slashpervert ([info]slashpervert) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
@ 2008-05-01 23:37:00
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An Essay: The Curse of the WIP – The Lost Art of Rewriting in Fan Fiction
Inspired by some discussions here and in other communities, I have been thinking a lot about the craft of writing fan fiction and wanted to share this:



The Curse of the WIP – The Lost Art of Rewriting in Fan Fiction

Like many people, I rarely read Works in Progress (WIP) anymore. I only do so from someone whose work I have enjoyed in the past or whose work comes strongly recommended by someone I trust. I have been too frustrated with the lack of quality or the works that are abandoned. I also have trouble remembering what came before if there is too long of a gap between updates.

I know I am in the minority on this, but I do not publish even a single chapter of a story until I have completed an entire first draft, and usually a second or third. Maybe it is because I am a published writer of print books as well. Or maybe because I entered fandom back when we printed them on paper in fanzines. Or maybe because the one story I was co-writing with others and published before it was done was abandoned by my co-writers. No matter what the reasons, it is a policy I have come to strongly endorse. I would like fan fiction writers to take a minute and listen to my plea on behalf of the process of editing a completed work before publishing.

I firmly believe that if a writer publishes a story before the first draft is complete, they are selling their writing short. (And will often disappoint those of us reading.) Most writers do their best work in the rewrite stage. It can make the difference between mediocre writing and polished fiction.

When I worked as an editor for a fiction magazine, I was fond of the phrase: “Are you a stone-cutter or an author?” A stone-cutter is a writer who is so enamored of his/her first draft they won’t rewrite. It’s as if they think their words are so good the first time they should be carved in stone and never touched again. An author is someone who works at their craft, rewriting and trying to produce a story (or essay, etc.) that both satisfies themselves and their audience. No one can please everyone. Yet, as a craft, much of the work and skill in writing is in the editing process.

Unfortunately, if the writer only edits chapter by chapter and not the entire work as a whole, they are actually missing a large part of what makes a story work. Maybe it is episodic television that has given people the idea that chapter by chapter makes a story. The truly dismal lack of continuity on most episodic television should indicate otherwise. The best television I have seen is when the primary creator of the series actually has a vision for the overall story arc and holds the story to that vision. But fiction writers don’t have that limitation. They can write a coherent story if they give themselves the chance to, instead of jumping in too soon and publishing before it is done.

So here is what my co-authors and I do:

First draft – We write the story from beginning to end. We don't stop to correct errors or rewrite. Editing at this stage can slow one down, bring doubt into play and may often result in writer's block. (If the writer needs motivation along the way, they can find a friend who will read it for them. A friend or small group can give encouragement and ideas without locking into that first version. There is a long history of writers' circles for this kind of thing, from which both Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia benefited.)

Second draft -- After we have finished the story arc that feels good, we go back and reread the entire thing, making notes of things to change, fixing some things as we go. We do the best we can to rewrite it and then send it to a beta.

A note on betas: In the professional world, we have editors and proofreaders. They are actually separate jobs in the real world. (Sometimes there is even a third category job – fact checker.) In fan fiction, we have betas who are often called upon to do it all, and for free no less. (Bless them all.) But not all betas are good at the same things. Some can proof but not edit or vice versa. A good story really needs both. Sometimes that means more than one beta for a story unless the beta is really good at both. Editing is the stage where the beta helps evaluate the entire story – looks for inconsistencies, find the gaps in the story, places that need more or need less, sometimes reorganizing scenes or other structural/story issues. Then comes proofreading – looking for all those little mistakes that drive everyone nuts and fixing them.

Third draft – We go through and rewrite – add scenes where needed, cut where they are redundant or detract from the overall story. This is the polish that makes the biggest difference and what we can't do if we publish it a chapter at a time. We repeat this until we and our editing-beta are satisfied with the story and then send it for proofreading. It helps to have a second beta who has never seen the first drafts also read this now for fresh eyes.

Final draft – After it has been read so many times we don't know if we can look at it again and neither we nor our betas can find any more typos, then we publish.

I will publish chapters of fan fiction after I have passed the rewrite stage and as we finish the final polishing stage. Some of the best parts of my fiction would never have happened if I hadn't waited to see the entire arc and then found what was missing.

