Caylin ([info]coinin) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
@ 2008-05-13 17:27:00
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Gay Parents and gender specific terms
I read mostly m/m slash, so I don't know if ficcers do this with lesbian couples, but why the hell do fanbrats feel the need to have a child call one of their two male parents "mommy" or any variant thereof? I can understand this in certain situations, such as if one of the men does indeed identify as a woman, then he'd likely tell the kid he's "mommy."

There's also a One Piece fic where Zoro and Sanji end up attached to a kid and Zoro tells the kid that Sanji is "mommy" because he's a bastard like that.

But beyond that a a select few other situations, it makes no sense, especially when, canonically speaking, neither of the men in question are what one would call "effeminate."

I understand the need for a distinction, but there are better ways of doing that, like calling one father "pops" and the other "dad" or something of that ilk.

Or, if the kid is in his obnoxious teenage years, "sperm donor" and "thing attached to sperm donor."

SD and TASD for short.


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[info]fabfemmeboy
2008-05-13 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I can never understand why they do that. Is it that hard to figure out that slash involves two MEN, not a man and a man-who-may-as-well-be-a-woman?

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[info]0_567395
2008-05-13 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Sometimes kids will just do that, though. I mean, they might not even necessarily realize it's a man/woman thing, just that most families they hear about, one parent is called mom and the other is called dad. (That was how I was with my fake uncles. I called one of them aunt because I just thought it was a thing that those were the names for a couple one of whom was related to one of your parents. Never mind the fact that neither of them was actually related to either of my parents...)

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[info]coinin
2008-05-13 09:38 pm UTC (link)
To an extent, that makes sense, for instance, if the child was adopted after already forming such ideas. But what about if the child is raised with the couple from infancy? Barring outside influences (which most of these fics don't mention), the child would be raised calling his/her parents whatever they tell him/her to call them.

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[info]serenity_winner
2008-05-13 09:35 pm UTC (link)
My friends have characters that are a gay couple with a daughter. She calls them Daddy and Papi. It's super cute. :>

Anyway, yeah, that's irritating. :|

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[info]lullabee_lj
2008-05-13 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Unless the kid is taking a standardized test. For the AP exams, they want the level of education of your "Father/Male Guardian" and "Mother/Female Guardian." I don't think I'm being overly politically correct in finding that a bit unnecessarily impolite.

Anyway, yeah. A mother is female. That even holds true for MPreg, I should think. It wouldn't be MPreg otherwise, and... well, you wouldn't call that pregnant FtM fellow an expectant mother, would you?

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[info]blackjackrocket
2008-05-14 04:51 am UTC (link)
Why would they ask for a parent's education level on a test anyway? I mean, if they want to cross-reference, wouldn't they already have those on file from the census? Sorry for the off topic.

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(no subject) - [info]lullabee_lj, 2008-05-14 05:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2008-05-14 06:03 am UTC

[info]euphony_of_love
2008-05-13 09:48 pm UTC (link)
This irritates me as well. There are other ways to make a distinction between the parents, not just mindless repeating of one so-called standard (unless, as you said, one of them identifies as female, in which case we're not talking a gay couple anyway). I guess some authors do it to show how naive the child is, but even then it makes me wonder if a very young kid would already have the notion that "parents = daddy and mommy" so ingrained. In short, yeah, it is annoying.

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[info]batty_gal
2008-05-13 10:16 pm UTC (link)
I'm actually going to deal with that in an upcoming Mpreg I'm writing. That truly grates on my nerves, but if the actual fic is good, I'll continue reading it. I also hate the "one guy is like a woman" in some of the slash pairings.

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[info]lullabee_lj
2008-05-13 10:30 pm UTC (link)
"Like a woman"! Feh! What is that supposed to mean, anyway?... well, okay, in some really freakish yaoi things, one of the characters gets to such an extreme that you could describe them as nothing other than feminine, because men can't get away with that sort of wibbling and simpering and swooning, but a woman would be humored a bit...

