Kerianne H. ([info]kerikeri) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2005-01-29 01:28:00
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Current mood: annoyed

Older men/younger women-- bad idea, good idea, or none of anyone's business?
I know that Hugo Schwyzer's weblog has been linked here at least once before; right now I'd like to direct your attention to a couple of his recent posts, here and here, concerning feminism and relationships between older men and younger women.

To summarize, Mr. Schwyzer seems to believe that in most if not all cases, these relationships are harmful to the woman, particularly if she is under 21; according to him, they invariably lead to objectification and exploitation. He argues that older men should not regard younger women as sexual or romantic prospects, because these women do not have the capacity to deal with adult sexual relationships; instead, older men have a responsibility to be positive role models, mentors and protectors.


Personally, as a college-age woman in a happy, healthy, long-term relationship with an 8-year age gap, I find his generalizations offensive and condescending. He seems to have a highly stereotype-based perception of these relationships-- the man is always a predator who's only interested in sex and/or manipulation, the woman is always a childlike innocent who's so desperate to sit at the big kids' table that she gets herself in over her head. What's more, he generalizes about all age-gap relationships based on the ones that contain obvious power imbalances, such as teacher/student or mentor/protégé relationships; the thought that people of different ages could meet and interact as friends and equals doesn't seem to occur to him.

I won't deny that relationships with age gaps can result in the older partner taking advantage of the younger, but that can happen in relationships where both partners are around the same age as well, as can objectification, pressure to go farther than one's comfort zone sexually, and all the other things he blames on the age gap. (To prove this I need only look around me at my friends and peers in school, whose disastrous love lives often make me very glad I'm dating someone who's past the college stage and isn't involved in the convoluted soap opera of campus life.) The issue is not age, but maturity; any relationship in which one partner is drastically less mature than the other is likely headed for disaster, but to assume that age is a perfect indicator of maturity is unfair and lazy thinking.

I also find it disturbing that he dismisses the fact that these women are legal adults, most of the time arguing as if they're indistinguishable from children. I don't believe that people magically gain perfect decision-making skills and become entirely self-sufficient the moment they turn 18, but I do think that once people reach that age they deserve to be treated and respected as adults unless they prove they are incapable of relating on an adult level. Sure, some 18-year-old girls probably aren't ready for an adult sexual relationship (though I find that qualifier strange too-- sleeping with a 25-year-old would scar them for life, but sleeping with another 18-year-old would be just peachy?); others are. It's impossible to make any sort of blanket statement, and defaulting to treating all of them like ignorant babies who don't know what they want and can't be trusted to make their own decisions certainly isn't the answer.

In general, the whole idea that young women need to be sheltered and protected and put on pedestals because they're too fragile to play with the big boys really, really bothers me. Of course women deserve to be respected rather than treated as objects, but going so far in the other direction as to deny women the right to choose certain types of relationships isn't particularly respectful either.


Any thoughts? Is he being a responsible and respectful male feminist, or is all of this a load of condescending paternalistic dreck? I'm interested to see what sort of responses the issue will get from the members of this community.




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[info]ministry_victim
2005-01-29 06:59 am UTC (link)
I think it really depends on the age to maturity gap. I've known 17 year old girls in relationships with 25 year old men where the maturity was lacking. This situation, in this regard, would prove true, because the girl in question was little more than a warm body and a stepping stone to "guy cool."

And i've known 25 year old women in relationships with 17 year old guys where the opposite is true, and he ended up becoming her trophy, because he was her young athlete thrall (in one case) and younger "prodigy" stud thrall (in the other). The age is coincidence.

I don't like the generalization, though. I agree with you there. But in my own personal experience, I had set in stone limits at 21 that I would never ever date anyone under 20, and every time I broke them (three times), I ended up regretting it. I often found a considerable gulf in maturity between she and I. Now I don't even look twice at anyone under 22.