I believe that publishing it without that rewrite stage is one of the things that makes the quality of fan fiction so much lower than it could be. No first draft will ever be as good as it could be without editing and rewriting. And rewriting chapter by chapter doesn't give the consistency to make a solid story.

When I begin to publish a story, usually on a schedule of a certain number of chapters per week, people who normally don’t read WIP are more likely to read it. Why? Because they know it won’t be abandoned. It has already been written and is just being polished now. And, because they can depend on the fact that it will be published at regular intervals, they don’t have to worry about losing track of the story. Even then, there are some readers who wait until it is done and then read it all at once.

I do serialize my fan fiction, though. Meaning, I do publish one chapter at a time at regular intervals. Why do I do this? I love the interactive nature of the experience. If I publish the complete work at once, it doesn’t get near the buildup or energy from people as it does in the chapter at a time format. I try to make sure the updates are evenly spaced so that it holds the energy that people have in the story. I have found we get more feedback and the readers seem to truly get excited by this format.

It differs from the fandom WIP style of “publish as you write” because, as authors, we already have the story arc completed. I think it has saved the integrity of the story on a number of occasions. Because the story is written, we feel less pressure to “change it” to suit the fans. We do pay attention to what fans like and don’t like but we have a firmer ground for avoiding being blown off course of our own story by the whims of others than someone who hasn’t completed the story.

Does everyone have to do all this? No. If the fan fiction (or any fiction) is just a text version of costume play with their favorite characters, then they probably shouldn’t bother. (But then again, why bother to publish it either?) If it is all about the fun of writing and not about the audience or the craft of becoming a better writer, then it really doesn’t matter if it is edited. Though I am sick of many of these same “writers” whining that the story they weren’t willing to work at didn’t get enough positive feedback.

On the other hand, if a writer wants to write stories that captures people and holds their thoughts long after they have clicked away to somewhere else, they really should consider making an effort at perfecting the craft of storytelling.

Replies can be included here or at my original POST on my LJ. Warning: some nudity in my journal theme.




P.S. I use "we" in this essay much of the time because 90% of the fan fiction I have published are collaborative works with two authors. It is not meant to encompass others besides my co-authors.

P.P.S. Interesting that even though this is posted in a "rant" community, people are angry that my tone wasn't "nice."

And yes, I know that some people write well using the style I am criticising. I did point out that I read some WIP when I felt the author was good enough to pull it off. But very few people have the talent (myself included) to do as Dickens did. And even the best writer's works could probably be improved if they edit the complete work. I guess I wouldn't mind the WIP if the person were just posting to their own journal for feedback and not presenting it for wider readership on comms or archives. Or if the same people didn't get angry that we weren't raving about their work that wasn't finished and annoyed when people pointed out their mistakes. I find that it is much more useful to find a smaller group of people whose opinions are solicited and trusted than to use the comms as unsolicited betas.

Some people have replied that because they aren't getting paid, they shouldn't care about quality. My sisters are athletes and I can imagine what they would say (with much mirth and arse kicking) if someone on one of their teams gave the justification that trying their best and practising before games was a waste of time because they didn't get paid for it. Same with my friends who are into community theatre. Just because it is a hobby and fun doesn't mean one should not try to improve your skills and do the best for your team/audience.



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[info]tentationem
2008-05-02 07:15 am UTC (link)
Is there any reason why that's adult-locked? Is there...is there porn hidden inside?

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[info]slashpervert
2008-05-02 07:20 am UTC (link)
Changed it since now. It is the default on my journal because most of my fiction is adult content only.

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(no subject) - [info]tentationem, 2008-05-02 07:21 am UTC

[info]genericminion
2008-05-02 07:15 am UTC (link)
Clicked on it, your theme started loading, clicked out of it. Would you mind reposting it here?

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[info]slashpervert
2008-05-02 07:21 am UTC (link)
The theme is a problem? There is some nudity in the theme but it is no more than what you would see on TV or at the beach.

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(no subject) - [info]west_side, 2008-05-02 07:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slashpervert, 2008-05-02 07:34 am UTC

[info]lil_shepherd
2008-05-02 07:45 am UTC (link)
*Word* Lots and lots of *word*.

I don't write much fanfic nowadays, but when I do this is exactly the way I do it (except that I tend to post a friends-locked next-to-final version on my own LJ and ask for comments/open beta.) I think it must have a lot to do with starting off writing for and editing paper fanzines.

