★ nyx → king of spades. ([info]cartographique) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
@ 2008-06-27 13:49:00
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Entry tags:logic go boom, missed the left turn at albuquerque, research your research plz, stereotypes suck

i need to take a break from this goddamn community.

Incest rant!

In Biology this semester, during our unit on DNA and genetically inherited traits, the subject of incest came up (as I'm sure it  usually does). Turns out-- and I didn't know this before, so apologies if you did-- the only reason that incestual babies are supposedly 'monsters' or whatever is that if one sibling carries a recessive allele, then chances are good that the other sibling does too, which increases the child's chance of inheriting that disease. Take, for example, Down's Syndrome. Recessive trait, which means that you have to have two recessive alleles in order for it to present. If both siblings are carriers, then chances are 25% that the kid will get the disease. Got it? Good.

That fact leads me to believe that the laws against marrying a relative closer than first cousin stem from the fact that there is a higher chance of deformities or disabilities in children born from incestual relationships. Not all children who are born from incest are deformed or disabled-- if both siblings, or even just one, has dominant, strong alleles, then the kid will be fine. 

Just to get this clear, I'm not advocating incest. I'm just saying that even though it raises the biological chances of disorders are higher when the child is born of closely-related parents, it's not impossible to have a child that's perfectly healthy, even if the child is with your sister. 

The whole issue of morality-- you know, if anyone can give me a solid, concrete reason why marrying your sibling is wrong on a moral level, I'll believe it (maybe). But I'm getting the impression that sibling-sex/marriage is one of those things that is "just wrong," kind of like homosexuality. In all honesty, I believe that if two siblings were to fall in love, their relationship could be just as loving, supportive, and happy as any non-related relationship could be. Of course there would be the added pressure of societal stigma against the coupling, but really? If they were determined enough, it could work out just fine. This is all about social stigma, you guys. It has nothing to do with the fact that the two are related and has everything to do with the fact that society frowns on it. 

But then again, it wasn't so long ago that sodomy laws in the United States were abolished. So keep that in mind when you're condemning incest. It's like homosexuality, except not as widely accepted.

I guess it just feels kind of hypocritical that people-- fanfic writers, I'm looking at you-- can write gay relationships with the excuse of "well, you can't help who you fall in love with", and then turn around and condemn incest-fanfic writers for the exact same damn thing. You can't help who you fall in love with, whether it be a member of the same sex or your sibling. 

So! I'm guilty of reading Elricest. I'm guilty of reading Uchihacest, and Hitachiincest, Jonascest and Kaulitzcest. And I've seen the pairings written in such a way as to make the relationship perfectly happy and stable, initial roadblocks aside. And I suppose that my own personal thoughts on written incest (or even real-life incest, for that matter) go something like this: "Don't like incest? Then don't do it, and shut the fuck up."
 
edit; Whoo, I was actually not expecting that strong of a reaction to this post. Um, a few edits for clarity:

01. Agreed. Down's Syndrome was a bad choice of recessive trait on my part, so I apologise for that. I was originally going to go with adrenoleukodystrophy but I wasn't sure how many people would know what that was... So, um, yes. ALD or cystic fibrosis would have been a better choice. 

02. The comparison to homosexuality seems to have irritated a lot of people, so I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't relating it to homosexuality directly, but rather in terms of social stigma. As in, it wasn't so long ago that homosexuality was just as frowned-upon/condemned as incest is. I hope that makes sense...

03. Yes, this is very specific to sibling-incest, and I agree with regards to the mentor/student (and by extension parent/child) power dynamic that would end up being an exploitation of the younger/weaker/whatever party. As well as that, this is also assuming that the incest in question is consensual and not rape/dubcon.

04. And yes, I do have two brothers.

By the way, on a sort of unrelated note, I want to mention that I do appreciate that disagreement to this rant was presented in a fairly non-aggressive way (some exceptions, of course, but generally speaking). It was much appreciated.

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[info]k_diddy
2008-06-27 08:57 pm UTC (link)
So keep that in mind when you're condemning incest. It's like homosexuality, except not as widely accepted.

Oh Jesus Christ and all the saints in heaven. Comparing anything to homosexuality is just... wow. WOW.