I'm curious about whether or not it works the other way around. With someone my age looking upwards towards an older woman?

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[info]kerikeri
2005-01-29 08:30 am UTC (link)
I'm curious about whether or not it works the other way around. With someone my age looking upwards towards an older woman?

Unfortunately I think a lot of people would have a double standard about that, because there's an assumption that guys a) won't get as emotionally involved, so if the relationship goes sour it won't leave lasting psychological damage, and b) are more adventurous and willing to go further sexually, so they're less likely to be pressured into anything. (There's a comment on one of the entries that expresses this general opinion, and I imagine it's probably a common one.)

That's what bugs me the most about this whole thing-- it's all about sexist stereotypes. Girls are fragile, girls will do anything to be loved, girls need to be protected from the big bad nasty world (and from themselves). I know society makes it so easy for women to be exploited (partly by socializing them into patterns of behavior that match the stereotype, unfortunately), but there's got to be a better way to deal with that than to keep perpetuating the same oversimplified gender roles.

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[info]kahvi
2005-01-29 05:22 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too...
Of course there can be problems associated with age differences in relationships, but to say this this is gender-dependent is just silly and just a little bit sexist.

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[info]mittimus
2005-01-29 07:10 am UTC (link)
I'm still considering the rest and, as a rule, i like to think that an age difference should make no difference. Putting that aside, this coment of his (in the first blog entry) did strike me -

'I've heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her. The first catcall, the first leer, the first whistle, the first inappropriate remark -- these are seldom forgotten, and they leave deep and enduring wounds.'

I had that experience a number of times in my early-mid teens (as one of those so-called 'early developers'). Getting smart comments from boys my own age seemed to be part of the general school yard games - and they were going through as many puberty changes as I was. But, out in the world, getting looks/comments from what were, to me, 'grown men' did cut deep.

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[info]emobus
2005-01-29 09:27 pm UTC (link)
I was certainly perturbed the first time I was ever hooted at on the street -- I must've been 14 -- but I wouldn't say that it left "deep and enduring wounds." However, that might be a fact of my personality specifically. My younger sister just turned 14 last month, and I don't know how she would be able to deal with such comments, and I certainly don't think she should have to. I accepted it and came to expect it, but we shouldn't have to settle for that.

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[info]absolution
2005-01-29 07:10 am UTC (link)
i think that like most things it's contextual, middle of the road, it-depends sort of stuff. and i don't think there's anything wrong with keeping in mind that a (and this is a general, longstanding) warning that people will cloak submission in the form of agency might be sound at all times. that said i also don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that generalizations in either direction that clearly do as much to remove agency are unwelcome too. and mm, for me, i suppose it's the simple/multitiered/messy. :)

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[info]absolution
2005-01-29 07:13 am UTC (link)
which is to say--who in their right mind on either side of this position thinks they can put some all encompassing quantitative cutoff point onto when respect becomes submission or exploitation? that kind of blind highfalutin ridiculously underdeveloped sweeping criteria...it's silly on either side of the board.

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[info]roselady
2005-01-29 07:42 am UTC (link)
I think it's all relative. I've been hit on by men old enough to be my grandfather and it makes me sick. However I have a nineteen year old coworker thats been seeing her boyfriend for four years, and he's thirty nine... I suppose it depends on the situation. However I'm reading lolita right now, and while entertaining, it makes me a little sick from time to time...

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[info]morecake
2005-01-29 01:23 pm UTC (link)
I do hva s ensible comment which i will add below, but your icon is the best thing IN TEH WORLD!!!
(big fan of Jack/Will romance :-))

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[info]roselady
2005-01-30 12:22 am UTC (link)
Tee hee hee... isnt that sexy?

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-01-29 08:06 am UTC (link)
Hmm. I'm very mixed on this. On one hand, it's really none of my business who dates who. And yet, I am very wary of relationships between an elder man and a young woman. Why? It's an old sign of patriarchy, that's still lingering around today. It used to be custom for young, naive, uneducated girls to be coupled with an elder man. So when I see such a couple, little sirens go off in my head.

