a corgi-dorable girl ([info]athenagrace) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2005-04-19 16:18:00
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Curious . . .
All right, I'm a bit new, and maybe this question pops up, like, daily, but I'm still interested in a varried perspective.

How do YOU, personally, define your own stance on feminism?

For me, it's about choice. Well, of course it's about choice, everyone screams. No, I mean all choices. I, as a woman, can choose between being pro-life or pro-choice. I can choose to take my husband's name or not, get married or not, marry a man or a woman. Hell, as destestable as it may be, I should have the choice to accept alternate lifestyles or be the first to yell dirty words at a couple of girls walking hands. I should be able to study molecular physics . . . or advanced homemaking . . . or advanced automotives.

Sometimes it irritates me when so-called feminists jump on someone who is making a choice that doesn't fit into their narrow ideal of a feminist. As if all feminists must be male-bashing (if not lesbian), leg hair growing, women studies majoring nazi's for the cause. If you choose to be that way, fine, great, that's super. And if you like to wax your eyebrows cause it makes you feel pretty, cool. And even if you shave your legs cause you want to appeal to a man, that's fine for me. Just let it all be YOUR choice.

And because I'm a little nervous that someone is going to doubt my "feminist" credentials, let me add that I have an undergraduate degree in science, took feminist literature classes, went to an all female college for christsakes, and there is a picture hanging up on the wall of my house with my husband in a kilt and me in pants, which we photoshopped to say "Who wears the pants in the family."
For those of you who are open minded, those "credentials" may seem silly or trite, but for those who need the credentials, I hope those are enough.



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Just real quick...
[info]justcari
2005-04-19 08:23 pm UTC (link)
I had to take a moment to respond to your using the word "nazi" in relation to a certain type of feminist. I like to make sure people know where the term feminazi originated, because I'm convinced very few people know the actual meaning of the word:

"According to Limbaugh, "a feminazi is a woman to whom the most important thing in life is seeing to it that as many abortions as possible are performed" "
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi

Anyway - more later ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Just real quick...
[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:25 pm UTC (link)
HAHA!

That is great!

Thanks!!!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Just real quick... - [info]justcari, 2005-04-20 12:38 pm UTC
A personal note and a MOD NOTE
[info]grrangela
2005-04-19 08:26 pm UTC (link)
I think the abortion question is a little more complicated than that. You can choose between abortion and birth for yourself, but is "choosing" a stance that denies those choices to other women really a feminist choice? Is it your choice to make? (I'm asking this because you said you can choose between "pro-life" and "pro-choice" in a list of other choices that would, or should, be purely personal, like your last name.)

And I don't care if everyone thinks I'm a lesbian who doesn't shave. There's nothing wrong with being a lesbian, or hairy, or a hairy lesbian. And as much as I love free speech, I don't think there's a damn thing feminist about yelling slurs at lesbians on the street. Homophobia is not in the slightest bit compatible with feminism. I'd be interested to hear how you came to the conclusion that it is.

Also, a mod note: don't compare feminists to nazis in this community, even the radical, loud ones who make you uncomfortable. Nazis slaughtered millions of people out of hate. It's disrespectful to radical feminists, and more important, it's horribly disrespectful to the survivors and families of survivors of the Holocaust, and to members of the persecuted groups.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE
[info]fooltheworld
2005-04-19 08:30 pm UTC (link)
As usual, [info]grrangela's words echo my thoughts much more articulately than I ever could. Word to everything she said, except that of course, I am not a mod... but I agree with that stance on the word "nazi" as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:34 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 08:40 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:44 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]dysgr8mystake, 2005-04-19 09:22 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 10:05 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 12:51 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]mickle, 2005-04-19 08:51 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 09:14 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 08:41 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 08:44 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:46 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-19 10:17 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 10:24 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-19 10:52 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-20 12:19 am UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 10:28 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-19 10:51 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]stephzilla, 2005-04-19 08:51 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 08:53 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]mickle, 2005-04-19 08:57 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]pretzelsalt, 2005-04-19 09:10 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]bikinikiller, 2005-04-19 09:26 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 10:08 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:11 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 10:06 pm UTC
*blink* - [info]trinityva, 2005-04-20 04:48 am UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 01:06 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]trinityva, 2005-04-20 02:05 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 02:06 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]trinityva, 2005-04-20 02:56 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 02:59 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]trinityva, 2005-04-20 04:23 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 04:30 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]trinityva, 2005-04-20 04:40 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 04:48 pm UTC
Re: *blink* - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-20 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brienf, 2005-04-21 06:40 am UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 09:39 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]jennifer0246, 2005-04-19 09:59 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 09:59 pm UTC
Re: A personal note and a MOD NOTE - [info]goodlookinout, 2005-04-19 10:39 pm UTC

