Kettetastic ([info]yakkette) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2004-10-04 15:38:00
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Entry tags:feminist mvmt general, language, male feminists, privilege

12 Helpful Suggestions for Men Regarding Conduct in Feminist Spaces
1. Realize it's not all about you. No, really! Shocked? This is because:

Corollary to Rule 1: Feminism is about women. Girls, ladies, females, grrrrlz, womyn, wimmin, whatever you call them, it's about us. It's for us, by us. Not how you feel harmed or threatened by feminism or women, or about how you are oppressed as a man. We know that patriarchy affects all people negatively - but this isn't the space to draw attention to how men suffer. I strongly encourage you to form your own men's group to discuss those issues.

2. Check your privilege. Yes, you have it. We all have different kinds of privilege, but you, as a man, have male privilege. Just because you don't feel privileged doesn't mean you don't have it. Recognizing that you have privilege does not mean that you have never suffered. Being told to check your privilege is not a personal insult or attack. It also doesn't indicate that someone is trying to cop out of an argument or silence anybody - we just get tired of having to explain it constantly. See Rule 6 for more info.

Corollary to Rule 2: There is no such thing as "reverse sexism." Don't even think of trying that one on us. The fact that an individual man can be harmed by an individual woman does not override an entire misogynistic social system.

3. Listen. This would be really nice. Please respect our feelings and our experiences.

Corollary to Rule 3: When in doubt, shut the hell up. If you're not sure you're "getting it" take a step back, resist the urge to hit that "respond" button, and try to think about what women are saying - before you act.

4. Resist the unconscious urge to dominate. It's what you've been programmed to do, but this is not the place for it. See Rule 1 and Corollary. If you find that you're posting more than the rest of the community combined, think about why. If you feel the need to constantly draw attention to your maleness, examine that dynamic - it's often a subconscious method of exercising control.

5. Try not to get defensive. Remember that women expressing frustration with the patriarchy is not a personal attack on you, and there's no need to respond as such. If you do so, you're likely to violate rules 1-5. Remember: If you're feeling attacked by feminism, it's probably a counter-attack.



6. Remember that it's not our job to educate you. Feminist communities shouldn't have to be constantly rehashing "feminism 101" due to the influx of new male members. You can read this, so you can read a book, or if that's too much to ask, you can do internet research. There are lots of ways to learn about basic feminist theory without sidetracking an entire community in the process. If you do the research and still have specific questions, then it's more appropriate to ask people for their opinions - but they still don't "owe" you anything.

7. If people are calling you a troll, there's probably a good reason for it. You don't have to purposefully be trolling to act like one. You can play devil's advocate to your heart's content and then log off the computer and not have to deal with these issues ever again. The rest of us can't do that. This is our reality, and we generally don't appreciate men treating issues that really affect us as some sort of witty intellectual exercise.

8. Don't try to be a knight in shining white armor. So you think you can singlehandedly save feminism with your unqiue insights? Get over yourself. It's extremely unlikely that you've had some brilliant revelation that has eluded us women for ages thanks to the superior intellect of your penis.

9. Women are not a hive mind. Feminism is not The Borg. There is a wide range of diverse experiences and views within feminism. Just because one person on a feminist community agrees with you doesn't mean that we all will. Just because your feminist friend thinks one way doesn't mean we should all be expected to. Wide, sweeping generalizations and assumptions about feminism and women are not likely to win you any points.

Corollary to Rule 9: Do not use your presence or opinions to pit women against each other. Try to refrain from becoming the subject of discussion - that violates Rules 1, 3, and 4. Don't "divide and conquer."

10. Call out other men on sexist behavior. This is the best way to put theory into practice, and is a way to use your male privilege for good! If you're claiming to be a feminist on one board and then laughing when your friends make sexist jokes, we're obviously going to question your sincerity.

11. Understand that just because you call yourself a feminist doesn't mean that you're exempt from these suggestions. So you have an understanding of feminist theory - wonderful. So you want to fight the good fight - great. That doesn't give you the right to then go and ignore all the other suggestions because you "get it" and you're "one of the good ones."