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(no subject) - [info]amy_wolf, 2008-05-14 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]batty_gal, 2008-05-14 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bredalot, 2008-05-14 02:22 am UTC

[info]mika_kun
2008-05-13 10:29 pm UTC (link)
I don't think much of that either as a general rule. Though I have read one or two fics where the child who's been adopted after the real mother dies(usually in a rather traumatizing manner) has called the more openly affectionate parent mommy when under a lot of stress (ie having a PTS induced panic attack) because he was the one who was 'protecting him'. But only then and only once. My favourite also included a bit of insight into how the kid had made the "mommy used to comfort me, this man is comforting me and I really need a hug right now" leaps.

But yeah, in general it's kinda weird and off putting if the partners identify as male.

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(no subject) - [info]coinin, 2008-05-13 10:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mika_kun, 2008-05-14 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coinin, 2008-05-14 02:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mika_kun, 2008-05-14 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mika_kun, 2008-05-14 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coinin, 2008-05-14 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2008-05-14 04:53 am UTC

[info]chelonianmobile
2008-05-13 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Or, if the kid is in his obnoxious teenage years, "sperm donor" and "thing attached to sperm donor."

Heeheehee.

(I have a male and female character who aren't together but are room-mates raising a kid together. She calls them Mama and Uncle, but thinks of them both as her parents.)

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(no subject) - [info]chelonianmobile, 2008-05-13 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]reconditarmonia, 2008-05-15 09:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chelonianmobile, 2008-05-15 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]reconditarmonia, 2008-05-15 09:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chelonianmobile, 2008-05-15 09:29 pm UTC

[info]secondsilk
2008-05-13 11:45 pm UTC (link)
I call my mum and dad by their first names because they always called each other by their first names.
My friend referred to her parents as "my mother" and "my other mother" but calls them by their first names.

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(no subject) - [info]lullabee_lj, 2008-05-14 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]spartanwerewolf, 2008-05-15 06:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2008-05-14 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bredalot, 2008-05-14 02:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jean_prouvaire, 2008-05-15 04:09 pm UTC

[info]amy_wolf
2008-05-14 12:32 am UTC (link)
Yeah, you need a fairly distinct and special reason for a man to be "Mommy." The book was called "Heather Has Two Mommies," not "Heather's Daddy Is A Woman," for a reason. And it works both ways.

A good rule of thumb is that if you don't have a strong and specific reason for doing otherwise, treat two guys in a gay relationship in all ways like they're men, and two women in a gay relationship like they're both female. Which means men are daddies and women are mommies, even if it leads to "Daddy and Papa," or "Mommy and Ma." If there's something specific to canon, or a particular bit of cultural information you know about the environment those characters come from, then it can work to treat one guy in a gay relationship, in some ways, as the woman.

But unless you've got a much better reason why than "it's easier for me to think of their relationship if you put one in the man's role and one in the woman's," just don't.

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[info]musedmoose
2008-05-14 12:45 am UTC (link)
wholly agreed. everything else I was going to say has been said, except this:

fucking heteronormativity. *headdesk*

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[info]alara_r
2008-05-14 12:55 am UTC (link)
I do actually have a story plotted where a girl comes to the conclusion that the mysterious godlike entity that's been hanging around her since childhood is probably related to her, and flat out asks him if he's her father. He tells her no, her father is her father.... and then tells her that he's her mother. :-)

To be fair he was in a female form when he had her, and found the experience so traumatic he's avoided it ever since. :-)

But yeah, generally speaking, male parents are fathers, unless there's a very compelling reason to say otherwise.

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(no subject) - [info]lily_shrike, 2008-05-14 03:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alara_r, 2008-05-14 04:38 pm UTC

[info]thesilentsenshi
2008-05-14 01:02 am UTC (link)
I find that almost as annoying as having a slash pairing marry (or that world's equivalent) and referring to one of the guys as wife. I mean, really? It throws me out of a fic every single time. And I've seen good authors do it which makes it even more painful. ):

Edited at 2008-05-14 01:03 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]lullabee_lj, 2008-05-14 01:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mika_kun, 2008-05-14 02:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thesilentsenshi, 2008-05-14 05:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chelonianmobile, 2008-05-15 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]batty_gal, 2008-05-14 01:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thesilentsenshi, 2008-05-14 05:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]batty_gal, 2008-05-14 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thesilentsenshi, 2008-05-15 12:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luriko_ysabeth, 2008-05-14 11:12 pm UTC

[info]sasori_katana
2008-05-14 02:58 am UTC (link)
Word. (Also, that fic sounds hilarious.)