[info]aflaminghalo
2005-04-19 08:26 pm UTC (link)
I find it interesting that you feel the need to support your post with credentials.

You're a woman who doesn't believe that she's less than. Surely thats enough?

Hi btw. Hope you enjoy the community.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Hehe,

I don't really ever think of quallifying myself as a feminist because, to me, I've always been one, but I was scared that there were those who might not, hmm, believe that I'm coming from their neck of the woods unless I give "qualifications"

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]hothead
2005-04-19 08:27 pm UTC (link)
As if all feminists must be male-bashing (if not lesbian), leg hair growing, women studies majoring nazi's for the cause.

I'm a little nervous that someone is going to doubt my "feminist" credentials

Hmm. Why ever would you be nervous about that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ratherberucking
2005-04-19 08:36 pm UTC (link)
shhh! keep your hairy legged lesbian agenda to yourself.

*rolls eyes*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 08:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kattlady, 2005-04-19 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nuclearmse, 2005-04-19 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 08:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bikinikiller, 2005-04-19 09:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belladonnalin, 2005-04-20 09:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prudentlike, 2005-04-19 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prudentlike, 2005-04-19 09:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kattlady, 2005-04-19 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prudentlike, 2005-04-19 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratherberucking, 2005-04-19 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frenchthebully, 2005-04-19 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]redstar826, 2005-04-20 01:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 09:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 09:58 pm UTC

[info]seekingsartre
2005-04-19 08:27 pm UTC (link)
"I should have the choice to accept alternate lifestyles or be the first to yell dirty words at a couple of girls walking hands..."

Though I agree that it's all about choices, I think that the point is to allow people to choose actions that don't infringe on the rights of others. Someone who yells dirty words at ANYONE isn't someone that I would want to know, period.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:44 pm UTC (link)
and me neither -- I actually have no tolerance for racial or sexual slurs . . . but could, in theory, a feminst choose to be that way? Or by doing so, does she negate the feminism -- and IF SO to that, what "rule"
of feminism did she break?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seekingsartre, 2005-04-19 08:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-19 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2005-04-19 08:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kattlady, 2005-04-19 08:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]heaumeau, 2005-04-19 10:54 pm UTC

[info]bestdaywelived
2005-04-19 08:31 pm UTC (link)
I have to agree with parts of what you said , and vehemently disagree with more.

A lot of what you say is about personal choice - I do agree that feminism is about choices. However , "pro-life" is about making a choice for another woman , which I think is completely wrong. I also think that "yelling dirty words at girls holding hands" is disgusting. NO "real feminist" would do that - it's woman hate and DISCRIMINATION. I don't care what kinds of classes you've taken , it doesn't make you a feminist. It makes you well-read or maybe well-versed in feminist theory , but not a feminist , per se.



(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seekingsartre
2005-04-19 08:37 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. Being a feminist, to me, is about your actions. Not about what books you have read or classes that you have taken.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bikinikiller, 2005-04-19 09:57 pm UTC

[info]threeliesforone
2005-04-19 08:32 pm UTC (link)
making the choice to take an active part in the oppression of others [ie: being "pro-life," or being "the first to yell dirty words at a couple of girls holding hands"] is not feminist.

but i guess that makes me "narrow-minded."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hothead
2005-04-19 08:34 pm UTC (link)
This has to be a troll post, right?

RIGHT?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]threeliesforone, 2005-04-19 08:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 08:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:24 pm UTC

[info]bestdaywelived
2005-04-19 08:34 pm UTC (link)
I have to agree with parts of what you said , and vehemently disagree with more.

