I can't answer either of your questions, but thought I'd pipe up just so you don't feel so singled out. I'm right with you on the effect these books have on me. I don't get them either, and I'm not even a Scorpio, so go figure.

I think it's a plot vs. character thing. You know when you pick up a romance that the story is going to be centered around two characters, and if you're a reader that loves character stories, then that's exactly what you're looking for. If you pick up pretty much any other type of genre fiction (sci-fi, fantasy (urban or otherwise), mystery, etc.) you're going to get more of a plot-centric book where the character is maybe not as important, or at least not as well-defined.

To clarify, I'm not saying that romances don't have plots or that non-romances don't have good characters. In fact, a romance will never work without a good character-driven plot. I'm just saying you're likely to find that people who don't give a shit about throwing magic rings into volcanoes are more prone to read romances, and people who find romances boring or silly are more likely to want to see what happens with the little guys and the volcano and the ring.

Plot vs. character. Paranormal romances will probably have more enticing plots because... well, they have to otherwise you'd feel cheated on the paranormal aspect. Myself, I love a good genre novel with a touch of romance. Not necessarily because I want to see two characters get together, but because I want to see how imaginative the writer can get by figuring out a way to keep the two characters apart.

If you think about it, romance stars in just about every movie out there today, be it horror, action-adventure, drama, comedy. Sure it's not the main plot but it's always there in the background--the guy trying to win the girl by the end. And we cheer for him to. ;) And I believe it's because falling in love is something we can all relate to, no matter our background.

I can't recommend a particular book without knowing your preference for the types of stories you like

Patrice *a Scorpio who likes a good action adventure mixed with romance*

My problems getting into genre romance tend to include the emphasis on stereotypical sorts of guys (they seem to mostly be alpha or at least dominant and, well, just not like the guys I know in real life--strange, since the women are more nuanced); the assumption that men and women are fundamentally different (I know lots of folks disagree on this one, but again, my experiences with guys-as-friends especially don't mirror this); and that business of the required Happily Ever After (and I know the point is the journey, and I like journey books, and yet ... know that's a requirement bugs me -- too many nuanced ways a love story can end, too much ground between HEA and losing each other entirely, and I want to know all of those are at least possibilities when I start reading).

And I'm another Scorpio, too. :-)

That said, Jennifer Crusie's Bet Me was recommended to me when I asked for romance I could stand, and it was pretty good -- I do still think about it now and then, though it wasn't enough to convert me to the genre.

I can't read a romance, but I like a touch of romance in my genre books. There's something about a little sexual tension that keeps me turning pages to see who hooks up. Even if the two characters don't get together by the end, I like wondering if they will amid all the ups and downs of the plot.

I am interested in this topic, because, like you, I have an aversion to category romances, but I also really like a romantic arc in novels. When I was a kid, my dad would garbage pick and one day he came back with a cardboard box of Silhouettes and Harlequins. I read them and boy did they suck (maybe because they were the one that were THROWN AWAY) and that was pretty much what I thought of romances for a long time

I have a very smart friend who recommend some books that helped me be more curious. The stand-out was Eva Ibbotson's THE COUNTESS BELOW STAIRS. Fantastic.


(I am another Scorpio. Maybe that's my problem.)

There's a lot of cross-genre going on in Romance now with urban fantasy, where traditional romance 'formula' rules aren't being followed and plots aren't solely about getting the hero and the heroine to a Happily Ever After. This has pleased several readers (note the current popularity of paranormal series) - and it has also pissed some readers off to no end (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/01/09/why-mislabeling-will-hurt-new-authors-or-the-one-where-jane-broke-her-ipaq-hurling-a-book-against-the-wal/)

So, some non-Romance formula authors I'd recommend who are still shelved in Romance? Colleen Gleason has the Gardella series that's been called Jane Austen meets Buffy the Vapire Slayer, Katie McAllister has the Aisling Grey, Guardian series, and Rachel Vincent's Stray is in Romance, but it's definitely more cross-genre UF, if you go by "traditional" romance standards. Personally - and I'm sure, more than a little biased - I like the new trend of paranormal romance books that are bucking the formulaic pattern. Not that I don't *like* formula at times, but something different that's still romantic is nice too.

I'm frustrated with the romance genre, because I love romance, but I don't love romance novels. The ones I've read have insufficient plot and not-very-believable characters.