Like others have said, it depends on the individual couple. But I still can't wash the bad taste from my mouth.

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[info]linnetli
2005-01-29 08:19 am UTC (link)
I think that he has a point, but is perhaps oversimplifying. Specific relationships are different than the way the media presents the issue--for example, if a friend my age (I'm 21) told me she was dating a much older man, and she was happy with this, I wouldn't necessarily have an issue with it. However, I dislike the way it's presented in the media and culture. Scarlett Johansson in particular seems to play a lot of these roles.

Part of the problem that I have is that it seems like a certain segment of society is starting to see young women, not even out of their teens, as 'better' or 'more attractive' than a woman in her twenties or older. That, to me, is disturbing. That the media ideal is of a woman so young...I don't know, it bothers me. I'm not even sure that I can fully articulate why. When an actress like Lindsay Lohan is presented as, not just being sexy and also young, but sexy BECAUSE she's young...there's something that hits me as a bit askew there.

I do have a problem with making sweeping generalizations about other people's relationships. Not everyone is the same, and age doesn't have to be a big deal. In this case, though, I think there's enough to be concerned about that raising the question 'hey, what's going on here?' about the general phenomenon is valid, and doesn't necessarily have to condemn everyone involved in a relationship of this sort.

If a friend of mine who was nineteen, say, asked me what I thought about her dating a 28 year old, I'd trust her judgment of course..but I'd also suggest she look at his track record. If he seemed to exclusively pursue women much younger than him, I'd be wary.

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hmmm
[info]athena25
2005-01-29 12:48 pm UTC (link)
Ah, Mr. Schwyzer. Well meaning no doubt and certainly full of good intentions. I read the article with interest and throughout was struck by how he moves from general discussion of a non-gendered age gap - the relationship between himself and his students (male and female, one presumes) and yet draws conclusions from this that apply only to sexual relationships between younger women and older men. Odd, I thought. And not without problems.

He has a trace of the old fashioned gallant about him, and whilst the desire to be a good and decent man is a valuable one, a better, fairer one might be the desire to be a good and decent human being. And the need to stop treating young women like sexual objects could be started by stopping viewing them as women and seeing them as people.

On the age front i think there is a gross mix up between age and maturity. i've met a lot of childish 30 yr olds and some wise 17 yr olds. Now, I appreciate that this is generally an exception.

I'd be a lot happier with the article if it was about how each person in a relationship should assume the responsiblity of pushing for a mutual understanding and awareness of the emotional, sexual etc. etc. wellbeing of the other and of themselves.

Now that's a mature attitude to sex.

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Re: hmmm
[info]kerikeri
2005-01-29 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I'd be a lot happier with the article if it was about how each person in a relationship should assume the responsiblity of pushing for a mutual understanding and awareness of the emotional, sexual etc. etc. wellbeing of the other and of themselves.

I totally agree. One of the things that bugged me most was the idea that he seems to see respecting someone as a person and being sexually attracted to him/her as mutually exclusive. It may be difficult to strike that balance in a society that encourages men to objectify women, but I find it odd that he doesn't even discuss the possibility that these relationships might have levels and depth beyond pure sexual exploitation.

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[info]silverspar
2005-01-29 12:51 pm UTC (link)
While I think this dude has his heart in the right place (especially considering that he's a teacher and shouldn't be hitting on his students), I think he underestimates the self-knowledge many young women are capable of. Also, I think he overestimates the effect and power of the male "predator" -- honestly, I've been more traumatized by fellow women than a man has ever managed.

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[info]morecake
2005-01-29 01:46 pm UTC (link)
Is it possible that some young women long for sexual validation and attention from older men?
I think he is being if not sexist then one sided here - young people [of all genders] long for validation, often sexually but intellectually and emotionally too - from older people. That's the way it is, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

I think the real issue is, as many people say, maturity - which can happen at vastly different times for different people. Human relationships work on far too many levels to put this kind of binary 'older partner bad / younger partner good' distinction on.