A lot of what you say is about personal choice - I do agree that feminism is about choices. However , "pro-life" is about making a choice for another woman , which I think is completely wrong. I also think that "yelling dirty words at girls holding hands" is disgusting. NO "real feminist" would do that - it's woman hate and DISCRIMINATION. I don't care what kinds of classes you've taken , it doesn't make you a feminist. It makes you well-read or maybe well-versed in feminist theory , but not a feminist , per se.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:56 pm UTC (link)
personal pro-life beliefs do not affect anyone else . . . it's only when those pesky laws get passed or they start to stand in front of clinics

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cookieavalanche
2005-04-19 08:34 pm UTC (link)
There are so many ways to define feminism, most of them very valid in some way.

I personally do not just define feminism around gender issues. I think the ultimate feminist goal would be to create a new world with feminist eyes-- eyes that don't believe in domination, in either/or thinking, in hierarchies and Others. So a truly feminist world would be one in which nobody, black or white, male or female, straight or gay, human or nonhuman, and the earth itself, would no longer be subject to human domination.

I realize how idealistic this is, but I don't think there's anything to lose, because patriarchy isn't working for anybody and never will.

That's just me, though.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Do you think we can ever get that color/gender/everything blind?

I really wish we could as well, and I experienced a bit of it in my college (although the gender thing not so much, cause, um there weren't any guys)

But I think that's a great ammendment to feminism -- where it because to equal that it even transcends the "fem" of feminism and perhaps just become, what, peopleism?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mascot, 2005-04-19 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cookieavalanche, 2005-04-20 08:11 pm UTC

[info]ratherberucking
2005-04-19 08:39 pm UTC (link)
For me, feminism is about being judged by my worth, not by my gender and it's about promoting changes in the attitudes that there is a "woman's place". A "woman's place" is wherever she damn well wants it to be, provided she has the skills and abilities needed to secure said place.

However, I must say a lot of your post was pretty obnoxious. Why would you want to yell slurs at people for holding hands?

I yell "get a room" when people make out in front of me, but I yell it at straights and gays equally. (In fact, I tend to yel it more often to the straights.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:48 pm UTC (link)
All right, there's an answer -- your view of feminism -- thank you

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jlina
2005-04-19 08:40 pm UTC (link)
I think it is important to realize that choices are not made in a power vacuum. Like, you say "Hell, as destestable as it may be, I should have the choice to accept alternate lifestyles or be the first to yell dirty words at a couple of girls walking hands." but so long as there is a power imbalance which codes queer sexuality as being wrong, or codes any choice as having a right and a wrong way to chose, then we have work to do.

To me, feminism is about breaking down the power imbalances and power gradients in a way which lessens (and some day removes) the way in which the people in power enforce their will on those with less power. This is why I think feminism needs to have strong ties in other areas of anti-oppression work, and has to be constantly willing to challenge the status quo.

And that's the problem with "Just let it all be YOUR choice." We live in a media state, and there is always the question of what is our choice, and what is imposed on our self-consciousnesses by an outside force. Body image, for example, something you cited above, is reflected in advertising, television programs, education... so while I agree that one can shave or not shave if they want to, it is important to examine why our culture values shaving over not-shaving... and who set up that value judgment in the first place.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:53 pm UTC (link)
"To me, feminism is about breaking down the power imbalances and power gradients in a way which lessens (and some day removes) the way in which the people in power enforce their will on those with less power"

That's a great answer -- I really like how that is phrased :)

Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]stephzilla
2005-04-19 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I, as a woman, can choose between being pro-life or pro-choice.

I think you're confused about what pro-life and pro-choice is. If you're a feminist that fits the standards you've listed, you're pro-choice. Pro-choice doesn't mean that you're going to get an abortion or chose not to get pregnant. You can be personally pro-choice and still have a baby. It sounds like you're politically pro-choice and personally pro-life.

Sorry if I'm reading in too deep.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:50 pm UTC (link)
I like the insight, but I think you are.

I think a WHOLE bunch of people got confused by the I statements, which were figurative, not literal.