Edited at 2008-06-27 08:59 pm UTC

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[info]impishly
2008-06-27 09:58 pm UTC (link)
Ugh, word.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]silver_chipmunk, 2008-06-27 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saciel, 2008-06-29 10:05 pm UTC

[info]kokanshu
2008-06-27 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Your rant is very specifically sibling incest while making general statements about all incest. Remember incest applies to any relationship between closely related family members.

There are also negative possibilities aside from the the potential for defective children - if it is a parent-child or older sibling-younger sibling relationship, there is the possibility that the elder has abused their position of responsibility in order to pervert the younger's understanding of what they're doing.

I totally agree with you about incest = bad being a matter of socialisation, but there are more elements to people being adverse to it than just 'you could have funny looking kids'.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]theladyfeylene
2008-06-27 09:11 pm UTC (link)
There are also negative possibilities aside from the the potential for defective children - if it is a parent-child or older sibling-younger sibling relationship, there is the possibility that the elder has abused their position of responsibility in order to pervert the younger's understanding of what they're doing.

Even if the dominant partner doesn't do this consciously, it...is inevitable. It's an inherent abuse of power, just because of the dynamics of the relationship. And it leads to developing extremely unhealthy ideas of what a relationship and physical connection between two people consist of, along with a whole slew of other problems. It's almost psychologically impossible for an incestual relationship to be healthy, simply due to the social and psychological repercussions. And those aren't things to be dismissed out of hand.

Seriously, there are a hell of a lot more issues to incest (of any kind) than just the potential of genetic mutations. And I'm saying this as a fan fic writer that does indeed write a great deal of sibling incest, of the slash, femslash and het variety.

I'm not even touching the comparison to homosexuality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]kokanshu, 2008-06-27 09:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theladyfeylene, 2008-06-27 09:28 pm UTC

[info]sollersuk
2008-06-27 09:06 pm UTC (link)
There's a situation that crops up often: siblings who have been adopted, grow up separately, meet, don't know the relationship and fall deeply in love.

It also happens to half siblings brought up apart who do know the relationship (OK, Lord Byron isn't a good example for anything, but he's an example here).

In earlier European societies, the ban on incest was basically because if you married a close relative, it reduced the number of in-laws that you could bind to your family and make demands on; marriage with half siblings was allowed by Athenian law, hence the Roman joke that "you can go half way to Athens but the whole way to Alexandria" - marriage with full siblings was one of the things that the Ptolemaic dynasty picked up from their Egyptian subjects, and that redoubtable woman Cleopatra was the result of numerous generations of brother-sister marriage.

The first point at which Europe in general started to worry about it was when Christianity started spreading. The shocking starting point for Boswell's book on infant abandonment, "The Kindness of Strangers", was when he discovered that the reason Christians were warned not to frequent brothels was because of the risk of accidental incest with a sister or daughter who had been abandoned and taken in and brought up in a brothel.

So, as you've probably guessed by now, not only am I not squicked by incest, I am fascinated in an anthropological sort of way by the fact that so many people are.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]rhube
2008-06-27 09:21 pm UTC (link)
Indeed - there's a good deal of evidence that incest taboos are much more heavily linked to the social practices of gift giving than anything else. The Traffic in Women is an excellent read on the subject.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]snakesandarrows
2008-06-27 09:09 pm UTC (link)
Take, for example, Down's Syndrome. Recessive trait, which means that you have to have two recessive alleles in order for it to present.

I thought Down's Syndrome was a nondisjunction/trisomy disorder? Yeah, it is. Trisomy 21 </checkyourfacts>

That said: I really don't see the big deal people make about incest fics. Why do you think there are EVER characters in fandoms who are twins? (And yes, I know that's a very very very hideous sweeping generalization, but trust me, in any and all fandoms where there are twins, if you dig you'll probably be able to find a fic devoted to them being in love with each other.) Of course, it can apply to those who aren't twins, but it's slightly less common, last I checked.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]pathology_doc
2008-06-27 09:20 pm UTC (link)
Some Downs ARE inherited translocations onto another chromosome (usually 14), but yeah. Downs was a bad pick. Cystic fibrosis would have been a better choice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]snakesandarrows, 2008-06-27 09:35 pm UTC
Yeah, I missed something. - [info]snakesandarrows, 2008-06-27 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]becca_commutes, 2008-06-28 01:05 am UTC

