wrong: a healthy dose of feminist transphobia.

When i first started to explore feminism in the early nineties, i was driven away because this sentiment, when i encountered it, was offered as the feminist opinion of transsexualism. Nothing i saw back then gave me any reason to believe otherwise, because this was the only opinion i ever encountered on transsexualism in feminism. Reading about the MWMF debate and the accounts of Sandy Stone and Pat Califia (and others) of anti-transsexual prejudice they witnessed first-hand in the feminist community only solidified that impression.

I didn't dig any deeper because i didn't see a reason to. So it was only until a year or so ago that i re-examined the matter and found that many of feminists do not hold transphobic views like those described in the essay linked to above. Most of the comments i have seen in this community, for example, are accepting of transgenderism.

I could never understand transphobia in feminism, because it just doesn't make sense. Transphobia is rooted in gender essentialism, an ideology not compatible with liberation.

Has there been a shift in the mainstream of feminism away from transphobia, or have most feminists been accepting of transgenderism all along? If so, why didn't i encounter trans-accepting feminist voices before now?

(Post a new comment)

foibey
2005-11-01 05:04 pm UTC (link)

I think that feminism in general has been massively supportive of a lot of concepts which are elements of trans liberation politics all along, but when it comes to supporting trans people a large number of feminists have had problems connecting those principles to the lives of trans people (especially when you take into account the historical molding of transpeople into obscenely gender-normative people through exploitation of gatekeeper status within the psychological community, which results in trans people superficially not looking like people compatible with feminist values).

A few things have changed, like psychologists enforcing gender stereotypes less, transpeople questioning their oppression a lot more and developing their own critique of society, and feminism opening up to a more plural vision of "how to be a feminist".

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	sophiaserpentia 2005-11-01 05:46 pm UTC (link)
	::nods in agreement:: (Reply to this) (Parent)

	radclyffe 2005-11-02 02:48 am UTC (link)
	i agree with your message, but i think it would be more balanced to say "obscene molding of transpeople into gender-normatively people through exploitation" rather than "obscenely gender-normative". putting the obscenity with the coercive exploitation & not with gender normative identities/presentation. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

foibey
2005-11-02 10:17 am UTC (link)

My point with respect to the gender normativity is actually quite specifically that the standards of what is and isn't gender normative held by the doctors in question have generally been 20-40 years out of date, a set of standards which are in themselves obscene. That is to say that in my eyes, both the standards and the exploitation are obscene, with the standards being so because they aren't even accurate portrayals of modern society and thus are an active retrogressive attack on moves forward in the opening and deconstruction of gender stereotypes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	savestheworld 2005-11-01 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	"No responsible mother or father would want their young or teenage daughter to use a restroom if they knew a man was in there" HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA right. watch out you irresponsible men-trusters! if a transgender person does me harm because i allow them into "my" space that she was not biologically assigned to, i might think about it. but i really don't see that happening. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	belladonna_ 2005-11-01 06:13 pm UTC (link)
	Unisex bathrooms -- they're so controversial that every home has one. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	savestheworld 2005-11-01 06:51 pm UTC (link)
	hahahahahha i really don't like big bathrooms with stalls. women aren't 'allowed' to poop there it's a whole different post waiting to happen!!! and what if i wear my keeper? how am i supposed to clean it? gah. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	adrinna 2005-11-01 08:00 pm UTC (link)
	we're not allowed to poop in public bathrooms? holy shit! no one told me! ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	savestheworld 2005-11-01 08:18 pm UTC (link)
	i didn't know until i was in college agh! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	adrinna 2005-11-02 02:52 am UTC (link)
	ha. at my college we had candles and stuff in the dorm bathrooms to make sure it always smelled like flowers (since woman poop smells like flowers..... riiight). at my office i'm one of the few women on the floor so it doesn't matter if i poop!!! WHEEE! (Reply to this) (Parent)

x_mass
2005-11-01 05:14 pm UTC (link)

Ok two parts
there has been a wide spread accepatance of transexuals in certain parts of feminism for pretty much forever - however it wasn't shared by some of the louder voices in 'radical feminism' or as like to describe them 'recationary feminism'. Ther still are issues with transexual includion in for example michigan womyns fetival depite numerous transexuals being allowed to take part as long as they remain stealh

the feminist movement as whole has been fairly good about certain forms of transgender behaviour or transgenderism, for example seeing drag king, femme men and butch women as ok. Since they extend the gender boundaries whilist staying within sex boundaries meanwhile they also have issues with other groupsnamely transvestites, cross-dressers, drag queens and obviously transexuals. these they see as reinforcing sex stereotypes, as can be seen in transexual empire - which as a critique of teh pychiatric oppresion of transexuals is pretty good it just blames the victims of the system, a bit like saying that women are asking to be raped by wearing short skirts and going out late at night.

