Bedlam boys are bonny ([info]mad_maudlin) wrote in [info]fanthropology,
@ 2005-09-24 13:09:00
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Fanspeak
A recent post to [info]linguaphiles included a link to this write-up of a con presentation by a speech therapist. She apparently had noticed some unique linguistic and paralinguistic habits among American fen versus the general population, and while she didn't really want to discuss it too in-depth (probably afraid of offending people) she does make some interesting points--especially the bit about "written English."

I recognized some of these habits in myself, especially the articulation and eye contact, but I deliberately trained myself out of them while in high school. Some of the features she notes may be connected to a predisposition to fannishness, but others may actually be acquired--the pronounciation thing especially reminded me strongly of Labov's work on Martha's Vineyard. Which makes me wonder if the same habits would be observed among internet-only fen.

I really want to do a study on this now. Anybody got some grant money and a tape recorder? :-)

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[info]alchemia
2005-09-24 08:00 pm UTC (link)
i think like others said in the other comm, it looks more like a 'geek' syndromthan fandom one; what kind of con was she at also, do certain fandoms attract more 'geeks'. i dont understand why she was afraid of offending people.

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[info]angrybabble
2005-09-24 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Well, I think of fandom as a community that, while it loves congregating in large, scary, questionably-scented groups, actually does most of its socializing and communication via the written word: the interweb, mailing lists, LJ communities, 'zines, etc. So the end conclusion that we all seem to be talking in "written english" (pausing for periods, footnoting or using parenthetical speech out loud, concern for pronounciation [equivalent to spelling? which obviously can cause you to look smarter/dumber to your audience in written format], etc). And ZOMG we are (as a group) undersocialized?!?!?!!? HOLY CRAP DID NOT KNOW

Stuff like the eye contact thing I had never noticed before! I mean, I noticed we do it, but I didn't realize that the, er, mundanes don't do that. How totally weird. Obviously I should spend more time with them. XD;

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[info]alchemia
2005-09-24 08:34 pm UTC (link)
i dont think this observation can generalise though to all of fandom. many fen just read w/o interaction; many don't care about discussion, meta or even good spelling/grammer- they're having fun and are happy with just that. but these persons are less likely to get involved with a study or attend many if any cons. I suspect they would show less of the traits this person noticed; the people she would see or have respond to a study are more likely those who take fandom more seriously or even obsessively- and these are more likely to be the 'geekier' people who like to analyse things and obsess on things.

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[info]gnatkip
2005-09-24 09:01 pm UTC (link)
That report is absolutely fascinating. I had kind of a hard time understanding exactly what it was talking about, though, seeing as how I don't hang out with other fans IRL. I have been friends with SCA folk, so I tried to remember their speech and mannerisms. Mostly, though, I tried to think what The Simpsons' Comic Book Guy sounds like. Hehehe. *cough* Also, I occasionally listen to Cosmic Landscapes fan radio, and most of those guys seem to fit the bill.

I wonder how it relates to gender. It seems, at first blush, to be a more commonly male thing, maybe? And I also wonder about Asperger's, which predominantly affects men, I believe.

So what is it that causes one to both interact in this distinct way, and to pursue fannishness? Fascinating.

And about my fandom, Harry Potter: What other unexpected and seemingly unrelated characteristics might a mostly female fandom share?

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[info]beccastareyes
2005-09-24 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Now I'm wondering if this is different in different areas of fandom. For example, the speaker in the article sited that one reason that fen speech patterns may be different from mundane speech patterns is the extenisve amount of communication in the written word, though the source material (science fiction/fantasy books) 'zines and the Internet. Which makes me wonder if media fandom (especially anime/manga fandom) where the source material is graphical and not verbal is different. I know a lot of the less-well-written anime/video game fanfic reads like the writer has not seen enough books to know how to construct a fictional story.