Corollary to Rule 11: Don't identify as feminist so you can get attention from women. It's creepy and pathetic, and usually we can smell it a mile away. It does not become any more appropriate to hit on or make suggestive comments to women in a feminist community simply because you call yourself a feminist, either. This is not the place to look for a date.

12. Don't expect a pat on the back for following these suggestions. And don't whine if you don't feel you're receiving enough credit for acting like a decent human being. You shouldn't be behaving appropriately because you crave our stamp of approval - you should be behaving appropriately because it's the respectful thing to do.


This list was greatly influenced by [info]hothead's post - and this older one, and all the wonderful comments. I did not come up with most of these, but I just wanted to organize the various complaints and observations into something that's hopefully easy to understand. I'm not writing this as a snark/complaint towards the men in this community - I'm dead serious.

Anything important I left out?

Snarky side discussion: What words and phrases would you like to see eliminated entirely from a man's vocabulary within a feminist community? I'll start with three: "identity politics", "man-hater" and "I thought it was about EQUALITY!"



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[info]animeg3282
2004-10-05 12:37 am UTC (link)
Thank you for making this clear. While the hardcore trolls won't be reformed, maybe those on the borderline will go "oooooh."

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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 12:41 am UTC (Expand)

[info]99catsaway
2004-10-05 12:43 am UTC (link)
I think we can all agree "feminazi" is another bad term.

Good post.:)

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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 12:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]veile, 2004-10-05 01:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rainbowtimes, 2004-10-05 01:34 am UTC (Expand)

[info]veile
2004-10-05 12:47 am UTC (link)
You know, I hate that term "reverse sexism". I mean, wouldn't that be good? It would be the opposite of sexism. The reverse of sexism would naturally be treating people equally. Men can be discriminated against, although it is much more common to happen to women, but either way it is sexism! I just hate terms like "reverse sexism" and "reverse racism". Besides just being plain wrong and annoying it adds the culture of separating men and women, whites and minorities, etc. Sexism is treating someone badly based on their sex. Racism is treating someone badly based on their implied race. It is irrelevant the sex or race. It is wrong no matter what. I want an equal society. Grrrr...

Good post. The only term I would like to see no one use, unless it is a criticism of, is "reverse sexism".

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(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 12:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]99catsaway, 2004-10-05 01:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]animeg3282, 2004-10-05 01:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]matcha
2004-10-05 12:53 am UTC (link)
Perhaps women themselves should take heed of this advice. I love the reputation some feminists garner us by being sexist, not listening, not resisting the urge to "dominate," and being particularly defensive. And you're right, there isn't such a thing as "reverse sexism" - just like there isn't "reverse racism." Just as all judgement based on race is racism, all judgement based on gender is sexism. Women can be sexist, too.

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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 01:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 01:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 02:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 02:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 01:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 01:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 01:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 02:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 02:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 02:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 03:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 02:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 03:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:41 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 03:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 04:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 04:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]2peculiar, 2004-10-05 02:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 02:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]2peculiar, 2004-10-05 02:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 02:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]2peculiar, 2004-10-05 03:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]2peculiar, 2004-10-05 05:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matcha, 2004-10-05 03:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - bluecassandra, 2004-10-05 07:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]2peculiar, 2004-10-05 03:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]2peculiar, 2004-10-05 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jfpbookworm, 2004-10-05 01:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]estu_k_aftadai, 2004-10-05 02:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kalelian, 2004-10-05 02:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 02:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2004-10-05 03:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jennem, 2004-10-05 05:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gem225
2004-10-05 01:12 am UTC (link)
Thank you for this post. I hope that the people who need to read and learn from it, do, but somehow I doubt that. *sigh*

(Reply to this)


[info]t3knomanser
2004-10-05 01:12 am UTC (link)
1) You don't know me very well. Of course it is.
2) The privelege I've earned far outweighs what I've been given by virtue of my gender. Most of the things that I did growing up that I continue to do (barring computers) were, in my environment, female dominated (music, art, and writing).
3) Listening is not the same as respecting someone's feelings.
4) My urge to dominate is entirely conscious, and I think this post is enough proof.
5) I only defend my ideas or my body. My ego is well nigh indestructible.
6) Can't argue there.
7) Probably because my online social skills are lacking. Then again, I don't instigate debates to make friends.
8) *snicker snort* See #1 and #4
9) Not yet anyway... the technology isn't there yet. In the future, it will be us versus the robots.
10) Lead by example I always say.
11) But those sorts of guys are the funniest.
12) See #1, #4 and #8

