beautiful_quest ([info]beautiful_quest) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2004-11-23 09:41:00
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sexism in children's movies breaks me heart, arrg.
(I also posted this in my personal journal)

DO NOT SEE THE SPONGEBOB MOVIE!

The entire premise of the movie centered on Patrick and SpongeBob's quest to "become men" so that they can overcome their obstacles.

One great character, Sandy the Squirrel, is completely ignored. She's a powerful, outspoken female who enjoys karate! A great role model for little girls, but she has hardly three lines in the entire movie.

The ONLY female character was a wimpy little Princess Mindy whose main role was standing in the background helplessly saying "Daddy, NO!" to her hot-tempered father King Neptune, or using her "mermaid magic" to encourage Bob and Pat to complete their quest, saying "ONLY YOU can do this!" despite the fact that she herself is present and able-bodied.

This female "role model" is unable to stand up to her father or anyone else, and is praised entirely for her "compassion"... and that's it.

There were several little girls in the audience, and I cringed just about every three minutes at such lines as "you have to be a MAN to be a manager! That's why they call it MAN-ager!"

I was almost entirely unable to enjoy this movie because of the rampant sexism.

Did anyone else see this movie, and if so, did you pick up the same "vibes" that I did??

(Post a new comment)


[info]pescivendolo
2004-11-23 05:50 pm UTC (link)
I saw it, and I think you're overreacting. The SpongeBob cartoon has several female characters, one in particular that's rough and tumble and holds her own (Sandy the Squirrel).

The whole becoming men part of the story didn't seem to be perpetuating the idea that only men can do adventurous things. They're boys, so it's not like they're going to grow up to be women. It was a dichotomy between kids and adults, not between women and men.

And Mindy was annoying, but she did very often stand up to her father and get things done. She was resourceful and smart.

And my Lord, it's the Sponge Bob cartoon. I promise it won't harm your kids and their sense of gender equality if they go see it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]hothead
2004-11-23 05:54 pm UTC (link)
It was a dichotomy between kids and adults, not between women and men.

So, I assume this Sandy the Squirrel character was involved in a similar struggle to become a woman?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]pescivendolo, 2004-11-23 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2004-11-23 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pescivendolo, 2004-11-23 06:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]robynchick, 2004-11-23 06:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pescivendolo, 2004-11-23 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2004-11-23 06:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madamjolie, 2004-11-23 06:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2004-11-23 06:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mscontroversy, 2004-11-23 07:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dysgr8mystake, 2004-11-24 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2004-11-23 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]animeg3282, 2004-11-24 04:31 am UTC
Well played.
[info]everwatcher
2004-11-23 08:16 pm UTC (link)
They're boys, so it's not like they're going to grow up to be women. It was a dichotomy between kids and adults, not between women and men.

Of course, I don't assume that no one will share an opinion with [info]beautiful_quest, but you're sharing an opinion with me. I was planning on noting the point quoted above.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Well played. - [info]the_living_end, 2004-11-24 12:07 am UTC

[info]panic_girl
2004-11-23 08:44 pm UTC (link)
They're boys, so it's not like they're going to grow up to be women.

Possibly a little OT but...
why not? Plenty of boys grow up to be women. Now THAT would be a plot twist!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]isolatedexile, 2004-11-23 09:10 pm UTC

[info]pokeyturtle
2004-11-24 02:47 am UTC (link)
when was the last time you saw a children's movie about girls becoming women? that highlighted girls in something other than a traditional gender role?

yeah, that's what i thought.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]globedoc, 2004-11-24 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hotcoffeems, 2004-11-24 03:55 am UTC

[info]meredith_mae
2004-11-23 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Although I see where you're coming from, and I often get outraged at sexism in the media, I have to side with the other poster. I haven't seen the movie yet, but it sounds like "man" in this sense is used to mean "adult." I don't think it has to do with women, necessarily.