btw I recognise that you seem to treat transgender as equal to transexual, but I choose not to use such exclusionary language. transgender was origonaly about inclusion not exclusion, it was not about m2F's and f2M's ist was baout choice and challenging people. Transgender is very much the daughter of feminism.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sophiaserpentia
2005-11-01 05:40 pm UTC (link)

It is true, i could have been more careful with my language in the original post. The primary feminist critiques i have seen have been opposition to transsexualism specifically, because they focus on SRS and the associated transition procedure. However, the MWMF trans-exclusion policy is aimed at transgendered women (and excludes many transgendered men as well), not just transsexuals. So the issue has been blurred a bit all around.

There have been some very valid criticisms of the way the psychiatric profession has handled the matter, as noted by you and by

foibey above. The transsexual process was developed during an age when psychiatry was very normative, seeing deviation from social norm as something to be avoided. It's time to revisit the foundation of the SRS process, and i think that feminism is well positioned to question that process in a way that does not alienate transpeople (as did the approach of Janice Raymond and others).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	x_mass 2005-11-01 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	so butch women and drag kings are excluded from MWMF as well? wow I knew they were strict but not that strict fundamentally I see there being little diffrence ins ome ways between feminism and transgender rights. Its about challenging the 'traditional' assumptions people have about gender (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

sophiaserpentia
2005-11-01 07:11 pm UTC (link)

so butch women and drag kings are excluded from MWMF as well?

Sometimes but not always. They are "born womyn" and so are technically included, but if they have a beard from using androgens...

Its about challenging the 'traditional' assumptions people have about gender

It is also about ending oppression. Women and transpeople are both oppressed, and so they seem to me natural allies.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dorktastic 2005-11-01 11:33 pm UTC (link)
	Butch women and drag kings are absolutely allowed to attend MWMF - they have a "no-panty check" policy for exactly that reason. Many FTMs also attend MWMF. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	x_mass 2005-11-02 02:43 am UTC (link)
	so MWMF have a m2f transexual exclusion policy but not a trangneder exclusion policy and clearly also welcome men so its not even a women's music festival then? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

dorktastic
2005-11-02 03:45 am UTC (link)

It's complicated because the policy is only articulated as "womyn-born-womyn" and different people interpret it differently.
MTF transsexuals are not allowed. Period. Several have attended, some probably still do and just don't tell anyone.
There are definitely people who identify as transgender who do attend (and perform in some cases). But in this case "transgender" would be referring to people who were female-assigned at birth. Some of them may id as FTM, and feel that they still belong in women-only/dyke space. Some might id more as genderqueer/gendervarient, but again be female-assigned. Some of the women who attend the festival do not feel that FTMs should be allowed to attend, and may even feel that transgender identities are inherently anti-feminist.
Here's a link to the camp trans website that explains it way better than me:
http://camptrans.squarespace.com/trans-inclusion-and-michfest/

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	x_mass 2005-11-01 05:16 pm UTC (link)
	As I have pointed out else where the poster put up that post a bunch of diffrent open spaces - however ist also links in google to a PORN site. so the question in my mind is that was this just a form of viral marketing seeking people to come to a porn site? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sophiaserpentia 2005-11-01 05:22 pm UTC (link)
	Perhaps. I don't know. I didn't come up with any porn when i googled the matter, but i didn't look very deeply. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	x_mass 2005-11-01 05:36 pm UTC (link)
	have a look at the bottom option on this google search http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Feminists%20Involved%20Against%20Sex%20Change%20Operations%22 or take a direct look here http://sex-in-bathroom.vanillapics.info/ (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sophiaserpentia 2005-11-01 05:44 pm UTC (link)
	That last link doesn't come up when you do the same search on the American site, google.com. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	x_mass 2005-11-01 05:58 pm UTC (link)
	I thought I was using google.com? god that really annoys me when google decides I want Uk when i don't (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sophiaserpentia 2005-11-01 07:08 pm UTC (link)
	Still, it's interesting that that link comes up at all. It could be a viral marketing thing as you say, but if so it's the most roundabout way i've ever seen. Is it common for porn viral marketing to count on people to google something like that? (Reply to this) (Parent)

dorktastic
2005-11-01 05:30 pm UTC (link)

I think it depends where you are and who you're talking to - and perhaps it's also a bit generational as well.
Trans stuff seems most accepted amongst the younger queer feminists, especially in big cities - they often know trans/genderqueer people (especially FTM people). Unfortunately, the same kind of acceptance isn't always given to MTF people. A lot of the supposedly trans-friendly feminist spaces that I see are really FTM/genderqueer friendly and exclude MTFs (not always actively, but still excluding).