[info]rhube
2008-06-27 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I don't think it's news that it's about social stigma more than it is about genetics. Actually, I'm inclined to agree that there is theoretically nothing wrong with incest in and of itself (although it's still probably best not to have kids - probably OK doesn't mean there isn't the possibility of significant difficulties. HOWEVER, I see the value of the social stigma in the sense that actual cases of incest generally involve an abuse of the existing famillial relationship, and that's the sort of thing it's good to discourage. Also, it simply feels wrong to most people because the relationships they have with other family members are simply not the sort they would want to change into a romantic one - the parent/child and sibling/sibling relationships come with a whole bunch of bagage that would make that undesirable in most cases even where there would not be an abuse of power.

That said, although I'm used to being looked at oddly when I say this, if these other factors are not in play, I don't see anything wrong with it; but these accompanying factors do make it noticeably different from homosexuality.

(Reply to this)


[info]shanaqui
2008-06-27 09:17 pm UTC (link)
I think you're completely wrong. See, even with consensual incest, there's all kinds of harm going on. Psychologically, etc, etc. Personally, I don't care who other people sleep with, but it has to be acknowledged that the taboo against incest isn't there simply because of genetics. Incestuous relationships are almost inevitably harmful -- and if not to the people involved, then almost certainly to the family as a whole. There are plenty of reasons to believe incest is wrong.

Personally, I 'ship plenty of incest pairings, but they're pretty fucking broken.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]theladyfeylene
2008-06-27 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Have an internets.

You said what I was trying to say above in a much clearer and more concise way than I ever could!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]flowerofsin
2008-06-27 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Honestly, my initial reaction to this rant was something along the lines of




But then again, it wasn't so long ago that sodomy laws in the United States were abolished. So keep that in mind when you're condemning incest.

Well, I've never heard that justification for something before...

If you can't understand why people have issues with incest beyond 'eww, gross!' there is something wrong here.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]cartographique
2008-06-28 01:31 am UTC (link)
Of course I understand that people have issues with incest beyond 'eww, gross!', which is part of why I posted here to begin with. Like I said, I'm not advocating incest, per se-- just trying to see some different responses on the subject.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]lily_shrike, 2008-06-28 08:15 pm UTC

[info]wildannuette
2008-06-27 09:27 pm UTC (link)
I think you are thinking of Cysitic fibrosis, not Down's syndrome. CF is alleles of carrier genes coming together, Down's is translocation-an extra chromosome. I'm not commenting on the rest of the rant except to say that laws against marrying a close relative and advising against marrying a cousin are a lot to do with the possible deformities, but I think you are forgetting the incest laws are also there to protect abuse victims.

Kink is kink, some people like incest fic, it doesn't mean they like the idea in RL. But then some love BDSM fic, different kinks etc, doesn't mean they'd like to practice it in RL. I guess what I'm trying to say, is no one shoud rag on you for what you like to write but I don't agree on your comparisons, and for the record I write incest fic.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]wildannuette
2008-06-27 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Wow the last part came out kinda defensively, I guess what I mean is I write incest fic, I'm not flaming it but in RL, abuse situations and dependency/using ones I dislike it. I did see the very saddening story of the twins who felt a connection, married and found they were brother and sister, they should never have been prosecuted under the incest laws-it was not only unknowing on their part, but consensual.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]cartographique, 2008-06-28 01:34 am UTC

[info]lyingpeacefully
2008-06-27 09:28 pm UTC (link)
I once heard of a couple, brother and sister, who were orphaned as adults. They ran away together, claimed to be first cousins, and got married. They didn't have kids. They claimed to be happy - and probably were, but they had no other family and were living far away from their home town. In most cases, the disapprobation of other family members, not to mention power imbalances, would mitigate against such a happy ending.

Having said that, how many supposedly 'normal' relationships are that healthy anyway?

