Ruadhan J McElroy ([info]newdance) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2004-12-08 17:28:00
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Post from my own LJ
( Circumcision)



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[info]xigua
2004-12-08 10:51 pm UTC (link)
I'm not cut, but I've experienced what I need to see, and I would like to be.

And I would like for every guy to see for themselves and choose. I don't care if it's your religion, it's not your right. (I'm sorry, I have just as much beef with Judaism as I do with Christianity..not sure about proper Islam as I haven't seen any through the whole "OMG TERRORISTS LOL" media crap. Also, never go to orthodox Williamsburg, Brooklyn, ever ever EVER.)

By the way, it's a shame that it's easier to masturbate when you don't have a foreskin. You can't pull it back (motion is really restricted) until around when you start grade school. ..Though, I'm not sure why they'd want to masturbate before grade school.

Anyway, I've had relatives whose mothers decided not to circumcise them, and not only that, but to rip the foreskin back and scrub under it. That's probably worse than circumcising him in the first place.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]newdance
2004-12-08 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Well, yes, it's probably worse -- cos they were uneducated or wrongly educated.

It's like how, in the US, women are taught that tampons are the best or only internal menstrual option (even though there are other options) and then aren't told until after they aggrivate cervical or uterine cancer that they're told of other options and that the BLEACH in tampons probably helped the cancer come earlier.

Americans are some of the most poorly educated people on the planet and, bizarrely, they believe they're the most advanced.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]xigua, 2004-12-08 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2004-12-08 11:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 05:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2004-12-09 06:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2004-12-09 06:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-09 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-09 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-10 06:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 07:00 am UTC

[info]pokeyturtle
2004-12-09 05:21 am UTC (link)
preschoolers and younger kids masturbate for the same reason grade school kids do--it feels good. they generally don't understand what exactly they're doing, but it's still normal behavior.

and agreed about the ripping the foreskin back--ouch!!

when i was pregnant with my younger child (she's a month old now), i talked with the father about circumcision. my older child is a boy and i had him cut but i did not understand the issue then. (he's eight going on nine now.) i told matt that i did not want this child circ'd if i wound up having another boy. he agreed. i then explained to him about the foreskin not retracting til the child is older, and i'm glad i did because he, being cut, had no idea.

this isn't exactly something they go over in sex ed in fifth grade or so. when kids in the u.s. can get sex ed at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 05:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladysin, 2004-12-10 10:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 10:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 10:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladysin, 2004-12-10 10:43 am UTC

[info]kattheripper
2004-12-09 07:26 pm UTC (link)
yes islam does perscribe circumscision. I think that's a trait of all Abrahamic religons.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 07:44 pm UTC

[info]childings
2004-12-09 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I think that partial circumcision is best. My boyfriend is Jewish, and he still has a lot of foreskin left. When you have a bris, they cut some of the foreskin from the bottom of the penis. When the penis is partially erect, you can't even tell he isn't fully circumcised. But having the extra foreskin there really helps a lot when it comes to sex, especially when giving handjobs, etc.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]frightened
2004-12-08 10:59 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, but the removal of the foreskin is not on a par with the removal of the clitoris, let alone with infibulation.

As it happens, I'm against male circumcision as well - it seems self-evident to me that arbitrarily cutting bits off anyone without their consent is not on. Nevertheless, I do think it takes away from quite how much damage female circumcision is designed to do when people say male circumcision is just as bad.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tubesy
2004-12-08 11:01 pm UTC (link)
Ditto.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I repeat:
[info]newdance
2004-12-08 11:02 pm UTC (link)
John Harvey Kellogg first marked infant male circumcision as a means of stamping out masturbation.

Don't you DARE tell me that male circumcision isn't about infringing upon one's sexuality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-08 11:04 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-08 11:45 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-08 11:50 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-08 11:56 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 05:53 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 12:18 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:19 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:21 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 10:09 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: Part 1 of 2. - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 10:08 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: Part 2 of 2 - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 10:15 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: Part 2 of 2 - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 10:19 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]childings, 2004-12-09 11:39 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 12:28 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 06:53 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 12:48 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 12:49 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 01:31 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]fatbobthecat, 2004-12-11 12:56 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-11 01:11 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]fatbobthecat, 2004-12-11 01:14 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 01:37 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]fatbobthecat, 2004-12-11 01:07 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 12:27 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 12:27 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:24 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 09:48 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 09:54 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 10:21 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]ladysin, 2004-12-10 11:50 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 11:55 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]ladysin, 2004-12-10 11:51 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 11:56 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 12:50 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]frightened, 2004-12-08 11:05 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]isolatedexile, 2004-12-08 11:10 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-08 11:16 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]pretzelsalt, 2004-12-08 11:24 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 05:57 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]jfpbookworm, 2004-12-09 06:40 am UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]kattheripper, 2004-12-09 07:31 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 07:43 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]jfpbookworm, 2004-12-09 08:09 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 08:13 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]jfpbookworm, 2004-12-10 02:23 pm UTC
Re: I repeat: - [info]fatbobthecat, 2004-12-11 12:35 am UTC