There are many more blatant sexist things I see everyday. Most television commercials, for instance. Look at ALL comercials for laundry detergent, household cleaning supplies, and food that's being fed to children (mama's got the power of clorox, choosy moms chose Jif), and it's always the mother who is responsible for housework, laundry, and children. If there's a man in the commercial at all he is indifferent or incompetent (JC Penney runs commercials with children running wild at home with dad while the mother is out shopping). On the other hand, all yard care things (any kind of lawn mower or weeding tool, or grass fertilizer), contain men. Men do lawn work! Unless it's flower gardening, then it's older women.

There's more blatant sexism in terms of depiction of "Traditional" gender roles on television everyday than in an animated movie. Although I won't deny there ARE some sexist movies and television shows directed at children which reinforce gender stereotypes (and don't even get me started with heterosexism in the media), consider the source. Consider what happens everyday. It seems like you're polishing brass on the titanic, you know?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]hothead
2004-11-23 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Um, what? It's not sexist when "man" is used to mean "adult?" Am I in feminist bizarro world again? Oy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]meredith_mae, 2004-11-23 07:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2004-11-23 07:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panic_girl, 2004-11-23 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]emobus, 2004-11-23 07:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hothead, 2004-11-23 07:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pescivendolo, 2004-11-23 09:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beautiful_quest, 2004-11-24 05:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]meredith_mae, 2004-11-23 07:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hotcoffeems, 2004-11-24 12:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2004-11-23 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordlucan, 2004-11-25 12:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beautiful_quest, 2004-11-23 09:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2004-11-24 02:51 am UTC

[info]hiya_toots
2004-11-23 06:18 pm UTC (link)
I haven't seen the movie, but I do love the spongebob squarepants cartoon. I'm sure that the majority of the kids seeing it love the cartoon too, which clearly depicts Sandy as stronger, more agressive, and a lot more intelligent than the other characters. I'm willing to bet that children's opinion of Sandy won't be lowered just because she has a small role in the movie. but again, I have not seen the movie. I'd also like to add that I think sandy is annoying.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]jeun
2004-11-23 06:53 pm UTC (link)
She's my least favorite character. Haha

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]globedoc, 2004-11-24 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pescivendolo, 2004-11-23 09:53 pm UTC

[info]absolution
2004-11-23 06:43 pm UTC (link)
maybe what everyone's said is right, i don't watch spongebob so i dunno. but anyway, out of context at least, that "MAN-ager!" quote? lame lame lame.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lordlucan
2004-11-25 12:10 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, not exactly Noel Coward, it is?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(Ah, bollocks...) - [info]lordlucan, 2004-11-25 12:11 pm UTC

[info]jeun
2004-11-23 06:52 pm UTC (link)
I saw it, thought it was cute, and don't think that it was to become "MEN!" but to become adults/grown-ups/etc. and not kids anymore. The whole "kids rule!" overtone was great. I mean, they even said it. Though if there were more chicks in the cast... that'd be nice.

I mean, I don't think the kids would pick up on anything sexist like that. If they do, then they can rise above it. Still, if they don't see the movie, there's shit everwhere proclaiming the same "ideals". I know, they won't pick up on it, but it'll affect them anyway. Not having sexism in the Spongebob movie won't stop sexism (that'd be cool if it did, heh.)

Although the song about being men was pretty stupid. I spent the rest of my movie laughing harder than most of the kids in the cinema... :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]jeun
2004-11-23 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and because I disagreed, someone's going to pick apart what I say... so apologies in advance.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]night101owl, 2004-11-23 07:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeun, 2004-11-23 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2004-11-24 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pretzelsalt, 2004-11-23 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jeun, 2004-11-23 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2004-11-24 02:53 am UTC

[info]hotcoffeems
2004-11-23 07:20 pm UTC (link)
I haven't seen the movie yet, but have seen the cartoon plenty.

One of the cautions I'd bring up in judging this as sexist or really anything else is that SpongeBob is sooo campy. It's so tongue-in-cheek that even very little kids can tell it's tongue-in-cheek (my four-year-old, for instance -- and I've never met yet a wee one who didn't "get" the tone of the show).

I'd have to see the movie to really judge, but just thought I'd mention that.