(Reply to this)

Do you have brothers or sisters?
[info]alara_r
2008-06-27 09:31 pm UTC (link)
Unless the siblings are twins, or there is something wrong with one that counterbalances their age, there is always a power hierarchy among siblings based on age. The oldest has significant power over the younger. That's just the way humans are. "I helped Mom change your diapers" is not something your sex partner should ever ever ever be able to say to you.

The Elric brothers are two years apart and have *very* much a "older brother-younger brother" dynamic. Even if it were biologically possible for Ed to have sex with Al, which I suppose the fanfic finds a way to resolve, it would be exploitative because Al looks to Ed as a protector and role model. Another common incest couple, the Petrellis from Heroes, border on out and out child molestation, because the older brother is at least 12 and probably closer to 16 years older than the younger brother, and incest between siblings never *starts* when they're both adults.

On the other hand, my understanding is that Sam and Dean Winchester were not raised together, so their incest may not have troubling power dynamics involved.

I dislike incest for the same reason I dislike mentor/student pairings such as Buffy/Giles or Snape/Harry. It is disgusting for an older, more powerful individual to sexually exploit a younger person who looks to them as a role model or teacher or is under their power. And this can happen in siblings with an age difference as small as a single year -- hell, in some cases *twins* can have this dynamic (cf Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch from Marvel Comics, where Pietro has *always* cast himself as Wanda's protector and caretaker even when it's absurd.) If it's written as a darkfic, with full understanding of the potential for exploitation, it can be good, but a lot of this stuff is written as fluffy bunny pairings as if there's nothing problematic about it.

The issue is consent. if another person has inordinate emotional power over you *without* sex being involved -- they are your teacher, your older brother or sister, your mentor, your parent, your parent figure, your psychiatrist, your doctor, your leader -- then it is very difficult for you to give free consent to sex without emotional coercion, because you want to make the more powerful person happy. If the *reason* the other person has a bond with you and power over you is that you want sex with them/are in sexual love with them, then there's no problem -- their emotional power over you comes *from* the fact that you want sex with them, so there's no question that they can use that power to force you to consent when you don't want to. But people want their mentors and their older siblings and their parents and so on to love them, and they want their leaders to consider them special, and that's not even getting into *fear* of the other person's power.

So you have the right to write whatever floats your boat, but I consider incest to be akin to rape or noncon unless there's some mitigating factor, like the siblings first met each other as late teens who were close to the same age. It doesn't turn me on, but that's not why I dislike it -- noncon turns me on, but if it appears along with "and it was so romantic and they fell in love!" it disgusts me and I dislike it. And that's what I dislike about sibling incest in fic -- it takes relationships that in canon are usually presented as good and pure and loving, and twists them so one of the two is borderline raping the other one, and then the writer refuses to recognize that that's what is happening and continues to pretend that this is happy fluffy fun.

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[info]4ti3k4t35
2008-06-27 09:52 pm UTC (link)
We have different views on this point, but I just had to share something.

"I helped Mom change your diapers" is not something your sex partner should ever ever ever be able to say to you.

There was actually a study done on this! Well, something similar anyway. Apparently, older siblings who helped care for or who interacted with on a regular basis with a younger sibling as a baby are way, way, way less likely to later engage in an incestuous relationship with that sibling. But older siblings who helped care for a sibling as an older child or didn't know their sibling until they were grown are more likely to engage in an incestuous relationship.

This is all under the umbrella of 'not very likely' but STILL. =D

I think that's so neat. Babies have some really interesting effects on the human brain, and I guess also on someone's sense of self and morals.

(Which is also something that creeps me out about parent/child, but uh, not going into that.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]lily_shrike, 2008-06-28 08:23 pm UTC
Re: Do you have brothers or sisters? - [info]mika_kun, 2008-06-27 10:20 pm UTC
Re: Do you have brothers or sisters? - [info]moriapolonius, 2008-06-27 10:30 pm UTC
Re: Do you have brothers or sisters? - [info]cartographique, 2008-06-28 01:36 am UTC
Re: Do you have brothers or sisters? - [info]mandy347, 2008-06-28 04:31 am UTC
Re: Do you have brothers or sisters? - [info]kazaera, 2008-06-28 08:46 am UTC
Re: Do you have brothers or sisters? - [info]akasunano_usagi, 2008-07-06 05:46 pm UTC

[info]oceanica
2008-06-27 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Er, you might want to do some more research on your incest facts. Things like the Westermarck Effect also need to be taken into account -- if you're dealing with close family members who have been raised together (in the case of siblings or cousins) or where one has been raised with the other (in the case of cross-generational incest) then that is something that is going to be a significant roadblock.