(Reply to this)

	MOD NOTE drunkenatheist 2005-11-01 05:35 pm UTC (link)
	Please remove the link in your post. We ask that people not link to other communities as a way to prevent issues between our community and others. If you have any questions, please contact us as soon as possible. Thank you! DA (Replies frozen)

	reply to mod note sophiaserpentia 2005-11-01 05:42 pm UTC (link)
	I changed the link to point to the actual essay in question, and not the post in another community where i was made aware of the essay. Please let me know if this is insufficient. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: reply to mod note drunkenatheist 2005-11-02 06:30 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks! Linking to the article is fine, we just want to prevent any kind of intercommunity dramarama. ;) Thanks again. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bestdaywelived
2005-11-01 05:57 pm UTC (link)

I *have* heard of men sneaking into bathrooms to rape and abuse women - biological beings that are self-identified as men, that is. Trans women ARE women - the only reason one might be afraid to use the women's restroom would be the reactions of bio men and bio women around (i.e. violence against her because she's "not really a woman" and "going to hurt women").

I think that junk about "violating women's space" is absolutely ridiculous - if I'm in the bathroom, I'm probably just going to the bathroom. I'm not in there to talk about serious women's issues or things that men should be privy to. I'm just trying to relieve myself!

A feminist argument that I didn't see in this essay was that FTM transsexuals ( trans men ) get surgery and are thus granted the priveleges of men, leaving women ( and her oppresion )behind. This really pisses some women off, and I don't understand why.

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onewithbriteyes
2005-11-01 10:00 pm UTC (link)

Interestingly, the first time I encountered the argument you mentioned last was from a trans man preparing to undergo treatment and surgery. His biggest concern was that he not walk in the world as a man forgetting what kind of privileges he would receive in doing so and being perceived as such.

I have trouble understanding how trans men can be viewed as *less* oppressed than women. It's not like the privileged straight white man considers them "real men" anyway, right? (Not to assume that all straight white men are transphobic, but rather that the establishment which favors straight white men and affords them privilegs denied to others does not accept trans men and women.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	cyndisision 2005-11-02 01:01 am UTC (link)
	It depends on the degree to which the trans person is able to 'pass', and on how open they are about their transness. (Did I just make that word up?) (Reply to this) (Parent)

cyndisision
2005-11-01 05:57 pm UTC (link)

I used to be quite uncomfortable about trans issues, because I saw them as supporting a philosophy of essentialism that I was striving to break down. I had a lot of internal conflict about this, because it's my instinctive reaction to want to understand and support trans people, as an oppressed group, and welcome transwomen into my space. (Or perhaps be honoured to share space with transwomen.)

I'm still not 100% clear, but after doing some reading on trans-supportive websites I now think that the essentialism is being put forward not by the trans movement but by the psychiatric and psychological professions (the gatekeepers, as

foibey said). So once again we fall victim to the divide-and-conquer strategy of the patriarchy.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sophiaserpentia
2005-11-01 07:21 pm UTC (link)

I used to be quite uncomfortable about trans issues, because I saw them as supporting a philosophy of essentialism that I was striving to break down.

Yes, i can see that. It isn't biological essentialism of the sort that says you remain always what you were born to be, as i've seen employed in feminist transphobic statements, but a kind of cultural gender dualism that says "women are X while men are Y, and never the twain shall meet." In other words there is a total denial of middle ground or uniquely individual expression as an acceptable option. I too find that thought unsettling, and as someone who is transsexual and feminist i confess it gives me quite a lot of dissonance when i ponder the whole issue.

But "just being me" instead of "being a man" or "being a woman" does not end the emotional or psycho-social disconnect that brings me to transsexualism. It is not a solution, for me or many others; and though my life would be much simpler if i could talk away my gender identity, i can't.

However, distinctions between men and women are not the root cause of women's oppression. It is the way that distinction has been made into a rigid caste system which makes gender a tool of oppression. So going from man to woman or vice-versa does not in itself mean "upholding the oppressive paradigm;" i as a transperson am not a participant in oppression i am a subject of it, in that the reality of my identity is denied by the cultural oppression-justifying value system.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

krazyhippie
2005-11-01 07:42 pm UTC (link)

It reminds me of the second (Michelle Williams & Chloe Sevigny) section of If These Walls Could Talk 2. They rejected Chloe's character b/c at that time their form of feminism was accepting that femininity is no less than masculinity, so you should embrace it and be proud of it. So a woman who even wanted to dress masculine was seen as folding to the patriarchy or disrespecting femininity. It was a narrow view but it was only the beginning. I think we've gotten past that by now and are working on deconstructing gender roles and expectations, but it's hard to say because the people I surround myself with are a biased sample.

