Ash ([info]hellishduchess) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
@ 2009-07-06 01:04:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Atheism and You
Hey FullMetal Alchemist ficcers? Have you forgotten or are you simply ignoring that the world of FMA has no Christianity?



Amestris is entirely secular, guys. As in, they don't even have a religion they COULD be subscribing to, not that they choose not to acknowledge one. And yet, you have them celebrating Halloween and Christmas. You can't have missed Ed's giant "I AM AN ATHEIST" rant in the first episode, it was a huge plot point.

Christianity was literally destroyed as a religion about a century prior to the plot, so only really old folks will even have heard of it, much less actually know anything about it. If you want anyone from FMA verse to celebrate a holiday, you're going to have to actually think about it. Canon gives us exactly two religions--the cult of the Sun God Lito which was proven false, and Ishbala, which being based on Islam, may have holidays, but they won't be anything the same as Christian holidays. It'd still be a stretch for a lot of the characters to want to celebrate something having to do with a god they don't believe in.

It's probably easier to assume that the people of Amestris celebrate the changing of the seasons and the New Year as pretty much every society does--the Solstices don't necessarily have to carry any religious weight, nor does the change of the calendar year, but both have significance that bears celebrating. The customs for each can even still correspond to Christian holidays with a bit of tweaking! Likewise, Amestris might have it's own version of Independence Day and Thanksgiving, but you're going to have to explain WHY they have them in the first place.



(54 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]snowdevil_crow
2009-07-06 06:19 am UTC (link)
... but Halloween isn't a Christian holiday. o.o

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hellishduchess
2009-07-06 06:36 am UTC (link)
Straight off wikipedia: "Halloween is a holiday celebrated on October 31. It has roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain and the Christian holy day of All Saints’ Day. It is largely a secular celebration, but some Christians and pagans have expressed strong feelings about its religious overtones."

Though the holidays have split off so that All Saints' Day is now a day behind Halloween, they were for a long time considered the same holiday by the Christian Church. Some churches today still treat Halloween as though it were a traditional Christian holiday.

Granted, it's mostly a commercial holiday and considered far more pagan due to it's roots but really? Christianity adopted pretty much EVERY pagan holiday to attract converts way back in the day, so you could basically say that about any major Christian holiday.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]schreckschraube
2009-07-06 06:44 am UTC (link)
The date is christian, the celebration itself isn't. If your charas have a celebration where they drive out evil spirits by dressing up as monsters and vampires, that's nothing to do with christianity itself.

On the other hand, do they have Celts?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kohi_no_tora
2009-07-06 07:30 am UTC (link)
Though the holidays have split off so that All Saints' Day is now a day behind Halloween,

Actually, that's always been the case. Halloween is not All Saints' Day, all so known as All Hallows' Day. Halloween is derived from All Hallows' Eve which has always been the day before just like Christmas Eve is the day before Christmas and New Year's Eve is the day before New Year's Day.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-06 09:17 pm UTC

[info]akinarei
2009-07-06 08:01 pm UTC (link)
I'm echoing [info]hellishduchess: it certainly is.

And why? Because according to the Church, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. And in the case of most pagan holidays, give them a totally different meaning from their pagan roots.

Halloween used to be Samhain (so-ween), one of the four great fire festivals and it was believed that the boundary between this world and the world of the dead was thin and that the spirits of loved ones passed could come back and visit for the night.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snowdevil_crow, 2009-07-06 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-06 09:08 pm UTC

[info]wimseynotes
2009-07-06 06:31 am UTC (link)
Yes it is. All Hallow's Eve (Hallowe'en), followed by All Saints' (or All Hallows') Day (November 1), and All Souls' Day (November 2).

The old Christians were no fools. If you want someone to accept a new idea, piggy-back it on an old one. So the Celtic festival of Samhain began Hallowe'en, the day of the dead. Complicated long history with possible misconceptions, accreted mythologies, and deliberate half-truths later...

see http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/holydays/halloween.shtml

We have Halloween, the only thing stopping North American businesses putting out the Christmas decorations before the Back to School signs have come down.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]larissafae
2009-07-06 06:52 am UTC (link)
We have Halloween, the only thing stopping North American businesses putting out the Christmas decorations before the Back to School signs have come down.

Oh, please. A week and a half ago I was at Michael's and they already have Thanksgiving/general autumn decorations up. And last year, Walgreen's skipped Thanksgiving and went straight from Halloween to Christmas.

Corporate America, I hate you so much.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]iscah_rambles, 2009-07-06 01:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]larissafae, 2009-07-06 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-06 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]larissafae, 2009-07-06 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-06 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]samjohnsson, 2009-07-06 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-07 06:11 am UTC

[info]avaricia
2009-07-06 06:53 am UTC (link)
This reminds me of a fic I read that explained how Amestris could have a Christmas celebration. It was really well thought out and everything. :D

But yeah, people should put more thought into things like that or they end up looking foolish.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hanachan01
2009-07-06 07:08 am UTC (link)
Um, link to that fic please?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]avaricia, 2009-07-06 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hanachan01, 2009-07-06 07:46 am UTC