[info]auroraluna
2004-12-08 11:48 pm UTC (link)
I agree.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]frightened
2004-12-08 11:01 pm UTC (link)
Also, any chance you could warn people that they're going to see a naked bloke if they click that link?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]newdance
2004-12-08 11:05 pm UTC (link)
Well, my LiveJournal exists to give my friends-list and my readers more wang each week than they'd normally get.

LiveJournal has the option of using Image Placeholders if you don't want to see certain images.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-08 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-08 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-08 11:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 05:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 12:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 12:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-09 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pretzelsalt, 2004-12-08 11:09 pm UTC

[info]verrucaria
2004-12-08 11:02 pm UTC (link)
Well, there are legitimate data that show that men with circumsized penises are less likely to pass the Human Papilloma Virus their sex partners (HPV, depending on the kind, can help to cause ovarian cancer). However, you can still get HPV from a circumsized man, especially since the virus can reside off the penis.

And (if I'm not mistaken) somewhere in Europe, an HPV vaccine is being developed--though I doubt it'll even make it to the U.S. because "it would excouraged people to have sex." (Grrr...)

To be honest, I don't really have a personal problem with the fact that male circumcision is being done, but how it's being done (without aenesthesia). Over all, it's not the best idea civilization has ever come up with, and more and more pediatricians are against it. I was really surprised when my sister had her son circumsized (he's 4.5 now).

(Sorry about playing the devil's advocate in the beginning.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]xigua
2004-12-08 11:05 pm UTC (link)
Anesthesia apparently makes the skin there weird so they can't work. Instead, as my friend informed me (she saw her brother's bris), they get the baby drunk. Which I find strange. Drunk =/= Unconscious

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cranbonite, 2004-12-08 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-08 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cranbonite, 2004-12-08 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xigua, 2004-12-08 11:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:08 am UTC

[info]newdance
2004-12-08 11:10 pm UTC (link)
Well, there are legitimate data that show that men with circumsized penises are less likely to pass the Human Papilloma Virus their sex partners (HPV, depending on the kind, can help to cause ovarian cancer).

That's debatable.

And (if I'm not mistaken) somewhere in Europe, an HPV vaccine is being developed--though I doubt it'll even make it to the U.S. because "it would excouraged people to have sex." (Grrr...)

Well, if I hear news about it hitting the European market, I'll be egging on a friend of mine to go on vacation.

To be honest, I don't really have a personal problem with the fact that male circumcision is being done, but how it's being done (without aenesthesia). Over all, it's not the best idea civilization has ever come up with, and more and more pediatricians are against it. I was really surprised when my sister had her son circumsized (he's 4.5 now).

Seems a bit like fence-sitting.

You don't really have a problem with it, but you were surprised that your sister mutilated her son?

You're only qualm is the lack of anesthesia?

Seriously, now -- certain anesthetics can't be administered to infants as, in adequate doses, they can be fatal. Regardless, it's a human rights issue. I mean, hell, cut off the baby's little toes and pinky fingers -- those serve less of a function than foreskin.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]verrucaria, 2004-12-08 11:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]krissikarma, 2004-12-08 11:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-09 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 11:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]krissikarma, 2004-12-10 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]krissikarma, 2004-12-10 04:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-10 06:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 06:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]krissikarma, 2004-12-10 09:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 09:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]childings, 2004-12-12 08:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 06:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lttlredcorvette, 2004-12-09 01:09 am UTC

[info]meredith_mae
2004-12-08 11:30 pm UTC (link)
What does [secular] infant male circumcision teach us, as a society? If nothing else, it teaches us that the pain of little boys is necessary while the pain of little girls is something to be avoided. Even many of the Muslim groups who practise female circumcision ofen wait until the girl is older -- thus associating pain with womanhood -- while little boys are forced to subconsiously believe that pain is a lifelong necessity.