The only exception to this I can think of is if one parent wanted to be called Mommy for whatever reason. My friend has a male character who is a transvestite and genderqueer, occasionally identifying more strongly as female but consistently using male pronouns for clarity's sake. He has four kids with his male partner from a previous relationship (the partner's, not his), and the kids call him Mom because, after considering it for awhile, that's what he decided he wanted to be called.

So I think it can happen, but obviously, this is a special circumstance and he's not a man all the time anyway. XD For the most part, I totally agree: two male parents are both men, and two female parents are both women.

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[info]martyfan
2008-05-14 04:15 am UTC (link)
I couldn't help but think of this.

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(no subject) - [info]lily_shrike, 2008-05-14 03:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]martyfan, 2008-05-14 04:17 pm UTC

[info]scribe_protra
2008-05-14 06:16 am UTC (link)
Word word WORD.

I looove mpreg and will userally be able to enjoy a story even with this, but it still annoys me like hell. (Except when I get sold on 'this character would use it' and off the top of my head I can only remember that happening once. and that was a hermaprodite alien who used an alien word that didn't translate to english.)

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[info]kohi_no_tora
2008-05-14 07:29 am UTC (link)
I read mostly m/m slash, so I don't know if ficcers do this with lesbian couples

It does happen occasionally. Sailor Moon fandom does it regularly, but that's Takeuchi's fault. Hotaru cannoncially calls Haruka (female) Haruka-papa after Haruka and Michiru become her regular guardians.

In Hotaru's defence Haruka can pass as male with minimal effort and occasionally likes to mess with people's heads.

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[info]icor
2008-05-14 12:47 pm UTC (link)
In one of my fandoms, the child calls her parents "Mama B" and "Mama T," and they refer to each other in the same way. I think they'd be more than a little offended if someone slapped the "dad" lable on one of them, and rightly so.

Edited at 2008-05-14 12:48 pm UTC

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[info]skieblue
2008-05-14 01:17 pm UTC (link)
In a story I'm writing there's character who has two fathers, and she calls one Dad and the other Father. The one she calls Father is the one she's not very close to, but since he is one of her parents, she has to call him something. And, I was actually stuck for a long time on what she should call her parents, because I don't like it when a character with two father's calls one Mama, even if the story is otherwise a good story.

(I hope it's okay for me to just post like this, when I've never participated in this community before. I've been reading the posts here for a while, but I've been too shy to comment. And, reading this community is making me be a lot more careful with my own writing.)

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[info]nycscribbler
2008-05-14 01:23 pm UTC (link)
My canon has a kid who calls his parents “Mommy 1” and “Mommy 2”. So cute.

In one of my projects, I have a lesbian couple with twin sons (a wizard did it to reward them for being so damn crazy about each other), and what the kids call their mothers reflects both their personality and the mother in question’s personality- the more formal boy calls the more proper woman “Mother” and the more casual woman “Mama” because she won’t let him call her “Mother”; the less formal boy calls the more proper woman “Mama” and the more casual woman “Teresa”.

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[info]falling_thorn
2008-05-14 09:49 pm UTC (link)
It happens in lesbian slash too. In Sailor Moon canon Hotaru refers to Michiru and Haruka as Michiru-mama and Haruka-papa, but I've seen it elsewhere as well.

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(no subject) - [info]coinin, 2008-05-15 01:33 pm UTC

[info]luriko_ysabeth
2008-05-14 11:15 pm UTC (link)
In 20-Mensou ni Onegai!! canon, the hero has two mothers (it's never specified whether they're a couple, sisters, cousins, or a combination thereof; they look like mirror images of each other), and they're always referred to as "Mama A" and "Mama B."

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