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[info]___starla
2005-01-29 02:10 pm UTC (link)
i didn't read his posts (if i need to please tell me), but i think it depends on the maturity of both individuals involved. i do find it annoying though when 28-year olds are acting interested in me, AND I'M EIGHTEEN. i'm not even in university yet.

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[info]annis39
2005-01-29 02:38 pm UTC (link)
personally, i think he's advocating good, responsible male behavior. yes, he's generalizing, but y'know what? when you're talking about situations that extend beyond your own life, you rather have to generalize. and i don't think he's generalizing anything particularly untrue. i remember what i was like when i was 16-20-- a big part of my "wanting to be seen as an adult" was also "wanting to be seen as sexual," since that was one of the few still-taboo frontiers. older men were attractive that way; they had experience that my male peers didn't, and therefore seemed like more weighty sources for validation (since obviously they knew what they were talking about, being older and all). my daydreams aside, though, it is probably good that my early sexual experiences were with men of my own age and maturity levels, because i certainly was not mentally equipped to deal with more mature men, and neither were any of my female friends. no, this isn't the case for all young women, but it's the case for enough young women that Schwyzer is committing no great sin by generalizing about it. also keep in mind that he adds to the end of first essay, "I will not sit in judgment of others' relationships, save those that are obviously exploitative. Clearly, not all young women are equally mature at the same chronological age," which flatly acknowledges most of the things that you seem to have problems with. he's trying to cover his ass and avoid being a stereotyping jerk. give him a break, okay? i find it encouraging that there is a man who is trying to redefine masculinity and maleness in a healthy, respectful way in light of increased female sexual aggression.

on the complaint that he doesn't address the problem of older women and younger men: well, it's his blog, folks, not a magazine article. he's talking about his own personal observations and experiences. i'm honestly glad that he doesn't presume to generalize about an older woman's experience with this sort of thing. there are enough differences between male and female experience that it is different being an older woman dealing with younger men (i'm speaking out of my own experience teaching young men who are 7-10 years younger than me; i'm a grad student teaching mostly freshmen) that a man should not feel that he can generalize it.

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[info]kerikeri
2005-01-29 05:23 pm UTC (link)
also keep in mind that he adds to the end of first essay, "I will not sit in judgment of others' relationships, save those that are obviously exploitative. Clearly, not all young women are equally mature at the same chronological age," which flatly acknowledges most of the things that you seem to have problems with.

Yes, because disclaimers always make everything all better. Sorry, but "covering his ass" really isn't good enough for me, especially when he makes comments that directly contradict that ("When we are talking about men over, say, 27 and women under 21, they are almost invariably a very poor idea." and "So many young women do get indignant when you make the case I've made here. But so many "older" -- and wiser women (over 30) get it far more clearly.").

give him a break, okay? i find it encouraging that there is a man who is trying to redefine masculinity and maleness in a healthy, respectful way in light of increased female sexual aggression.

I'm not trying to say that he's a horrible person; yeah, his attitudes are better than the average anti-feminist guy's attitudes, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to let him off the hook when he says something I strongly disagree with because "oh well, it could be worse." People here who make insulting generalizations don't get a free pass because "he/she's still a feminist, so give him/her a break," do they?

Besides, I don't happen to feel that he's being particularly respectful of a pretty significant section of the female population. How old does he believe women have to be before they're allowed to know their own minds, I wonder? He makes it clear again and again that he doesn't believe young women can really be trusted to make decisions about their sex lives, that despite the laws they shouldn't be treated any differently from children, that even if they think they're happy and fulfilled they're deluded and will change their minds. I fail to see in what universe this can possibly be considered "respectful"-- respect isn't about protecting people from making choices that might not be good ones or that they might regret, it's about trusting them to make their own choices and deal with the consequences themselves.

well, it's his blog, folks, not a magazine article. he's talking about his own personal observations and experiences. i'm honestly glad that he doesn't presume to generalize about an older woman's experience with this sort of thing.