(Reply to this)

one_in_progress
2005-11-01 10:08 pm UTC (link)

Look, this writer may call herself a feminist but for heaven's sakes, she writes about "feminine chemistry" and "feminine privacy"!

I've seen some pretty compelling feminist arguments about sex change operations that (imo at least) are critical of trans theory without being bigoted against trans individuals. I've also seen some pretty compelling feminist arguments that argue strongly in favor of trans theory. But to hold up this crap as feminist and smear the feminist movement with it?

Let me just please pre-emptively ask you not to smear feminism for hypocrisy because 'feminists for life' oppose women's autonomy...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sophiaserpentia
2005-11-01 10:16 pm UTC (link)

Hmm, i thought i made it pretty clear in the second paragraph that my initial assessment of feminism as anti-trans does not hold from current evidence. It was only in the last two years that i found that anti-transsexualism was not widely held in the movement.

Since transpeople have been in the past the target of criticism by people calling themselves feminists, it's fair to ask how mainstream or widely-accepted anti-trans sentiment is in feminism.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Slightly Off Topic (more skewed than off)

hopeless_addict
2005-11-02 03:29 am UTC (link)

I've been reading about the issue of transgender and drag within Making Gay History. It talks a lot about how some women thought that drag queens because they dressed in feminine clothing were hurting the battle to destroy gender stereotypes.

Also, were I to read this article correctly, lesbians shouldn't be able to use the female bathroom. They might look at other women lustfully. That'd be terrible.

(Reply to this)

	luighseach 2005-11-02 11:47 am UTC (link)
	I think we have more information now. But I also don't think this is all new... (Reply to this)

	luighseach 2005-11-02 11:50 am UTC (link)
	And I just read the article. What a bunch of crap! Their organisation is called Fiasco. Let it be theirs! (Reply to this)

grey_and_purple
2005-11-03 11:37 pm UTC (link)

I'm a transwoman, and I've wished for a long time that we would just let MWMF go by. The battle is a poisonous, entrenched, and irresolvable stalemate, and I shudder at the long-term effect that it's having on both transwomen and women's-music fans.

I think that just as with any other really strong ideology (meant in the best sense), feminism has a way of being transformed by each generation into what that generation needs, and by each person into what that person needs. For whatever reason, back in the 1980's, the women's movement seems to have needed a harsh, doctrinaire, essentialist vision. I'm not going to speculate on why that might have been, but that's what it produced. It might have just been the tenor of the times -- the 1980's were one cold decade in America.

I suspect that transphobic feminists are usually transphobic first, and feminist second -- that is, they find or devise an interpretation of feminism to support their transphobic views, rather than developing transphobic views out of the principles of feminism.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sophiaserpentia
2005-11-04 05:44 am UTC (link)

I'm a transwoman, and I've wished for a long time that we would just let MWMF go by.

Actually, so do i. After contemplation and several conversations about the matter, my eventual conclusion was that, on balance our need as transwomen to be accepted as female does not outweigh born-women's need to work for building a space where they can feel safe. The argument is also, as you say, counterproductive for the transgender cause. There are much more important battles to fight. For example, only five states have enacted civil rights laws for transpeople.

I suspect that transphobic feminists are usually transphobic first, and feminist second

It seems to me that ultimately transphobia requires one to hold to some kind of gender essentialism -- which is not IMO compatible with women's liberation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

grey_and_purple
2005-11-04 07:11 pm UTC (link)

Actually, so do i. After contemplation and several conversations about the matter, my eventual conclusion was that, on balance our need as transwomen to be accepted as female does not outweigh born-women's need to work for building a space where they can feel safe. The argument is also, as you say, counterproductive for the transgender cause. There are much more important battles to fight. For example, only five states have enacted civil rights laws for transpeople.

Well, I'm much more concerned that fifteen years or so of constant pressure on this point have merely hardened positions on both sides and left people in a position in which they cannot afford to give one centimetre. By now, active support for the WBW policy is probably an absolute litmus test for any leadership role at MWMF, and we can thank Camp Trans for that. It's like Stalingrad -- so much face involved on both sides that nobody can back down no matter how much damage the battle is doing. We're at a tipping point now in which the toungest trans people and the youngest women's music fans cannot remember a time when the MWMF battle wasn't raging -- and that means the conflict is becoming institutionalised.

It seems to me that ultimately transphobia requires one to hold to some kind of gender essentialism -- which is not IMO compatible with women's liberation.

Well, yes, you're right, they're incompatible. But plenty of Christians have found or devised Christian justifications for racism, and never mind that Christianity and racist belief are incompatible. And for that matter, the Russian Bolsheviks found Marxist justifications for one of history's cruelest enslavements of the working class.

It's an irony that any belief system loose enough to be universal is loose enough to be twisted 180 degrees.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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