American feminists are, larely, female chauvinists either calling themselves or merely being labeled as "feminists" so the true concept of human rights seems lost on them when (1) it is applied to the male of the species and (2) it pertains to something they refuse to admit they are undereducated on. Ignorantly, they refuse to acknowledge that large-scale practiced (and predominantly secular) male circumcision says the same thing about a society as it's "sister" practice -- or, if they do, it's brushed off as "OK, cos it's applied to guys, you know? I mean, women suffer enough, right?"



Actually, if you want to get technical, it's not sexism against males. Orginally, religious (Jewish) circumcision can be seen as being biased against females, since the bris is a ceremony only male infants participate in and only males could, therefore, seal the covenent Abraham made with God. In that regard, women weren't really a full part of the religion. Of course, in order to be Jewish you have to have a Jewish mother... *mulls that over*

5,000 years ago it was fine, by the way, since lots of nasty stuff happens when dirt and sand get trapped under foreskin. It was more of a health issue. Kind of like HPV living under there. *shrug*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]xigua
2004-12-08 11:38 pm UTC (link)
There's nothing you could possibly do to get sand/dirt under it..well, there is, but nobody usually masturbates while buried underground.

Besides.

How many people could possibly have HPV?

It's like cutting off someone's toes to prevent athlete's foot.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-08 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xigua, 2004-12-09 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]meredith_mae, 2004-12-09 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xigua, 2004-12-09 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]this_marionette, 2004-12-09 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 01:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2004-12-09 05:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 12:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]meredith_mae, 2004-12-09 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xigua, 2004-12-09 03:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluebuckeye, 2004-12-09 03:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 08:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-09 12:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pretzelsalt, 2004-12-08 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]meredith_mae, 2004-12-09 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:23 am UTC
Shameless flogging of community
[info]anngwish42
2004-12-08 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Could you re-post this to [info]cut_uncut, the circumcision debate community? I'd be interested to see the response you get.
And FWIW, I think the difference between male circumcision and female genital mutilation is not a difference in kind, but it's definitely a difference in degree.
Not that I'm a fan of circumcision - my son's intact.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Shameless flogging of community
[info]newdance
2004-12-09 06:24 am UTC (link)
OK, I just got back from dinner-and-movie with the ex-husband, so a-crossposting I shall go. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]auroraluna
2004-12-08 11:41 pm UTC (link)
"In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement."

What a psycho.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]newdance
2004-12-08 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Yes, yes he was.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]xigua, 2004-12-09 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auroraluna, 2004-12-09 01:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 06:27 am UTC

[info]angelvomit
2004-12-08 11:43 pm UTC (link)


Thank you very much for saying things in a way most people yell at me for.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]newdance
2004-12-08 11:59 pm UTC (link)
No problem. I usually do that -- some people say it's a fault, I say it's an underappreciated virtue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jfpbookworm
2004-12-09 01:35 am UTC (link)
Eh, whatever. It may not be the best thing to inflict on an infant, but I find that most of the anti-circumcision discussion online centers around telling people that they ought to feel victimized (with a halfhearted justification that it's "for the children" which I don't buy because of the sort of forums the discussion inevitably takes place in), and what good is that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]yakkette
2004-12-09 05:36 am UTC (link)
Word. It seems that they engage in the sort of "culture of victimization" that anti-feminists accuse feminists of so often.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]twowayaddiction
2004-12-09 02:08 am UTC (link)
haha. meaty wang, indeed.

(Reply to this)


[info]yakkette
2004-12-09 05:35 am UTC (link)
Oh yes, poor men, they are horribly traumatized. That's why all the circumcised men that I know can't orgasm easily. Oh, no, wait....

It's completely erroneous - not to mention just plain stupid, and a tad misogynistic - to try to compare Female Genital Mutilation with male circumcison. Perhaps if say, the entire head of penis was chopped off, then the skin of the shaft was cut and sewn to the sides of the thighs - THEN you might have a case.

If you want to oppose circumcision because you feel it's wrong, fine, be my guest. But do so with arguments that actually work.

Oh, and you're also completely ignorant about this:
Additionally, it is not a required "right of passage" in the Jewish religion. Encouraged? Yes. Required? No. In fact, many modern Jews, in growing numbers even, are seeing no sense in having infant boys circumsised (with the exception of life-or-death situations) and feel that it is a decision best left up to him, later.