But it's okay for him to presume to generalize about a younger woman's experience? (Of course it is-- young women don't even know their own minds, so they need random men to tell them how they feel and how they should live their lives, right?)

I really don't see how he's "speaking from experience" here-- unless there's something he's not telling us (which is possible, given the wording of a few comments), he's never had one of these relationships, and even if he has, he's not discussing them from the point of view of the man. He's talking about those poor stupid girls and how their blind desperation for love makes them do things they'll regret when they're older, and how men have a responsibility to save them from themselves. You don't see anything at all condescending or presumptuous about that?

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[info]annis39
2005-01-29 06:38 pm UTC (link)
i think you're missing my point. in a nutshell: he's not being sexist. he's being age-ist.

I really don't see how he's "speaking from experience" here-- unless there's something he's not telling us (which is possible, given the wording of a few comments), he's never had one of these relationships, and even if he has, he's not discussing them from the point of view of the man. He's talking about those poor stupid girls and how their blind desperation for love makes them do things they'll regret when they're older, and how men have a responsibility to save them from themselves. You don't see anything at all condescending or presumptuous about that?

1.) you've taken my comment out of context. I was referring to the bitching about "why is he only talking about young women? how come he doesn't talk about young men and older women too? young women are no more emotionally fragile than young men! he's being sexist!" when i talked about his speaking from his own experience. he isn't presuming to make observations about the older woman's perspective in an older woman/younger man relationship. i applaud him for that.

2.) he's not trying to assume the younger female's POV. he's speaking from his own experience as an older man who has been the object of the young female gaze, which has obviously made him uncomfortable because of what he knows that he knows by mere virtue of more years dealing with his own and other people's sexuality and what he knows they probably don't know because they haven't had as much time to deal with their own and other people's sexuality. he's not saying that older men need to protect young women from themselves. he's saying that older men have a responsibility to think beyond their own desires and consider how their greater experience in relationships with women might give them unfair emotional advantage over younger, less experienced women. he's working from a male viewpoint, not a female one. he's not saying that younger women should be sheltered and protected from male sexuality, period. he's observing that in general, 25-year-olds have much more and more varied experience with human sexuality than 18-year-olds, and that 25+ people need to keep that in mind when dealing with significantly younger prospective sexual partners. in many cases, it would be incredibly irresponsible for a 25-year-old to imagine that s/he would not have the advantage of greater emotional experience over an 18-year-old, not matter what sex. he's talking about younger women because he happens to be a heterosexual male. if he were homosexual, i'm sure he would probably be referring to young men. speaking as a 26-year-old woman who can look back on her behavior and understanding as an 18-year-old woman, i think he has a very good point. if you really think that in general 18-year-olds have just as much experience with human behavior and emotions as 25+-year-olds, i recommend you give yourself about 5-6 years and then re-think the question.

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[info]kerikeri
2005-01-29 07:33 pm UTC (link)
he's observing that in general, 25-year-olds have much more and more varied experience with human sexuality than 18-year-olds, and that 25+ people need to keep that in mind when dealing with significantly younger prospective sexual partners.

Keep it in mind, yes. What I take issue with is the conclusion that in all or most cases this means the relationship is unworkable (and not just unworkable, but actively damaging). I would have no problem if he was simply warning about the possible problems that these situations can cause and the potential for abuse/manipulation/objectification/etc. they create, but he seems to be framing things as "this is a line that should never be crossed," and that bugs me. (It bugs me less in terms of student/teacher relationships than in terms of relationships with age differences but without direct power imbalances, but seeing as he waves off the idea that there are fundamental differences between the two situations, I'm interpreting this as a rule he'd like to apply across the board.)