(Reply to this)


[info]lavendertook
2004-11-23 07:30 pm UTC (link)
OK, I read these quotes from people in this thread disagreeing with your stance:

. . .she was an important female character that assisted the entire way . . .

It doesn't seem like it had anything to do with women. If they had replaced the word "man" with "Adult," we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I mean, I don't think the kids would pick up on anything sexist like that . . . Although the song about being men was pretty stupid.

Thus I come to the obvious conclusion: Wow, that really is a pretty sexist movie! Sounds like your review is spot on--thanks for the warning.

(Reply to this)


[info]night101owl
2004-11-23 07:33 pm UTC (link)
The first time I saw the show, there was something blatantly sexist in the first few minutes, so I changed the channel. I wish I could remember what it was.

It's true that sexism permeates our culture, especially in the area of children's entertainment. I don't believe, as some of the commenters here do, that the sheer amount of sexism makes it futile to single anything out. You had a visceral reaction to this movie-- it makes perfect sense to articulate and communicate why this movie has a sexist message.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]hothead
2004-11-23 07:36 pm UTC (link)
The first time I saw the show, there was something blatantly sexist in the first few minutes

It's the Hothead channel-flipping game. Seriously, Ann and I do the same thing all the time. We can only watch a handful of shows all the way through.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]panic_girl, 2004-11-23 08:47 pm UTC

[info]isolatedexile
2004-11-23 09:07 pm UTC (link)
I've seen the cartoon show before... and I've gotta say Sponge Bob and Patrick are showns as complete idiots, while Sandy is the smart one is frustrated with their stupidity most of the time. I mean she is a squirrel living underwater, I'm prety impressed.

(Reply to this)

My humble opinion
[info]tropicalwahini
2004-11-23 10:21 pm UTC (link)
I think that if you haven't seen the movie then you shouldn't comment on whether its sexist or not. I haven't seen the movie and therefore I cannot say that it is sexist. Most of yall are basing your outrage on what the OP said, which comes complete with her own personal background attached (I'm not trying to say she is right or wrong. I have no idea either way). Its never a good idea to form conclusions based on second hand information (particularly if its referring to something like a movie).

On Sandy - she's almost always a side character in the cartoon. But I agree, she's always seen as more intelligent that Spongebob and Patrick - who are blithering idiots if you ask me.

(Reply to this)

Curious
[info]kangeiko
2004-11-23 10:53 pm UTC (link)
Not curious about the movie, you understand, which, being British and therefore having absolutely no idea what Spongebob was/is/will be, I have absolutely no interest in, but... BUT. I am curious about the reactions of some posters to people who disagreed with the deconstruction of said movie. Someone does not agree with you that something is/appears to be sexist. So you... what? You "can't believe that [they're] arguing this"?

Isn't debate - plurality, multiplicity, a multitude of voices - the essence of feminism? Accusing someone of not being sufficiently feminist in a feminist forum seems odd to me; I wasn't aware that there was a cut-off point involved.

I have also realised that I haven't actually posted an introductory post. So: I am 23 and a few heady months from completing my MSc in Gender, Development and Globalisation at the London School of Economics. I am convinced that literary feminism is at a dead end arrived at via postmodernity and its handmaiden, deconstruction, and that political - or should we say philoophical? - feminism is the way to go.

I also have to deal with people in my development courses that roll their eyes whenever I put forward a critique prefaced with "Well, one feminist perspective would be...", blissfully unware of the importance I place on that one little word: one. One perspective, out of many. As far as I am aware, there is no over-arching 'feminism', just as there is no overarching patriarchal discourse. How many voices do we silence by pretending otherwise?

Of course, you are entitled to disagree and I shan't think any less of you. That's the point.