The stories I write, however, are all essentially love stories (some are platonic). When I construct a story, I start with a character dynamic that interests me, I figure out the arc for both characters, and then I layer a plot on top that will drive the characters in the direction I want them to go.

I haven't started shopping any of my work yet, and I'm worried I'll have trouble finding a home for my stories because they're hybrids. They follow neither the conventions of romance novels, nor those of typical SFF. They draw a little from both. And yet I'm writing exactly the sort of novel I want to read. There doesn't seem to be much of it out there.

I don't think you need to worry about being convinced the genre is amazing. Romance (as a genre) fullfills a need for some people. It's all about fantasizing (because really, isn't that what we're participating in any time we read any book?). Some people are drawn to some fantasies, other people are drawn to others. There's some very interesting research about romance novels and their appeal that I could probably dig up (specifically regarding middle-class white women) if you're interested on a social level.

Just like some people like vampires and some people don't. And never the twain shall meet.

Let me preface this by saying that romance novels and porno do not equate to the same thing. Porn is a graphic visual of someone getting their rocks off. Romance novels are literary works that discuss people getting their EMOTIONAL rocks off (to continue the terminology). Some don't even have sex and a good deal 'fade to black'.

You know how some people say that a trip is not about the destination, it's about the journey? That's how I think of romance novels. Yes, it's the same type of story in pretty new packaging. Yes, they are the same characters (aka stereotypes, which I could debate) that we all know and love. Romance novels have a very specific structure for the most part, but that is what the readers want. I don't want to pick up a romance and have the hero die two pages from the end. I would FREAK OUT if that happened. Romance is, in essence, a well told fairy-tale of relationships. Instead of being about the handsome prince, it's about the handsome CEO or the handsome billionaire, or the brooding vampire. Take your pick. But it's not because the readers are lapping up formulaic crap because they're dumb. Romance readers just know very specifically what they want in the story, and the books are packaged to deliver that. If I want a happy ever after starring a girl and a guy and how they learn to work with each other and get over their issues, I'll pick up a romance. If I want a plot about a lawyer that gets into OhNoes! trouble, I'll read a Grisham. See what I mean?

But comparing all romance to the category stuff that Harlequin puts out (which serves a very specific market) is like comparing all urban fantasy to Charles de Lint. Or all fantasy to Lord of the Rings. Sure, there might be a few like that, but the vast majority don't quite fit into that category.

Romances are purely character driven. Some have amazing, complex plots (Nalini Singh and Meljean Brook come to mind) that make you sit up and pay attention. Some are very light on plot but are all about character interactions and two people getting to know each other. I love them both.

So no, I don't necessarily think that romances are for everyone. But it really does get my dander up when people mock the genre. I know you didn't mean it that way, but it's a bit of a hot-button of mine so it brings out the RAAARR! MUST DEFEND! in me. *g* And when you mention porn in the same context as romance, and then talk about sniggering about guidelines, it does come across as insulting, no matter how gently you meant it. So please, just bear that in mind for us gentle romance lovers. :)

Oh, and not all stuff classified as 'romance' now actually falls in that category. My books are classified as 'erotic romance' by my publisher. I think of them as urban fantasy, and they're not a romance in the slightest. There is no HEA, which is item #1 for a romance. Go figure.

- Long-winded Jill Myles

PS - This is what I get for that post a few weeks back about wizards, right? Subtle revenge? *g*

It comes down to which lines you read.

If you read Harlequin Silhouette Nocturne for your paranormal romance, you're going to get a very stereotypical romance, with the paranormal pasted on.

If, on the other hand, you read Harlequin's Luna, you've get really good fantasy books, with strong romance subplots.

I haven't tried Tor's Paranormal Romance line, but I suspect you'd get something closer to the Luna line than the Silhouette Nocturne line with the Tor books.

IOW, it's a matter of finding the right books, just like in any other genre.

I'd suggest starting with C. E. Murphy's Urban Shaman. Terrific book as a straight up urban fantasy.

You are so not alone. I shun any book that has a half naked man on the cover. At the same time, I really feel cheated if I read a book that doesn't have a romance in it. Weird, I know. And, so far at least, everything I've written has a romance in it. I think I'll cry if (assuming I might one day be published) my book gets placed on the romance shelves instead of sci-fi/fantasy.
Um, well, maybe not. I'll be grateful if anything I write is ever placed on *any* shelf. :-)

***1) Why do you like romances?
I enjoy romances because I'm guaranteed a happy/satisfying ending.

***What mind set do I need to sit down and enjoy one?

An open mind. Sorry, I couldn't resist. *g*

***What do you not like about them?

Like any other genre, some romances are formulaic.