As well, as other posters have pointed out, there is a severe issue of power balances. Now, I'm a fan of fictional incest -- Uchihacest, Sandcest, URTVcest, Kurosakicest, it's fun stuff. But the power imbalances are there, and you can't just wave them aside. That's a moral issue right there.

Basically, you're right -- kink is kink, don't like don't read, and it's dumb to bash someone else's kinks for fiction. But there's no need to try and justify your fun fiction!kink as being somehow not morally bad in the real world, and you're kind of failing in your attempt to do so.

This is all about social stigma, you guys. It has nothing to do with the fact that the two are related and has everything to do with the fact that society frowns on it.

Yup. You could say the same thing about murder, theft, and rape, too. At the end of the day, it's ALL about what society has or has not deemed acceptable.

(Reply to this)


[info]4ti3k4t35
2008-06-27 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Incest is absolutely fascinating from an anthropological point of view.

With that said, I'll try to be as short as possible. The main (educated) argument against incest is not actually genetics (as small island communities can attest, some may have a higher incidence of recessive genes, but they're all still alive and not two-headed), but is instead abuse of the balance of power.

Parent-child incest is very, very, very difficult to not portray as morally wrong. The parent has the power or the child (grown older, then then we get into abuse of the elderly) has the power. It's unbalanced. There is no healthy relationship there.

With siblings, that power dynamic can still be there, but it's usually lessened. (And with cousins? Dude, unless you live with them you probably don't care.) Some siblings fight like cats and dogs and some siblings are very close. Some siblings don't even know each other, so it's not even an issue then. I don't have a problem with polyamorous relationships with siblings, which is more common than most people think (and one way to keep land in a family) IF it's consensual. I don't even have a problem with most monogamous sibling relationships if it's consensual.

The problem is that in my personal belief, parent/child can't be consensual. Ever. Even if they never knew each other until last Tuesday. Some people think that sibling/sibling can't be consensual. Some people think that cousin/cousin can't be consensual. I don't happen to share that world view, but it can be very important to some people.

Also, Uchihacest, yum. I also love Hinata/Neji and they're genetically half-siblings, but culturally cousins, and canonically unlikely, and fandomly delicious. The thing is, fandom isn't real. It's not actually hurting anyone, no matter how potentially squicky it could be in real life. So I totally don't understand the hate. Especially people who don't know why they don't like it.

"I don't like Uchihacest because incest is wrong!" "Why?" "Because monster babies with six legs!" "Poor grasp of genetics aside, they're both male. No babies there." "It's still wrong!" No! You feel uncomfortable with it. That's okay! Just say it makes you feel uncomfortable and avoid it in the future. I don't read Squall/Laguna. Does that mean I'm going to send hatemail to anyone who does? No, because that would be stupid.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]kalishaka
2008-06-27 10:38 pm UTC (link)
Because everyone else has already said everything and more about the topic at hand than I possibly could. I just need to poke my little head in a squee about Neji/Hinata... because that is how I do things.

Also, I agree. Personally I don't think Parent/Child could ever be healthy. However in the case of cousins, and even siblings to an extent, while not something that I think can be recommended. I think those relationships can be very much on equal footing. Not the norm. Not exactly something everyone will be alright with. But I don't think it can always be construed as harmful to the people involved. *shrugs* But again, just my opinion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2008-06-27 10:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kalishaka, 2008-06-27 10:47 pm UTC
Holy run-on sentence, Batman! - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2008-06-27 10:50 pm UTC
Re: Holy run-on sentence, Batman! - [info]kalishaka, 2008-06-27 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2008-06-27 11:04 pm UTC
Jumping in, since I <3 Harry Dresden - [info]kazaera, 2008-06-28 08:54 am UTC
Jump away! - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2008-06-28 09:06 am UTC

[info]ftgyhujiko
2008-06-27 09:46 pm UTC (link)
I can see you just discovered all this and is very very excited about it all, but you might like to read up on literature first to check that 1) you're not spewing BS, and 2) the discussions you're having has been covered better and deeper by people with Ph.D.s in such topics as genetics and anthropology already.