Wrong. It is seen as a requirement for a boy or a man to BE a Jew by the vast majority of Jews. Yes, there is a small movement of those who have decided to try to change this or not do it, and actually I support them, but you need to get your facts right. On the acceptance scale that's one step below trying to start a movement to make it okay to eat pork. It goes way, way beyond "encouraged." By all religious authorities, it is considered required.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]newdance
2004-12-09 06:29 am UTC (link)
No it's not required.

I know what I'm talking about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yadfothgildloc, 2004-12-09 07:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 08:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadfothgildloc, 2004-12-10 07:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inkybloater, 2004-12-10 11:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadfothgildloc, 2004-12-11 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fatbobthecat, 2004-12-11 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadfothgildloc, 2004-12-11 03:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fatbobthecat, 2004-12-11 03:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadfothgildloc, 2004-12-11 04:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadfothgildloc, 2004-12-11 03:17 am UTC

[info]hyoung
2004-12-09 10:33 pm UTC (link)
I often cry when I try and think about the time they cut off my foreskin. I'm sure it would be very traumatic if I could remember.

Does anyone really care about this issue?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]childings
2004-12-09 11:30 pm UTC (link)
Yes. I do.

Why remove anything from your body like that? It was put there for a reason. And sex is a lot more pleasurable when there is foreskin on the penis. Otherwise it feels similiar to a peg roughly popping in and out of a hole to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 11:44 pm UTC

[info]childings
2004-12-09 11:29 pm UTC (link)
I did a huge paper on circumcision for an Health class I had in college. I eventually came to the conclusion that there was no real reason to circumcise children (unless for religious reason.. and in that case, I'd like to point out that Jewish circumcision is totally different than surgical circumsion... for one thing the entire foreskin is not removed). I realize that people can choose to circumcise their babies, and that's okay. But from the research I did, in the past, a lot of hospitals just did it automatically without even asking the mother, which I found horrifying.

People who say it's for health reasons: unless you have a really tight foreskin, you should be fine if you just wash under the foreskin. Women have a lot of folds in their genital area... smegma can build up under those folds just like it can under the foreskin. The solution? Wash yourself down there. For Christ's sake, that's all you have to do. I'm not going to take a knife to myself and remove the skin around my labia because I'm worried about getting infected down there. (Female circumcision... that's another topic. But I do find it interesting how more people jump up and down about that than they do about male circumcision.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]childings
2004-12-09 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Whoops, I should have wrote "inside my labia". O_o;

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-09 11:39 pm UTC

[info]hyoung
2004-12-10 12:18 am UTC (link)
"Why remove anything from your body like that?"

Why not? You said in your other post that there is no health reasons not to. It's kind of like getting a hair cut or tattoo. Why get your ears pierced?

"It was put there for a reason."

Care to enlighten me on this reason?

"And sex is a lot more pleasurable when there is foreskin on the penis. Otherwise it feels similiar to a peg roughly popping in and out of a hole to me."

Good thing I'm not having sex with you then. My whole (no pun intended) point is: male circumcision is trivial. I have heard no facts for or against male circumcision. Why make a mountain out of a molehill with this issue?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]childings
2004-12-10 06:10 am UTC (link)
I don't have my ears, or anything on my body, pierced. I don't have tattoos. I don't shave. Your hair: guess what? It's dead. It's not living tissue. Just like the ends of your fingernails. Funny how it doesn't hurt when you cut it, unlike your genitals.

Foreskin was put there for a reason. I've had sex with numerous men, and foreskin helps ease the penis into the vagina. For me, sex with cut men was a lot more painful. Some women like this sensation, but I think that the foreskin allows for more pleasurable sex. It cushions the penis as it goes in and out.

If it wasn't meant to be there, it would fall off. It isn't a trivial issue. If you want to be cut, that is fine. But YOU should get to make the decision. Or at least the mother should. The practice many hospitals have had of automatically circumcising male babies is horrendous. They should at least ask the mother what she thinks. (I don't know how often this goes on nowadays, but traditionally all babies were done this way.) Also, doctors have botched a lot of surgical circumcisions causing serious problems.

I suggest you do more research before you accuse me of making a mountain out of a molehill. If you read about it you will find there are health detriments to both having a circumcision and not having one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 06:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 12:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 12:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-12-10 01:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-12-10 01:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fallofrain, 2004-12-10 07:01 pm UTC

[info]newdance
2004-12-10 01:25 pm UTC (link)
PLONK!

(Reply to this)


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