I don't yell at people . . . I am not pro choice . . . I think people are all pretty much groovy, and I've spent the better part of my life being called a "femenazi" (sorry, but that's what I'm called)

But, it's interesting to get people's deffinitions of feminism.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stephzilla, 2005-04-19 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 09:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stephzilla, 2005-04-19 09:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-21 08:15 pm UTC

[info]ladyartemisa
2005-04-19 08:49 pm UTC (link)
i will say again what others have said.

being a feminist you cannot be prolife, because being prolife takes away choices. you can personally not want to have an abortion but as a feminist you should respect your fellow feminists that would.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:50 pm UTC (link)
That's a really good personal deffintion -- thanks :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]stephzilla, 2005-04-19 09:01 pm UTC
thanks! - [info]ladyartemisa, 2005-04-19 10:53 pm UTC
off-topic - [info]papergreen, 2005-04-19 11:55 pm UTC
Re: off-topic - [info]ladyartemisa, 2005-04-19 11:59 pm UTC
Re: off-topic - [info]papergreen, 2005-04-20 12:14 am UTC
Re: off-topic - [info]ladyartemisa, 2005-04-20 12:25 am UTC
Re: off-topic - [info]papergreen, 2005-04-20 02:09 am UTC

[info]kattlady
2005-04-19 08:49 pm UTC (link)
I think that feminism is absolutely about choice. I think that it's ok to be "pro-life" personally, feeling that as a person one could never have an abortion for whatever reason, but "pro-life" in the group mentality is making choices for other women. That's not ok with me. That isn't choice, period.

And yeah, apparently I'm way narrow minded because I don't think that I should be subjected to harassment when I walk down the street with my girlfriend. I think feminism has a few simple guidelines. Like... don't hate women. Seems kind of... bizarre. Discrimination should never be acceptable, certainly in a movement that is partially born out of the need to stop discrimination to get where we need to be.

One more thing. The nazi thing is really offensive. I am not a nazi, regardless of the number of men I don't like (which, fun fact, is smaller a number than most people who tell me I'm a man-hater would like to you believe), the girls I kiss, the pro-choice rallies I go to, the days I go without shaving my legs, and the feminist theory classes I attend (also quite a small amount, because I'm only a wee high school student). That stereotype is really offensive to me and to most women I know. I couldn't do enough to actually deserve the title "feminazi", except things that nazis do, but since I also hold onto the title of pacifist, I guess not.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]athenagrace
2005-04-19 08:52 pm UTC (link)
"I think that it's ok to be "pro-life" personally, feeling that as a person one could never have an abortion for whatever reason, but "pro-life" in the group mentality is making choices for other women. That's not ok with me. That isn't choice, period. "

I couldn't agree more. That was put beautifully.

"the girls I kiss, the pro-choice rallies I go to, the days I go without shaving my legs, and the feminist theory classes I attend "

You sound like a younger me ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

*headwall*
[info]sookail
2005-04-19 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Hmph.
As coming from a country where the leg hair problems do not exist, b/c nobody shaves `em there, this obsession with leg hair is becoming sort of creepy. Also, do you assume that all the 750,000 women who do not shave their legs here, are nazis?

I`m not doubting your "feminist credentials", whatever they might be, BTW.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: *headwall*
[info]stephzilla
2005-04-19 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Hah. I go to an international boarding school and my room mate is Russian. When she got here she started shaving her body hair. Hah!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: *headwall* - [info]sookail, 2005-04-19 09:06 pm UTC
Re: *headwall* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 09:04 pm UTC
Re: *headwall* - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-19 09:07 pm UTC

[info]snidegrrl
2005-04-19 08:58 pm UTC (link)
Someone (who is even a member of this forum) once said, "not every feminist's choice is a feminist choice". I have to say I agree with that. For all the reasons several people list above, and many more, I can't simply support every choice any woman makes and call that feminism.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rackletang
2005-04-19 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]foursixths, 2005-04-19 10:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snidegrrl, 2005-04-19 11:09 pm UTC

[info]dysgr8mystake
2005-04-19 08:59 pm UTC (link)
Feminism is the idea that whoever you are, whatever you are, you chose to be, and that is respected. We have made it more in relation to women because it is women that have to fight harder to be respected for the same thing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]stephzilla
2005-04-19 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Yes, also, the feminist movement was started in order to further Women's Rights. It's my theory that it's more spread-out today because we've done a good job (not saying the job is done though).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nuclearmse
2005-04-19 09:16 pm UTC (link)
I think the reason that there have to be feminist principles and guidelines is, exactly as some people said above, that feminism is a political movement with directions and goals. I think all feminisms share the basic idea that women suffer from some form of oppression. Different feminisms define and understand that oppression differently and therefore posit different solutions, but most do see that gender oppression cannot be viewed in a vacuum but must be analyzed as it interacts with or even co-constructs racism, classism, heterosexism, etc.