The taboo of incest in ethnic religions might be a nice place to start.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]4ti3k4t35
2008-06-27 09:54 pm UTC (link)
And a very cool place to start. Especially when you start looking at incest related to in-group and out-group cultures and marriages!

Okay! I admit it! I think anthropology is just so freakin' cool!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]rhube, 2008-06-28 05:36 pm UTC

[info]xhadowkiss
2008-06-27 09:50 pm UTC (link)
I don't think your rant was as well-researched as you thought it to be. You missed alot of points and made some really, really off the mark comparisons.

^^; I'm just saying...

Short comment XP

(Reply to this)


[info]goddramon
2008-06-27 09:52 pm UTC (link)
As far as why I, an only child, believe incest is wrong...it's rather simple really. Marriage is not about love or anything to do with it. Relationships, yes. Marriage, no. Marriage is about bringing new children into the world - new genomes and new combinations. Essentially, what it is, is low-class eugenics on an extremely massive scale. Therefore, I support the idea you have of sibling marriage and relationships - but not inbreeding. I've seen what it can do to dogs. I'm fearful of what it would do in the human society. I have two parts of my background which makes me unlikely to support incest - I am an only child, and my breeding is what you would call an outcross. My mother is English-Irish/German, my father is mostly Polish Jew with a little who-knows-what there in the background too.

So you can take my comments with a grain of kosher salt.

But, yeah - I lump incest and homosexuality together, usually. I think that people should be allowed to engage in them the same as everyone else engages in non-related hetero relationships. I just feel that the men should have to donate sperm monthly, and that the women should either have to serve as surrogates or donate eggs. I don't care what everyone else thinks - that's my opinion.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]4ti3k4t35
2008-06-27 09:55 pm UTC (link)
I've seen what it can do to dogs.

*coughs* You may want to look up line breeding.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
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(no subject) - [info]ehartsay, 2008-06-28 04:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mimi_sardinia, 2008-06-28 04:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ehartsay, 2008-06-28 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mimi_sardinia, 2008-06-29 06:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]impishly, 2008-06-28 04:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvet_mace, 2008-06-28 07:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreams_of_all, 2008-06-28 08:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]izzy321, 2008-06-28 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreams_of_all, 2008-06-28 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelittlebudgie, 2008-06-29 12:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreams_of_all, 2008-06-29 09:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kazaera, 2008-06-28 08:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ajora, 2008-06-28 09:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]izzy321, 2008-06-28 07:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amy_wolf, 2008-06-29 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beer_good_foamy, 2008-06-28 09:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]baby_werewolf, 2008-06-28 05:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhube, 2008-06-28 05:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarahsuke, 2008-06-28 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]izzy321, 2008-06-28 07:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ehartsay, 2008-06-29 02:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amy_wolf, 2008-06-28 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]illegalism, 2008-06-29 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ardwynna_m, 2008-06-30 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]saiyako, 2008-07-01 05:34 am UTC

[info]schizo_niko
2008-06-27 10:03 pm UTC (link)
I am major fail at biology and the like, but I can say that I will agree with all types of relationships as long as they are what could be considered healthy. To me, age, race, sex, familial relations make no difference in matters of love, but any relationship in which there is an unfair distribution or power, physical/psychological abuse, dubious consent (children who really can't or don't know any better), etc, is not healthy and I do not support it, whether straight or gay or incestuous or whatever.

So, while there are some disputable parts in what you've said (and they have already been thoroughly disputed, by the looks of it), I would say that I generally agree with your rant.