I guess I also have a problem with the idea that "experience" is the end-all and be-all of maturity-- that unless one has had multiple sexual partners and/or relationships, one must be naive and "innocent" and clueless about the ways of the world. It unfairly values one kind of lifestyle over another-- what of those who aren't particularly interested in casual dating/sex? I believe there are ways to become mature and prepared for an adult relationship without undergoing the usual series of awkward dates with pimply teenage boys, but maybe that's just me.

if you really think that in general 18-year-olds have just as much experience with human behavior and emotions as 25+-year-olds, i recommend you give yourself about 5-6 years and then re-think the question.

One, thank you so much for the patronizing "you'll understand when you're older, dear" crap, because obviously this conversation was far too civil and respectful up to this point and really needed a dose of good old-fashioned condescension.

Two, I fail to see where I've said anything about these relationships being positive "in general"; what I'm saying is that though he pays lip service to the idea that his generalizations cannot be applied across the board, his actual statements seem to contradict that, and through most of his argument he completely fails to acknowledge that there could possibly be anything healthy or respectful or good about them in any case. I'm not saying that one generalization should replace another, I'm saying he should have some respect for the nuances of human interaction rather than reducing everyone to numbers. And maybe I am taking it a little personally, because I can't help bristling at the fact that if every man lived by these strict rules of interaction, I'd probably be stuck getting pawed by some fratboy in a dorm room instead of in a happy, healthy, mutually respectful relationship that has helped me in more ways than I can count. Call me crazy, but I really wouldn't consider that preferable, even though some would argue that it's more "age-appropriate."

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[info]joyful__girl
2005-01-29 03:11 pm UTC (link)
He seems to assume that young women are capable only of being a real human being or sexually appealing. Personally, I hope that's poor wording on his part (and granted, as previous commenter mentioned, it's his personal blog, so whatever).

As an 18 year old in a relationship with a 27 year old, I can vouch for the fact that it has not been emotionally scarring. If and when we were to break up, I can see myself being hurt and upset, but such is the case for pretty much any breakup.

I don't see how an emotionally traumatic relationship with an older man would be any different from one with someone her own age or even younger.

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[info]kerikeri
2005-01-29 06:04 pm UTC (link)
I don't see how an emotionally traumatic relationship with an older man would be any different from one with someone her own age or even younger.

Yeah, that puzzles me too. As I said above, hardly a day goes by that I don't feel grateful that I'm not involved in the chaos of the college dating scene, and I find it somewhat laughable that anyone would try to claim that it's "healthier" than a relationship like mine simply because of the ages of the people involved. Yeah, age-gap relationships can have certain problems associated with them, but what he fails to address is that relationships between two college students can come with their own specific set of issues as well. There's the "fraternity culture" stuff going on (encouraging college guys to act immature, boorish and often sexist), the fact that neither partner has any sort of security or concrete plans for the future (which means stuff like money and career issues are likely to be far more of a strain on the relationship if it survives beyond college), the fact that it's harder to escape the pressures of college life if all your significant connections are also on campus and dealing with those pressures, etc.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too hypocritical-- I'm not saying college relationships are bad or harmful, just that they can have some specific problems as well that are generally analogous to the specific problems that can occur in age-gap relationships. Basically, anytime two people try to have a relationship there are going to be dynamics that make it difficult, whether they're because of age or gender or race or religion or lifestyle differences or etc. etc. To say that one sort of dynamic creates insurmountable problems while ignoring the others seems kind of ridiculous to me.

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[info]nothingmuch
2005-01-29 03:57 pm UTC (link)
I don't know about anyone else's relationships, but in my experience, what he says makes some sense.

I was with a 26-year-old when I was 17, and it wasn't a good relationship (though it lasted five years and resulted in a baby). It was exciting at first, but later, I began to realize that he saw me as nothing but a sex object. We had very little to talk about, he always ordered me around, and I obeyed because he was more like an authority figure than a partner.