***2) As a romance cynic, can you recommend one or two that'll convince me the genre is amazing and that there are dozens of great paranormal books that I'm missing out on?

If Angels Burn by Lynn Viehl, Halfway to the Grave by Jeaniene Frost, Succubus Blues by Richelle Mead. That should get you started.

I do think that one of the things you need to keep in mind is that there are ALL kinds of romance novels out there. They run the gamut from category (ie Harlequin) to edgy single titles. Believing that they're all the same is a lot like saying ALL mysteries are alike because they have a whodoneit within the pages. Or, that ALL urban fantasies are the same (ie they're all a variation of Buffy the Vampire Slayer).

Okay, I'm not a romance only person. I am a virgin to these boards, so it's fitting I post on this subject. Romance and FFF. I agree w/irysangel on many points, but it is the fact that sexual chemistry becomes its own character in these novels. The balance of the game of will/won't, the essence of its draw and that which pulls us apart. Chemistry as character is it.

It is this that can allow us to take a vampire and a normal girl and feel the chemistry, already knowing what pulls us apart (the difference and the coldness of the vampire contrasted with the heat of desire.) It is what allows us to feel the character of chemistry and indulge in various other interdimensional relationships: the faery and pixie, the half-troll and human, the many versions of forbidden given.

It is that they have made the chemistry game it's own character and you indulge in that like you may any character you love.

The danger...too sappy, too trite, too codependent characters. That kills it.

recommended. Well, that I don't feel versed enough to give. That character of chemistry is a chameleon. Each reader is his or her own environment that cast different shades of perspective.

The how to get this mojo. Well, flirting or remembering it. Flirting or that flirting feeling when you get true intimate time alone with your other.

I love the game of flirting. The sharp play of words that are laced with intensity. Or when my hubby and I actually get time and light the candles and sip our drinks.

Don't make it hokey with just wanting romance. Romance is not the core. It's that play of....when will I surrender? When does my King fall in this game of chess.

Well, thanks for letting me cherry my post. I'm a libra, next door to Scorpio. They say we don't get along, but I'm on the cusp. Ah, the cusp...yet another game of boundaries broken.

Just Thoughts on this dark night in candlelight,

T.

My fellow cynic - all I can tell you is the "why" behind my own paranormal romance forays and the mindset with which I approached; beyond personal experience, I'm not sure how much help I can be. Basically I go in with the idea that the romance of these novels are as fictional as many paranormal elements (i.e., a gorgeous hunka man (with an ever-ready erection), who will forsake all others declare undying devotion to the woman before him, is as much a fantasy as vampires and werewolves). I tend to approach from an analytical p.o.v. and if the romance happens to tickle my fancy--it's a pleasant surprise. One book I've recently come across that sustained a believable romantic subplot, with plenty of paranormal action was Rachel Vincent's STRAY. If you're going to give any a shot, that would be my #1 choice. Hope you find something you like. =)

Maggie, I'm totally with you. Romance is not my cuppa tea. And I want to try, but in the end I always know who'll end up with who. There aren't any single people in fiction anymore ;-)

Have a lovely day! :-)

I usually read all the comments before answering in-post questions, but I'm going to go backwards this time and hope I don't just repeat what 64 other people have already said.

I am not even halfway a romance reader. I like a good romantic storyline in a book. Emphasis on the "good." I don't require it, though, and I have very low tolerance for romantic silliness or romantic creepiness, which unfortunately includes a not-insignificant number of apparent romance novel conventions. But I take pride in reading everything, and I feel like there _must_ be some crossover between the romance genre and the kind of books I like to read. So I keep trying, at intervals.

My goal here would not be to convince you that there are dozens of great books you're missing. It's very possible that you're like me and you're just not the sort of reader or person that's going to enjoy most romances. But I think it's possible that there are a few.

I like romances--or more to the point, the idea of romances--because I like people. I'm interested in people, and I'm interested in their relationships with each other, and that seems to me rather the point of the genre. There are two places where I tend to run into trouble:

1. This foregrounding of relationships--and more to the point, this particular kind of relationship--means that the things that would be important in other kinds of books--the kind of books that I've been trained to read--are secondary. Which means that they can get glossed over and slacked on, and so there are romances that don't work for me because they're too silly or too contrived or too inadequately thought-out or just don't make any sense.