(Reply to this)


[info]rabbitwrath
2008-06-27 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Our species seems hotwired to find sex with people we grew up with (or we saw grow up) 'icky'. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that. Yes, there are issues with power and consent, but I think the fact that it just - doesn't feel right? Messes people up? - is enough. And I'm not saying that it'll be true in every case; plenty of separated siblings meet and fall in love. I've even heard of a case or two of it happening when they grow up together. I'm sure they're as happy as anyone else, but they're the exception rather than the rule. You cannot deny that the vast, vast majority of incest cases just do not work

I don't know why incest is damaging, but it is. Maybe because sexuality is such a complicated and delicate thing anyway and it doesn't like to be messed with; maybe because altruistic blood relationships don't segue well into the more selfish sexual ones. I don't know, any more than I know why sleeping with my sister would be beyond gross, even thoughs she's one of those stunners who turn heads in the street.

And I also think that both your reference to homosexuality and your mention of fanfic are ridiculous. 'Incest-ick' exists - will continue to exist - without society condemning it, and comparing it to homosexuality is the kind of wild inaccuracy I'd expect of uber-Right politicians. And fanfic, well...it's fantasy. Really. Many of us read and enjoy things in fic that we'd never condone in real life. It has its own set of rules and standards and expectations, and you could no more expect them to apply in the real world than you could expect Disney to.

Oh, and Downs Syndrome isn't a recessive disorder, it's an extra chromosome. Most Downs sufferers are actually sterile for that reason, so it's not very inheritable anyway. I do get what you meant about the genetic defects though. It'll vary from pair to pair, of course, but the chances of problems are statistically much higher the closer you're related.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ehartsay
2008-06-29 03:01 pm UTC (link)
What interests me is that the OP seems to have this idea that the only reasons (or the only reasons that count) are biological and that anyhting that can be described as 'social' can be discounted as somehow less 'real', when as a species we are much more conditioned by the social than the biological. The social is much more 'real' to us and conditions our needs, behaviors, beliefs and feelings much more than the biological/natural ever will.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]zaeteo
2008-06-27 10:06 pm UTC (link)
I also think that the distinction needs to be made of liking incest in fic and...liking it IRL. It's all well and good in fics, I suppose; I read dub con and cross-gen frequently, but I'd look at them in a different light if these were real people involved. Of course

But I think that incestuous relationships will always, always be dysfunctional. A fluffy "lol we are happy sibling lovers" fic would be very off because it should make people uncomfortable (the pairing, their acquaintances, and the readers. So, everyone). And that can't be discounted as invalid because it's only "social stigma;" we are generally very hard-wired against incest, as the link a couple of comments above says (for good biological reasons that you've got a grasp on, as well as socio-psychological ones).

So yes, a lot of people are rightly uncomfortable with incest, and for that reason, it (unlike slash) remains a kink instead of being more widely accepted. However, all of the fandoms I've been involved in have been terribly accepting of kinks, so...I'm not sure where you're receiving such vitriol. Sorry for it, in any case

(Reply to this)


[info]sonofwolf
2008-06-27 10:11 pm UTC (link)
As a person with two siblings and many, MANY close cousins, I can tell you it's not so much a social stigma as it is that...most people don't WANT to go there. I'm sure there is a one in a million chance that someone will fall in love with their sister or first cousin. However, I think when you are raised as sisters and brothers, most of the time that thought just never occurs to you. I've never once been told that "whatever you do, you can't get it on with your siblings or cousins". Even so, I just wouldn't do it. It'd just be weird because that's not the basis of our relationships. Besides, growing up with them is enough to know all the crap they're willing to pull and do you REALLY want to spend your life with that? Not me. It's great when I see them four or five times a year. After that, they can go away.

Besides, no one really wants their family tree to be a stump.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]graziaplena
2008-06-27 11:12 pm UTC (link)
Word. I think some people hear "social constraint" and feel a knee-jerk urge to break it, whatever it might be, not thinking that (in this particular case, especially) that those social constraints are found nearly the world over and all throughout history and are therefore there for a reason. Most people don't have to be told to avoid incest; they avoid it instinctively. The incest taboo seems to be more descriptive than prescriptive.

Also, this -- "Besides, no one really wants their family tree to be a stump." -- made me choke on my dinner. Nice one! :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]impishly
2008-06-27 10:19 pm UTC (link)
A lot of that's true, but socialized or not, there's a lot of psychological issues to it that really you don't seem to grasp. Also? Insta-fail for trying to act like incest and homosexuality are the same thing.