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(no subject) - kamuela, 2004-10-05 01:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]maclyn, 2004-10-07 08:20 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cookieavalanche
2004-10-05 01:15 am UTC (link)
Yea. I'd like to second the mention that I know plenty of women who act just as patriarchal as many men do. I don't think they should be exempted from these rules, just because they are women. I think acting patriarchal is different from acting sexist. Women internalize patriarchy and use it, all the time. Often they use it to kind of "act like" successful men. Margaret Thatcher comes to mind as the exemplification of a woman who has acted patriarchal-- done what powerful men have historically done to get ahead, used a male-defined, patriarchal paradigm. She's an obvious and extreme case, but every day, on a much smaller and more nuanced scales, women use patriarchy. They use the patriarchal tools and ideologies that men have used for centuries to subjugate not only other women but other classes, races, ethnicities, some say nature too. What I'm trying to say is that I really like your post and think it's really helpful, I just think that there are many, many women it also applies to, women who are antagonistic to feminism for various reasons, one of which is that they utilize patriarchy daily.

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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 02:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cookieavalanche, 2004-10-05 03:47 am UTC (Expand)

[info]welsey
2004-10-05 01:28 am UTC (link)
Thanks for posting this! I really think that it's an important thing to have written down. There are people who would read this as sexist, and that's what makes me so mad about society and realize that we still have a long way to go in feminism. This is important stuff.

Some men just can't appreciate the idea of something being solely ABOUT women, they need this idea of "equality" so that their issues can be talked about too. Once again bringing the subject back to males. They need to understand that this is not the place to pull that patriarchal shit, however well intentioned it may be. It's time for men to sit on the sidelines and be respectful, let something be a woman's space FOR ONCE.

Awesome entry.

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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]welsey, 2004-10-05 04:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]disquesinge, 2006-08-11 10:00 am UTC (Expand)

[info]globedoc
2004-10-05 01:44 am UTC (link)
#10 is most important.
Great list!

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(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:14 am UTC (Expand)

[info]searover
2004-10-05 01:54 am UTC (link)
"when in doubt, shut the hell up" Well, that breaks it down, doesn't it? if you're confused, just trust us, we're right. okay...

"Resist the unconscious urge to dominate" Must...oppress...women.... must....control....with.....dick.....

"Remember that it's not our job to educate you" This goes along with the corrolary to rule three, right? You're wrong, we're right. and no, we're not going to explain it to you and you're not allowed to ask about it. That's just how it is.

"If people are calling you a troll, there's probably a good reason for it" Exactly. You're a troll because you're questioning our rightness. and not shutting the hell up.

"Women are not a hive mind." I am becoming inclined to disagree. I find that the more feminists I meet, the more sweeping stereotypes i can create that they fit into. OKay, that's not completely true. There are definitely plenty of sane women out there, but it seems like the ones that talk the most are the ones that I can fit into stereotypes. Are they still stereotypes if they're accurate?

"don't expect a pat on the back for following these suggestions"
Oh, i get it. Sit down, shut up, we're right, you're wrong, and even if you do everything we say, we're STILL gonna treat you like shit. Gee, guys must be lining up at the gate to be feminists.

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(no subject) - [info]jfpbookworm, 2004-10-05 02:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]searover, 2004-10-05 03:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]searover, 2004-10-05 04:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 04:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]searover, 2004-10-05 04:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 04:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mintogrubb, 2004-10-05 10:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 10:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mintogrubb, 2004-10-05 10:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beandelphiki, 2004-10-05 11:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Why cant we be friends
[info]sjine
2004-10-05 02:00 am UTC (link)
I am so glad to hear exactly how you think men in general (did I mention I am male?), so I come posting as an obvious dominating, sexist, privileged, defensive, uneducated, troll-like at all times while also a man in shining armor man who promotes others to make sexist comments (sorry, ONLY other males) and I have never ever experienced any form of being a minority based on my gender. Oh, and by the way, I am obviously the kinda guy who NEVER listens.