I'm going to have to watch my own body language now, to see if I do this. Despite several years of lessons (I have Asperger's and my therapist tried to condition things like eye contact into me -- basically give me the reflexes that normal people picked up in childhood) I still don't
pay attention to such things unless I make a note to.

I also know that my mother describes my method of speaking as 'educated' when I asked her if she thought I had an accent. Not sure what this means. I've also been told that my word choice doesn't convey as much emotional information as my tone of voice, which means peopele have actually told me to use emoticons while typing and I have caused at least two people to think I was angry at them because of the way I typed.

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[info]rabidsamfan
2005-09-24 11:12 pm UTC (link)
I definitely pronounce more letters than most folks do, and in fact, I think it's very sloppy pronunciation not to say the "k" in a phrase like "talk to"... And I'm quite certain I pause for commas. I don't know about the eye contact thing, though.

It's fascinating to think about though. Maybe one of the reasons why fans congregate is that they finally find someone whose conversational style matches the way they think things should go?

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[info]ghostgecko
2005-09-24 11:40 pm UTC (link)
I have Asperger's, too, and I've over the years conditioned myself to look people in the eyes (but I can only do it if I imagine I'm looking at an object, not a person). I've read that scifi geekery is fairly common with autistics . . . maybe there's a crossover of body langauge? I did notice some of the thngs mentioned (very crisp consonants, gasping laugh at the end of a sentence) are things I do, but I've never interacted with other fans in groups so I couldn't have picked it up by imitation. Is this an autistic thing, or something anyone would pick up from primarily interacting via the written word, I wonder?

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[info]gnatkip
2005-09-25 06:12 am UTC (link)
"(but I can only do it if I imagine I'm looking at an object, not a person)"

That is so interesting. I'm so curious about this, and I don't want to offend you or annoy you. The unpleasantness that eye contact causes, is it because it signifies a possible threat? Or because it creates some sort of obligation? Or because there's too much information being thrown at you from facial expressions? And I assume that it's something you force yourself to do in order to grease conversational wheels, rather than because you derive pleasure or information from it?

My curiosity was sparked when I was involved with someone who, I now believe, has Asperger's. Undiagnosed. So I was forever wandering in the forest wondering why we never spoke the same language. :) I apologize if this is inappropriate.

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[info]ghostgecko
2005-09-25 01:23 pm UTC (link)
Don't worry, I'm not even slightly sensitive about being autistic. In fact, the diagnosis was a relief after years of being considered crazy or stupid. The only thing that would bug me is if you ask "So, can you count a bunch of toothpicks just by looking at them, like Rain Man?" (and I have been asked this).
As for eye contact, there's been a study done in which it's proved that eye contact is perceived as a threat - the amygdala, a part of the brain that is involved in anxiety, is overactive, so that even a familiar, nonthreatening face is upsetting. Again, finding this out was a huge relief, because I could never express exactly *what* bothered me about eye contact, only that it made me very uncomfortable.
Here's more info: http://www.neuropsychiatryreviews.com/apr05/eyecontact.html
I do force myself to make eye contact because otherwise people think I'm being shifty, or rude, or not paying attention to them. Left to my own devices, I'll hold a conversation while staring at the floor, or drawing. Of course, that article (and most others) ends with "And now that we know this, we can train autistic children to look people in the eye!" which is bullshit. Why force them to do something if you know it's upsetting? It'd be better if you just realized it was upsetting and let them carry on doing what they were doing instead of trying to train them like little dogs. (But that's another rant)
Anyways, if you want to talk about this you can email me privately so we don't spam this comm.

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[info]gnatkip
2005-09-27 08:48 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for such a thoughtful response. Sorry it took me so long to reply.