I'm guilty of reading Uchihacest, and Hitachiincest, Jonascest and Kaulitzcest. And I've seen the pairings written in such a way as to make the relationship perfectly happy and stable, initial roadblocks aside.
First thought: Just because it was all hitch-free and sparkly in your fic doesn't mean it is in real life. There's plenty of rapefic where the person gets over it in five seconds because sex apparently cures rape, but that sure as hell doesn't mean it works that way in real life.
Second thought: Uchihacest is perfectly happy and stable?!

I'm not about to say it's not okay to ship an incest pair (I like Hyuugacest myself!), but fanfiction isn't the same thing as real life. It's a glamourized taboo-free fantasy written by some sixteen-year-old from Michigan, not an accurate look at all the issues surrounding incest.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ellipsisaddict
2008-06-27 11:45 pm UTC (link)
Second thought: Uchihacest is perfectly happy and stable?!

Yeah, that was my reaction too. Hey, OP, if you're trying to convince people that incestuous relationships can be normal and not, y'know, completely screwed up, Itachi/Sasuke really isn't the best example.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]catalyst_roses, 2008-06-28 01:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cartographique, 2008-06-28 01:39 am UTC

[info]zeraparker
2008-06-27 10:20 pm UTC (link)
There is the word Kaulitzcest?
That scares me <.<

For the rest: I don't actually care. I'm not a fan of incest fic, because I don't have an OTP that are siblings, so i don't read it, but I don't have a problem with it existing. *shrugs*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]deutschtard
2008-06-28 01:50 am UTC (link)
ITAWTC. especially since one brother i swear is halfway to becoming sister......

-prefers german men who look like MEN -cough--

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]zeraparker, 2008-06-28 09:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deutschtard, 2008-06-28 11:54 pm UTC

[info]snowdevil_crow
2008-06-27 10:23 pm UTC (link)
You know what, I have to agree with you.

The only incest pairing I ship is Uchihacest, and I only like it when it's dark and twisted.

But people should really stop trying to tell other people what they should and shouldn't like. I have no wish to sex up my brother (or first cousin, for that matter). Nor, for that matter, do I want to have a romantic relationship with a member of the same sex.

But if someone else wants to have a romantic relationship with their sibling (or a member of the same sex) that is none of my business. Absolutely none. If they're truly in love and there's no abuse, then it should be fine.

And the excuse of 'but it's icky! ew! I can't imagine doing that with my sibling!' is total bullshit.

/rant.

Anyway, I agree with you. *has not read comments, may have missed something*

(Reply to this)


[info]interstellar
2008-06-27 10:30 pm UTC (link)
The main issue with sibling incest to me is power imbalance. I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that ideally, a romantic relationship will be between equals. Granted, the issue is much more present in inter-generational incest, but there has to be at least some question of power equality between two people who've been raised in the older and younger sibling roles. Even if the two are both consenting adults at the time of beginning a romantic relationship, that doesn't guarantee power dynamic parity.

And completely OT, but if incestuous babies really were monsters, most royal families, past and present, would be a great deal more interesting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]pargoletta
2008-06-27 10:40 pm UTC (link)
And completely OT, but if incestuous babies really were monsters, most royal families, past and present, would be a great deal more interesting.

Go look at the Habsburgs, specifically their chins.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]interstellar, 2008-06-27 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pargoletta, 2008-06-27 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kalishaka, 2008-06-27 10:42 pm UTC

[info]wounded_melody
2008-06-27 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Don't know if it has been mentioned in all the above comments, but marriage between family members was common in older societies, such as Egyptian, so that "royal" blood would stay within the line. I've never looked into whether the offspring from such pairings were born with defects or not, but now that's something I'm putting on my "to-do" list ^.^
As for incest in fics, I'm fine with it, especially brother on brother ^^;;

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]wounded_melody
2008-06-27 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Ahhh, just checked out the link above--interesting! Need info on Egyptians though...

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]kamiki_seto, 2008-06-28 02:03 am UTC

[info]talim
2008-06-27 11:02 pm UTC (link)
i need to take a break from this goddamn community.

Yeah. Yeah, I think you do. D:

(Reply to this)

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