Ok, enough bull. Fact is, I am a stubborn person (just like you, though I tend to be more open minded) and I like to be on the defense (all men suck, none of them are decent EVER!). I hang around with my group of friends, of which the female/male ratio is about 6 girls to every guy, all of which I would concider femenists (but not me, cause I am a guy). Why? Because they believe in EQUALITY (uses your own definition as posted in the bio of this community). I listen to them, I reflect on what they say, I take advice more often than I give it, and quite frankly, I dont feel comfortable with the judgment you, as one woman, has made on me, one man.

The fact is, you are a sexist person far beyond the guys I see discussing their girlfriends in the locker room in a derogitory way. You sit upon your computer and make a list of rules I should follow, because I have a dick and because my pecs arent covered in extra body tissue. You have decided that I am ignorant of your suffering, so let me ask you: are you white? Are you straight? Do you own your own home?

Let me tell you, if you are white, you float on top of society more than you will ever know with only one person left to place blame (everyone needs someone) so you pick the men. Penis envy, as a psychiatrist would call it, I think its just human nature to blame someone, you even blame other women who arent as orthadox femenist as you. Are you straight? I have gay male and female friends trying to just get married? I feel so blessed that I can do something as simple as walk in and get a marriage liscence, and you damn well better be too. You obviously have a roof over your head, while there are men AND women out there fighting to just find a house, a shack, anything.

As long as there are people like you, orthodox and completly unexcepting of anything other than the pure pathetic image you are clearly trying to force onto women so that men feel bad, nothing will ever change. You have mapped out the reasons why this post is being printed out and shown to all my female friends, but dont worry, the three I have shown online are laughing. I am clearly to dominating and have brainwashed them. Yup.

I feel so insulted, reading your post, you classify men in one whole group, and you just put women in one helpless group. Unlike you, my female AND male (gasp, shock, horror!) friends, as well as myself, fight to bring equality. There arent gender bounds between us. So I'd like to give you a new word to try in your little catagory game. "They". We use it, here in my little "obviously dillusional" world. Works well. I dont always win against my female friends, I dont always lose. But heaven help me for the people like you who make all our hard work pointless for the guys who are still jackasses to point fingers and say "freak out".

So go ahead, diss my view as always happens in these journals. Make sure you call me wrong, say that all your points have gone over my head. Dont worry, "we" have all grabbed the society out there, we choose to be active while you sit around and bitch and moan about how men are ruling the world.

So stop putting men down, pull them up to be your equal. Its the only way to get things done. Or, you can sit and post about how I am wrong. I really dont care, any female I associate with is enough proof to myself that at least I have grown up just as equal as anyone else.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]hothead, 2004-10-05 02:09 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]isolatedexile, 2004-10-05 02:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]madamjolie, 2004-10-05 03:48 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]welsey, 2004-10-05 05:23 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]dancingdrew, 2004-10-05 05:44 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - kamuela, 2004-10-05 02:18 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]trinityva, 2004-10-05 02:21 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]sjine, 2004-10-05 02:43 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]silverspar, 2004-10-05 02:52 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:06 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]cantstopthedawn, 2004-10-05 03:06 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - kamuela, 2004-10-05 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why cant we be friends - [info]holyschist, 2004-10-07 12:22 am UTC (Expand)
poor crying penii - [info]trinityva, 2004-10-05 02:18 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]sjine, 2004-10-05 02:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]kalelian, 2004-10-05 02:34 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]madamjolie, 2004-10-05 03:53 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]hothead, 2004-10-05 11:53 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]trinityva, 2004-10-07 06:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]welsey, 2004-10-05 05:30 am UTC (Expand)
congratulations - kamuela, 2004-10-05 10:00 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]yakkette, 2004-10-05 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
Re: poor crying penii - [info]trinityva, 2004-10-07 06:54 pm UTC (Expand)