So distinctions between what choices are more personal and should be accepted without comment and which are political and subject to critique is defined by those principles. (This is a different issue than analyzing cultural preferences for certain arrangements, such as shaving or dressing. You can analyze those in ways that do not directly attack people who participate in those aspects of the dominant culture.)

Someone's choice to never have an abortion doesn't affect me; someone's decision to protest clinics does. Someone being unable to overcome personal homophobic feelings is sad to think about but not necessarily harmful; someone shouting epithets at me as I walk across campus is clearly harmful.

If feminism ever becomes a code word for approving of every single thing women do, no matter how damaging or hateful it is to other women, then it will cease to have any power at all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]drinkissdaisy
2005-04-19 09:30 pm UTC (link)
If feminism ever becomes a code word for approving of every single thing women do, no matter how damaging or hateful it is to other women, then it will cease to have any power at all.

exactly, it just shouldn't be called feminism anymore if that's the case.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]drinkissdaisy
2005-04-19 09:28 pm UTC (link)
I, as a woman, can choose between being pro-life or pro-choice.

men can too. and this is a person's choice, not necessatily a feminist's choice. i agree with you that it irritates me when so-called feminists jump on someone who is making a choice that doesn't fit into their narrow ideal of a feminist, but i believe that being aloud to chose fits the ideal of the feminist movement, and that being pro-life cancels that right completely. i think you are contracticing yourself by saying you are all about being able to chose anything in life, and at the same time maybe being pro-life. it just doesn't feel right in my mind to read that.

(Reply to this)


[info]auroraluna
2005-04-19 09:56 pm UTC (link)
Credtentials? Are you kidding?

Sometimes it irritates me when so-called feminists jump on someone who is making a choice that doesn't fit into their narrow ideal of a feminist. As if all feminists must be male-bashing (if not lesbian), leg hair growing, women studies majoring nazi's for the cause.

...if I wasn't so against censorship, I'd ask you to remove the term "nazi" from that post. I'm so goddamn sick of people referring to feminists as nazis. You know, Rush Limbaugh coined the term "feminazi"? Do you enjoy supporting his bullshit?

How fucking rude. Your assumptions offended the shit out of me. Sure, you say, "If you choose to be that way, fine, great, that's super," as if that detracts from how you're obviously putting down that type of person? You've gotta be kidding me. But hey, why am I wasting my time - I'm a radical feminist, you smart, independent, liberal feminists don't bother listening to my crazy FEMINAZI ranting! Besides, you've got CREDENTIALS. Because, you know, we all need to prove that we're feminists here! In my opinion, you've proven everything BUT.

I cannot believe this: "male-bashing (if not lesbian)" - oh god, no, not those crazy lesbians! They give all pretty hetero feminists a bad name, what with their not being sexually attracted to men and all! Oh, and for your information "male-bashing" is not the province of any feminist, NOR IS IT A MANDATORY ASPECT OF BEING A FUCKING LESBIAN.

Jesus fuck me Christ. Sometimes I think this community is going to shit.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bikinikiller
2005-04-19 10:06 pm UTC (link)
i just want to say that i appreciate you.

us crazy lesbians have a place in this world too...
but hell i run into lesbians who think it's weird i don't shave my pits so... y'know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]drinkissdaisy, 2005-04-19 10:16 pm UTC
Haha. - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 10:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sookail, 2005-04-19 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-19 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kangeiko, 2005-04-19 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ovariancyst, 2005-04-20 12:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ovariancyst, 2005-04-20 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 12:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 12:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ovariancyst, 2005-04-20 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 12:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ovariancyst, 2005-04-20 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ovariancyst, 2005-04-20 02:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-20 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]omuse, 2005-04-21 03:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-21 03:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2005-04-21 11:08 pm UTC

[info]drinkissdaisy
2005-04-19 10:15 pm UTC (link)
oh, and being a lesbian and a feminist doesn't necessarily go automatically together.