(Reply to this)


[info]kattlady
2004-11-23 11:20 pm UTC (link)
ok, so uh, why the fuck does the sponge have a gender in the first place?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]pescivendolo
2004-11-23 11:36 pm UTC (link)
Because it's a cartoon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]kattlady, 2004-11-24 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tropicalwahini, 2004-11-24 02:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hotcoffeems, 2004-11-24 12:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kattlady, 2004-11-24 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hotcoffeems, 2004-11-24 02:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2004-11-24 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hotcoffeems, 2004-11-24 03:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]everwatcher, 2004-11-24 12:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kattlady, 2004-11-24 01:35 am UTC

[info]cookieavalanche
2004-11-24 12:11 am UTC (link)
I haven't seen the movie. I don't think any of you who haven't seen the movie, have a right to an opinion either.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]tropicalwahini
2004-11-24 02:26 am UTC (link)
thank you! are we the only ones who see commenting on something you haven't seen illogical?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2004-11-24 03:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tropicalwahini, 2004-11-24 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cookieavalanche, 2004-11-24 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]night101owl, 2004-11-24 01:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cookieavalanche, 2004-11-25 04:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]night101owl, 2004-11-25 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cookieavalanche, 2004-11-24 05:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beautiful_quest, 2004-11-24 05:16 pm UTC

[info]uberczech
2004-11-24 12:18 am UTC (link)
I haven't seen the movie, but all should see because the boat I work on is in it.

(Reply to this)


[info]the_living_end
2004-11-24 12:56 am UTC (link)
it is definately valid to watch something like spongebob and deconstruct it in regards to sexism. i have children. i do this to everything they watch. see, once i didnt. i let my 2 year old watch that damn piglet movie only to find one shockingly fatphobic line and a song about how mother like to cook and clean and "fuss" over their children.
our children learn quickly and deeply. to say it doesnt matter is to disregard their future.

personally, i thank you for taking notice and discussing it here. it is more important than many seem to think.

(Reply to this)


[info]silkenbirds
2004-11-24 02:33 am UTC (link)
I saw the movie and was disappointed. I love Spongebob Squarepants the series, but the movie totally missed the mark. I didn't see it as an afront to womens' rights, it was just a stupid movie that focused on the main characters too much and missed out on the other characters that make the series great.

I give the movie 2 thumbs down.

(Reply to this)


[info]tropicalwahini
2004-11-24 03:32 am UTC (link)
Hey lets all go live in a feminist bubble where mainstream culture and societal norms can't touch us or at best our children.
We all can't live in Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland
Click here to read a thing about Herland a female utopia
and here to read a sorta long quote

many things can seem sexist, racist, whatever other ist you want to use to some people but weren't meant that way at all.

plus the cartoon is about a boy sponge (odd to gender a sponge but whatever) and a boy starfish. Of course male references and pronouns and such are going to be used.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]animeg3282
2004-11-24 04:39 am UTC (link)
The thing is that intent doesn't really matter. The thing is that isms aren't cosmetic problems that can disappear if we just pretend they don't exist. The whole point of pointing out isms s that they are so ingrained that we rely on them without thinkng about it, and that needs critque.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]tonapah, 2004-11-24 11:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tropicalwahini, 2004-11-24 01:12 pm UTC

[info]belladonna_
2004-11-24 03:50 pm UTC (link)
That's upsetting. I haven't seen the SpongeBob movie. But generally, cartoons and other "kids' media" has a HUGE effect on kids' perceptions. That "manager" line sounds especially dim-witted. But hey, I wasn't allowed to watch Disney movies when I was a kid because of the negative gender stereotyping... :)

(Reply to this)


[info]sarathinks
2004-11-25 04:44 pm UTC (link)
I HAVE seen the movie. And yes, there was far too little positive female influence in it. Am I the only one who thinks teaching little boys that they have to be big, strong, hairy men with moustaches to be able to accomplish anything is just... wrong?

And don't feed me the line that this stuff is just stupid and it won't affect kids. I've been a teacher for seven years in early childhood education and yes, the media strongly influences kids in their formative years.

(Reply to this)


[info]pixienat
2004-11-25 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Sandy is my favourite character.

:(

(Reply to this)


[info]goddesswashu
2004-12-01 12:29 pm UTC (link)
All you BITCHES quit your WHINING and get in the KITCHEN to make me some fucking BREAKFAST.

(Reply to this)

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