[info]cesaretech
2009-07-06 07:06 am UTC (link)
I don't watch the anime often, but I thought Ed was an Agnostic.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hanachan01
2009-07-06 07:10 am UTC (link)
I think he is too...on the surface, he claims to be an atheist, but he has shown moments of questioning that (in the anime at least. I'm behind in the manga). So you're probably right, but he'd never say that to any one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ketita
2009-07-06 09:12 am UTC (link)
I agree. He always came off to me as more "I REFUSE to believe in God because that bastard fucked me over", which... means he actually does believe in a deity existing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-06 02:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_shepherd, 2009-07-06 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]reticent_lass, 2009-07-06 05:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-06 07:11 pm UTC

[info]lilacfield
2009-07-06 08:29 am UTC (link)
I read somewhere that Arakawa said Ishbal is based off of the indigenous Japanese people. Can anyone confirm this? (Either way, they still wouldn't celebrate Christian holidays)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]reticent_lass
2009-07-06 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Only in terms of how they're treated in mainstream Amestrian society--i.e., poorly. The Ainu have been persecuted terribly for a pretty long time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ketita
2009-07-06 09:15 am UTC (link)
For me, if somebody wanted to have a Christianity-like religion in their fic and did some explaining in order to make it plausible (like, maybe it exists in other parts of the world, but was stomped out in Amestris because totalitarian governments don't like competition, but maybe some people kept practicing it in secret or something) I would be willing to buy it.

But straight-out throwing it in without bothering to explain or argue for its existence bothers me as well.

(Reply to this)


[info]nenya85
2009-07-06 11:29 am UTC (link)
Amestris also does have a belief system. It's called the Law of Equivalent Exchange. It might not have a deity attached to it, but it is the belief system many of the characters subscribe to, and if you are going to believably have many of the FMA characters, such as Al, Roy, or Ed (atheist/agnostic issues and the fact that Christianity doesn't exist in the timeline, aside) clebrating Christian holidays, some thought should be paid to how that squares with their already existing belief system. For example, would Santa Claus bringing toys be seen as an equivalent exchange for the effort of good behavior during the year?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]amy_wolf
2009-07-06 11:05 pm UTC (link)
See, this is where the fuzziness of terms like 'belief system' bothers me. Because there's a qualitative difference between belief as in believing in God or belief as in believing in gravity. And I always thought the law of Equivalent Exchange was more like gravity (a description of an observable physical phenomenon in their universe).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nenya85, 2009-07-07 02:20 am UTC

[info]ldkirby
2009-07-07 04:00 am UTC (link)
Isn't the equivalent exchange thing only a big deal for alchemists, though? The only people who ever seem to mention it are, and it seems like something that most normal people wouldn't be aware of, or just not think about a lot, since alchemy isn't a big part of their lives.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]beccastareyes
2009-07-06 11:45 am UTC (link)
You could probably make a case that some of the festivals survived the loss of the religion under different guises -- for example, Halloween has become a secular holiday in our world, despite its Christian origins, and Christmas and Easter have been heavily influenced by Roman and European festivals.

That would require thought, though. I'd love to see fic that explored this. (I know a friend wrote a fic about a solstice festival, figuring that most temperate places had some kind of holiday around mid-winter to celebrate the fact that the days would be getting longer.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]iscah_rambles
2009-07-06 01:26 pm UTC (link)
I agree - for the anime version, you could get away with an entirely secularised version of the holiday. In the manga, on the other hand, I believe the author has confirmed that Christianity never existed, so there's no way of using its holidays.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]stormarrow
2009-07-06 02:16 pm UTC (link)
Actually, Halloween does not have Christian origins, but Pagan ones. Christmas and Easter are celebrated when they are because that was when the major pagan holidays were celebrated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lil_shepherd, 2009-07-06 04:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-06 07:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-06 08:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-07 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-07 06:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-07 01:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-07 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-07 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akinarei, 2009-07-08 06:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormarrow, 2009-07-08 01:41 pm UTC

[info]duowolf
2009-07-06 12:58 pm UTC (link)
I agree to a certain extent but there are offical artwork of them dressed up as santa for example, or celibrating St. Valentine's day and I belive I've seen halloween pics as well. So that might be one reason people belive they have christams etc in their world.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]veneotaqueen
2009-07-06 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. Some people fail to understand that some official artwork for certain holidays is more for fanservice to the readers in OUR world.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]reticent_lass, 2009-07-06 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duowolf, 2009-07-07 05:19 am UTC

[info]sic_semper_trex
2009-07-06 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Is it not possible that they could celebrate these holidays without their religious trappings, or in ignorance of them? I'm an agnostic and I love me some Halloween.

(Reply to this)


[info]militsa
2009-07-06 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Amestris is entirely secular, guys.

I'm not entirely sure about that. I think it is possible that there could be some other religions still around, they just don't have a great presence in public life in Amestris, which makes it a secular society (without an official state religion) but religion and religious worship has not, as far as we know--correct me if I'm wrong!--been outlawed in Amestris. I mention this because I think one could write a fic that plausibly has some kind of Amestrian religion worked in.

Still, yes, mentioning Christmas or Halloween casually in a non-AU FMA fic does pull me out of the story because it is definitely anachronistic. And don't get me started on writers who write stories with little preachy bits based on their own religious beliefs, no matter how anachronistic they are to the setting.

(Reply to this)


(54 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…