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[info]hooper_x
2005-01-29 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Well, if you think about contemporary American society, we glorify the shit out of the Older Man/Younger Woman relationships. Watch our movies. Sean Connery with Catherine Zeta Jones? Rich Gere with Winona Ryder? These men are old enough to be these women's fathers. Our society prides women on being young (and therefore, fertile).

I know a guy who's 28 years old and regularly, consistently, dates girls ten or more years his junior.

He is a creep.

-HX

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[info]jfpbookworm
2005-01-29 05:14 pm UTC (link)
I think those celebrity relationships are not glorified; what's glorified is the older man who's able to date a desirable younger woman. The relationship itself is seen as primarily sexual (or as trading sex for money, security, status) and fundamentally lacking.

As a 27-year-old who's dating a 20-year-old, it bugs the hell out of me when people assume that it's purely sexual, or because "I can't find someone my own age."

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[info]pull_rank
2005-01-29 08:23 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. It's also really insulting for people to assume that a 20-year-old has nothing more to offer than sex and youth.

I also find it interesting that you rarely hear people hemming and hawing about relationships between two men of different ages.

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[info]trinityva
2005-01-29 04:59 pm UTC (link)
This always seems so weird to me, because I've dated several older men, and they never tried to push me around or use me. If anything, I had my life in better order than they did.

Then again, maybe it's okay to have a 15 year age gap when the younger partner is 21, but not when s/he's 16 or something.

*shrug*

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[info]pull_rank
2005-01-29 08:26 pm UTC (link)
That's probably true sometimes, but I dated men in their 20s when I was 15 and 16 and I don't regret it at all (I even married one of them, some years later). I really believe that it depends so much on the individual people involved that it's almost impossible to make any generalizations (obviously, younger than the age of consent gets a little tricky, but that's an entirely different matter).

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[info]trinityva
2005-01-29 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. I didn't start dating until I was in my 20's, and I feel that, for me, that was probably a good thing (though I felt really strange about it back then.) But I can only say how mature I was or wasn't then, and generalizing that to other people is bad juju.

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[info]foolishowl
2005-01-29 07:52 pm UTC (link)
I think there's considerably more nuance in Hugo's position than you're acknowledging. On another blog, for instance, he had nothing but praise for this essay by bell hooks, which he said he used as the basis for drafting a policy on student/faculty relations for his college. hooks's essay makes a point of criticizing the oversimplification of simply prohibiting student/faculty relations, on the grounds that such relations aren't always exploitative, and blanket prohibition simply denies the erotic, rather than really engage the problems of power in male/female relationships.

I do think there's something of the "gallant" about Hugo's views. He tends to over-idealize monogamy, in my opinion. But I think he takes great care to avoid being patronizing or paternalistic.

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[info]thermopylae
2005-01-31 04:17 am UTC (link)
Well said. Like you, I am in a long-term relationship with a significant age gap(twenty years, to be exact) and never have I felt exploited, or objectified. Quite the opposite, really.

I'd go with the latter--condescending, paternalistic dreck.

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[info]kore_eleusis
2005-01-31 07:00 am UTC (link)
I think he has his heart in the right place, and frankly I'm sort of endeared to him since I see so many men rushing to support older men/younger women relationships without acknowledging the potential danger.

It depends. I think there is a definite tendency towards exploitation in relationships with an age gap, but generalizing on so broad a subject is rarely useful.

I would say the women who choose to enter these relationships should do so with a great deal of caution, but then again, I'd say caution is useful in any relationship. I would also say that while young women are certainly objectified, constantly, so are older men. It's entirely possible that a younger woman would seduce an older man just for the sex. I've seen enough lust for older male actors to last a lifetime.

I've also always been fascinated with the reverse, the older woman/younger man relationship. The dynamics of that have never been fully explored, whereas the opposite has received much press...

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