2. Foregrounding the romantic relationship can also make crystal clear a lot of bizarre and/or creepy assumptions about said relationships, and about men, and about women, and about people in general, and so on and so forth. I'm all the way down with reading things that make me uncomfortable, but there is uncomfortable and then there is uncomfortable. And when I'm thinking, "This is not romantic. This is creepy controlling in-need-of-anger-management-therapy-and-probably-a-restraining-order-or-three stalkerdom," that book is not so much working for me.

And between those two things, I bounce off an awful lot of the romances that I try.

I have found some that I've enjoyed. I have no idea if you'll like them, but I'll link the posts where I wrote 'em up and you can see what you think, eh?

Jade Tiger (Jenn Reese): http://buymeaclue.livejournal.com/354545.html

Er. And I guess that's actually it. Huh. I did enjoy

Blow Me Down (Katie MacAlister): http://buymeaclue.livejournal.com/411990.html

But had big problems with the second half under clause #2. But! I am currently reading one of the new Shomi line, a book called Moongazer (http://www.amazon.com/Moongazer-Shomi-Marianne-Mancusi/dp/0505527251/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2734658-9662807?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190118314&sr=8-1) and I'm really, really enjoying it. It's very silly, but in enjoyable ways, and hasn't tripped any of my hot buttons thus far, and it's fun to watch how the author hits the romance conventions (like the lust-inspiring first meeting) but makes them fit much better and make more sense than they usually do. I was dubious about the line, but so far we're off on the right foot.

A lot of people I know enjoyed The Rest Falls Away (Colleen Gleason), which is sort of Victorian Buffy. I found it too precious, but I could at least see the appeal, if you like that sort of thing.

I've had zero luck with the (now possibly defunct?) Tor Romance line.

I'm a lurker here, but I will pipe in with my two cents about romance.

As a whole, the genre cannot hold my interest either. (This may be due to the fact that the first romance novel I had ever read was called The Raider by Jude Deveraux when I was sixteen and it included the line "He entered her as gently as water lapping at the hull of a boat." Now, this book is apparently beloved by many, but it just didn't do it for me. I laughed until I cried, which is probably not the reaction the author was going for.)

I find that, as a whole, I find less in which I can be personally invested. That may be because the "danger" is already mitigated before I open the pages; I know that the hero and the heroine will usually end up together. The heroes and heroines also generally fill a certain "type" as well. There's nothing wrong with this and I'm not saying that each character isn't unique or individualized in any way. But even if the hero starts out as a villain, deep down, they're usually GOOD PEOPLE and therefore I become uninterested.

I don't have any books within the "romance" genre, but I will venture a few that I personally consider "romances" (and that I adore) but are perhaps shelved elsewhere (literary fiction, generally).

01. Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen.
This is a classic. Snobby rich man, sparkling heroine who is his match.

02. Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte.
My absolute favourite: plain governess, brooding Byronic employer, mad ex-wife infected with syphilis shut up in the attic, supernatural happenings, Gothic galore!

03. The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger.
A love story that spans several ages (quite literally), pseudo-paranormal/speculative fiction. I SOBBED by its ending. A bit more on the "romance"-y side for my personal tastes, but still very good.

04. The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera.
Oh Kundera. I love you SO MUCH. Tomas, an epic womanizer, falls in love nearly against his will with Tereza, a beautiful woman-child, a woman born of "six laughable fortuities."

05. Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden.
Beautiful girl sold into an okiya, falls in love with a man who could never be hers.

There we go! The driving conflict in each of these books is the love story, and therefore "romance."

Maggie, I haven't read all 100-something of the comments, but as a romance reader, let me just said that if you HAVE read Twilight, and enjoyed it, then you've already read and enjoyed one of the most popular, romancey, melodramatic, Amazing Love Conflict Over All romances out there. I read a lot of romances. Most have way more plot than Twilight. So *I* had to start laughing when you start out from the premise of not getting romance, and then say you loved Twilight.

Perhaps you should start with the paranormal romances written by the FFF members. I highly recommend Nalini Singh...