That eye contact article is absolutely fascinating. And it helps explain why my ex had such trouble remembering and distinguishing unfamiliar faces. The more I learn about autism-spectrum disorders, the more interested I get. I may take you up on your offer to email, sometime. Thanks :)

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[info]drworm
2005-09-25 06:08 pm UTC (link)
*also has Asperger's* I tend to avoid eye contact because it feels 'threatening'... I want to look at a person's moving mouth or hands or not look at them at all while they (or I) are talking. I think it feels threatening because unfamiliar sensory information is threatening, and because there is an expectation that some sort of information will be gleaned from the eyes. But since someone's eyes aren't giving me any more information than a person's ears, there's not much reason for me to make eye contact. And I personally don't force myself except under special circumstances.

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[info]gnatkip
2005-09-27 09:00 pm UTC (link)
Before I had an inkling about Asperger's, I found it bewildering and painful to be in a relationship with someone who periodically just "shut down." His eye contact (or lack thereof) and body language felt like rejection or punishment. So it's really helpful to me to understand where he's coming from. So interesting. Thanks for replying. :)

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[info]nllmki
2006-02-10 06:11 pm UTC (link)
I watch mouths myself. I am both showing them that I am looking at them and at the same time gathering information for myself that is lost in the auditory channel.

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[info]yubsie
2005-09-25 02:29 pm UTC (link)
I'm thinking things like eye contact may be a case of more introverts being drawn to fandom than one sees in the general population. Avoiding eye contact is a very common mannerism among introverts. As is having the "umm" before the sentence rather than in the middle of it.

I definitely pronounce my end syllables, but that has more to do with singing in choirs for a long time. Every music director I've ever dealt with has been big on proper enunciating. Of course, this makes sense because a lack of enunciation sounds bad enough in speech, it's simply HORRID in song.

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[info]drworm
2005-09-25 06:16 pm UTC (link)
This is very interesting... makes me wonder exactly how much fandom itself plays a direct role in these kinds of speech habits, or whether this is a case of similar people congregating and having similar speech patterns for other reasons (such as Asperger's), and how a study of fans who interact primarily through the Internet would come out.

I myself know I have a propensity for picking up other people's speech habits inadvertently, although my own accent is pretty obviously the spread, nasal Midwestern US accent (though I've never lived any farther west than Northern Illinois) with a tendency toward clipped consonants. But I've appropriated a fairly wide varity of pronounciations and speech habits over the years...

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[info]princessofg
2005-09-25 07:13 pm UTC (link)
absolutely fascinating, and i would have to say that now that she pointed it out, i can totally see and cop to a lot of these behaviors, especially interrupting, the eye contact thing and the finishing each others' sentences.

because of my work i have a tendency to blend in to whatever group i'm in; kind of a job necessity, and i think i can kind of turn on and turn off this typical fen behavior.... i guess that's a good thing.....

thank you so much for linking to this and i'll be looking for info like this in the future. wow.

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[info]joisbishmyoga
2005-09-27 05:05 am UTC (link)
I've often thought my primary language was written English, as opposed to spoken. I can manage easily enough in a professor-style lecture now, but when I know I'm allowed and expected to give input, I almost have to literally bite my tongue to avoid interrupting ("rude among mundanes"). When speech shows signs of not being previously-thought-out ("um" or "like" in the middle of the sentence, among other things), I get frustrated, and my opinion of the speaker's intelligence and understanding of the topic drops.

Additionally, I do automatically thank people who interrupt to correct me or add input, and spend long, silent seconds in that "wait, I'm not done" posture when I have to plan my next paragraph or integrate new information. I've never noticed whether I make eye contact or not, but I have noticed that the center of my focus tends to be on a person's nose, the bridge of their nose, or their eyebrows. I've been asked twice about my "accent" (I've never lived more than thirty miles from my birthplace in Ohio), though I also thought this was because I spent most of my formative years in choir.

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[info]nllmki
2006-02-10 06:16 pm UTC (link)
I am very much the same way. Written English is certaintly the language in which I am most fluent. I have a lot of difficulty with trying not to interrupt people as well. Thankfully for me a majority of the people I interact with are autistic. I do pause midsentence at times but that is because I lose my 'train of thought' or am otherwise distracted. I know for a fact that I watch mouths.

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