(Reply to this)


[info]frickinmuck
2005-04-19 10:38 pm UTC (link)
wtf? am I the only person here who read this post and understood that your post was rhetorical in nature? it's obvious to me that you don't personally hold the views you were describing, but were just stating a "what if" scenario.

I think you have asked an interesting and valid question, and I'm a bit surprised at how few people have actually chosen to answer it.

I do agree with what everyone else has said about pro choice. it truly is "pro choice." it's entirely about respecting a woman's right to choose for herself whether to remain pregnant or not. therefore "pro life" (which is better termed "anti choice" is not compatible with feminism.

and feminism is simply a belief that women and men are, and therefore should be treated as, equals. despite what many people have said here, I believe that theoretically a woman believing and acting toward that goal could believe a wide variety of things that aren't what we'd traditionally consider typical of a feminist. that said, though, I'd say that for most people, feminism naturally leads toward an overall value of compassion for the oppressed and a desire for equality for everyone, in every circumstance. because at it's root feminism really is about equality, plain and simple.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bikinikiller
2005-04-19 10:44 pm UTC (link)
the problem everyone has with the post isn't that we think she holds these views, but how she puts them across.

maybe we're a little tired of being called nazis, even in jest. even if she doesn't really mean it. even if she doesn't shave her legs herself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-19 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nosmokegirl, 2005-04-20 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 01:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slytherinblack, 2005-04-19 11:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 12:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-20 12:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-20 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-20 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-20 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-21 01:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-21 01:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-21 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 02:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frickinmuck, 2005-04-21 03:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-21 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 04:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-21 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 04:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-21 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-21 04:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]athenagrace, 2005-04-21 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]peaceofpie, 2005-04-21 07:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]grrangela, 2005-04-21 08:20 pm UTC

[info]heaumeau
2005-04-19 10:47 pm UTC (link)
And because I'm a little nervous that someone is going to doubt my "feminist" credentials, let me add that I have an undergraduate degree in science, took feminist literature classes, went to an all female college for christsakes, and there is a picture hanging up on the wall of my house with my husband in a kilt and me in pants, which we photoshopped to say "Who wears the pants in the family."
For those of you who are open minded, those "credentials" may seem silly or trite, but for those who need the credentials, I hope those are enough.


anyone who thinks you need 'credentials' to be a feminist needs to re-examine their thinking.

(Reply to this)


[info]smileydee
2005-04-19 11:28 pm UTC (link)
Feminism is not (necessarily) anarchy. If I choose to go on a murderous rampage, that is not feminist, and I would not expect feminists to support me because I'm a woman making a choice.

Feminism, like any political movement or belief system, demands that you have certain core values. The most basic of which is that a feminist must believe that women should have the same opportunities and rights that men enjoy. Everything else stems from that core belief. To me (and to most feminists) it seems logically necessary that if we believe women should have the same opportunities and rights as men, we should also believe that all persons should have the same rights and opportunities. So therefore we believe in the right of a homosexual couple to walk down the street without being harrassed, and we believe in the right for women to exert control over their bodies, and we believe that minorities should not be discriminated against.

I suppose if you don't believe in those values, you could call yourself a feminist and argue your point of view, but that doesn't mean that we should agree with you. As I said, feminism is not the same thing as anarchy, and we do have the right to object to other people's disgusting and hateful choices and declare them against our core values as feminists.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bookgrrrl
2005-04-20 01:14 am UTC (link)
I understand that within your argument you mean anarchy as lawlessness.

Feminism however, for me is intricately linked with my thoughts on anarchy. For many people, myself included, Anarchy is "a free society organized along lines of mutual aid and cooperation." It means the end of hierarchical power structures- a truly egalitarian society.

Some people cling to those structures in the belief that they will protect us. I say that they keep us in fear. And in fear there is no freedom.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]smileydee, 2005-04-20 01:29 am UTC

[info]redstar826
2005-04-20 01:26 am UTC (link)
to me, feminism is simply the idea that political,economic, and social rights, etc should not be based on a person's gender.

(Reply to this)


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