I would also recommend Marjorie M. Liu's Dirk & Steele series. They're definitely romances in that they have an HEA and one hero/one heroine, but the plots are primarily about the detective/paranormal aspects. You don't feel like the romance is being shoved down your throat.

More importantly, you want the h/h to be together, not because they feel some sort of contrived Instant Everlasting Luuurrrrve, but because they genuinely like each other and can build a strong relationship.

Plus, Liu is knock-you-over talented. I'm in awe of her, and I don't say that about a lot of authors.

I feel kind of bad for people who are mainly romance readers because I think that people who don't read romance and don't like romance can be kind of judgemental/mocking/snooty/something not nice about it. I think it's tough to defend your tastes when there will be people who look down on it.
Of course there is the same thing with any genre. I hear things like "It's a good book EVEN THOUGH it's YA". As if YA means usually bad? For me that's a weird attitude. I think that with every genre there are books that you might like and books that you might not, so I think that a willingness to try something even if you end up hating it is a good trait to have. I also think that writers should try to read all kinds of books to get a wider scope and improve their writing.
Anyway. I do I see where you are coming from - I like urban fantasy but if it's a paranormal romance, I prefer the romance on the side with the urban fantasy plot driving the story. But I have also read romances where there was a nice HEA and a character driven, emotional story, without it being a bad book (someone rec'd "Bet Me" by Jennifer Crusie here, and I second that rec). I also just read "Driven" by Eve Kenin which is marketed as futuristic romance (couple of sex scenes, but the book ALSO had Siberian Ice Truckers in it!). I didn't like the Katie McAlister Aisling Grey series (well-written, light reading, but the humor wasn't my style so I stopped after 3 books), but I wouldn't discommend it. Paranormal Romance - I liked "Stray" by Rachel Vincent as well. A lot of people recommend Nalini Singh's series. I read "Slave to Sensation" and I thought it was OK. I wasn't quite blown away, but I did read it pretty fast and I would keep reading that series because I like the world, and I would recommend that to people who like romance.

Well, I'm a bit late on the discussion; looks like I missed a lot of the action too. -_-;

I'll admit I like a good romance novel. However, I hate the bad ones, and it's often hard to tell the difference when you read the back/see the cover. I stick to authors that I like already or ones I'm recommended, but I can see why a lot of people shy away from this genre. One of the things I like about series UF is that, instead of characters falling in love over just a few days time or having one adventure and finding their true love (romance), most heros/heroines in UF and series fic have arcs wherein there is conflict, misunderstandings, and the general crap of life getting in the way of anything like HEA. You get to see everyone's stripes, both good and bad, and generally either find a way to overcome differences or part ways. Romance sometimes puts rose-colored glasses on the dating game, as if we can all find Mr. Right in whoever we date first; series/UF allows us to see that numerous Mr. Wrongs have come before, or that Mr. Right really isn't all that great a person but he's willing to do whatever he can to help the heroine.

*shrug* Just my views, if that all makes sense. I guess it all boils down to showing that love, like all of life's other annoyances, has its ups and downs. A romance novel ends at the end; UF/series books continue telling the story beyond the walking into the sunset.

I have written a few, and yet, I don't get them either to be frank.

I've said this on many forums before but for me the POINT of reading is the journey. I don't want to know the ending. I HOPE that my protags will end up together, but I don't want the safety net of it - what the fuck is the point of that?

Erastes said: I don't want to know the ending. I HOPE that my protags will end up together, but I don't want the safety net of it - what the fuck is the point of that?

That can be said about all genres. In how many murder/mystery/thrillers does the good guy not get his man? In how many horror books does the hero not triumph over evil? Romance is know different to any other genre--it has expectations. Only difference is, the ending expected is two people getting together rather than the bad guy getting caught or evil being stopped.

In any book, it's all about the journey to get to the expected ending. It just seems that many people are less tolerant of romance expectations than of other genres.

Erastes said: I don't want to know the ending. I HOPE that my protags will end up together, but I don't want the safety net of it - what the fuck is the point of that?

That can be said about all genres. In how many murder/mystery/thrillers does the good guy not get his man? In how many horror books does the hero not triumph over evil? Romance is know different to any other genre--it has expectations. Only difference is, the ending expected is two people getting together rather than the bad guy getting caught or evil being stopped.

In any book, it's all about the journey to get to the expected ending. It just seems that many people are less tolerant of romance expectations than of other genres.