It's a matter of respect, both for your own writing and your readers.


I don't read multi-chapters until they're finished and posted, either.

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[info]inamac
2008-05-02 07:50 am UTC (link)
I do agree with most of your comments. I'm also a 'we started in print zines' fan and I do wonder whether the habit of posting WIP has as much to do with the 'instant gratification' of the internet as a lack of 'craft'.

The 'net has turned everyone into the 'small circle of friends' to whom WIP used to be circulated before finally being edited and published in 'sellable' form. Nothing wrong with that, except that once a 'draft' is up there seems to be an expectation that, no matter how many errors it may contain it can't be revised.

Maybe fandom needs a new set of terms - WIP should mean just that - a work in the progress of being written, subject to possible change, as opposed to a finished work being serialised. (What was good enough for Charles Dickens ought to be good enough for fandom.)

Shouldn't this be on metafandom rather than fanficrants?

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[info]slashpervert
2008-05-02 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Yes, and I understand the urge for the instant gratification. Comments thrill me too. I read people replying to this with "but that would be work" in what sounds like a cry of horror.

Some people have replied that because they aren't getting paid, they shouldn't care about quality. My sisters are athletes and I can imagine what they would say (with much mirth and arse kicking) if someone on one of their teams gave the justification that trying their best and practicing before games was a waste of time because they didn't get paid for it. Same with my friends who are into community theatre. Just because it is a hobby and fun doesn't mean one should not try to improve your skills and do the best for your team/audience.

One of the things I like about publishing on the net that is better than the "good old days" (besides not having to get paper cuts collating the fanzine or lugging them around), is that we can go back and correct mistakes. When readers find typos, inconsistencies or other errors, I am delighted that I can go into the post or archives and change it. (As I have done with this essay.)

I guess I wouldn't mind the WIP if the person were just posting to their own journal for feedback and not presenting it for wider readership on comms or archives. Or if the same people didn't get angry that we weren't raving about their work that wasn't finished and annoyed when people pointed out their mistakes. I find that is is much more useful to find a smaller group of people whose opinions are solicited and trusted than to use the comms as unsolicited betas.

I love the serialized format myself. But very few people are good enough (myself included) to pull of the write as you go as Dickens did.

It might be interesting to have it on metafandom. My understanding of that is that you have to post it somewhere first and then someone (don't know if the author or someone else) submits it to the metafandom moderator. Don't know if it would better to link to here or my LJ since my "theme" apparently disturbed/blocked some people.

Edited at 2008-05-02 08:53 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]inamac, 2008-05-02 08:55 pm UTC

[info]thesilentsenshi
2008-05-02 08:20 am UTC (link)
I used to post wip's but now I don't unless I have it finished or almost finished. Most of what I write now is oneshot so it doesn't really matter as much. I haven't deleted my old unfinished stuff (though I've been tempted) because a) it shows my growth, b) I'm a pack rat and hate to delete or get rid of anything, abd c) I may want to continue it someday and don't have it backed up elsewhere.

Technically when I write, I do it on a notepad and when I type it, go in and make the necessary edits and changes. It seems to work well enough for me.

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[info]vampirenaomi
2008-05-02 08:56 am UTC (link)
You make lots of excellent points, but this kind of writing doesn't really work for me. Back when I started writing fanfiction, I used to finish all my stories before posting them because I was afraid I might lose interest and end up with an unfinished story and disappointed readers. I eventually drifted out of this habit because everybody else was posting chapter by chapter.

Maybe my stories would be better if I finished several drafts, edited them and only posted when the whole thing was as polished as it could be. I won't lie; the main reason I don't do that is that it's simply more work than I'm ready to put into fanfiction. If I wrote something professionally, then yes, but to me fanfiction is a relaxing hobby and a way to connect with other people in the fandom. I enjoy those reviews I get after each chapter, discussing current and future plot points with my readers, getting input and advice in the middle and so on.

I have no preference when it comes to reading, either. Of course it's great if the whole story is done and you can immerse yourself into it and read it all at once. However, I also love giving people reviews, talking about their fic with them, giving them suggestions if they're uncertain about where they're going etc. I also love the feeling of seeing an update alert in your inbox after a rough day. Reading is just half of the fun for me, and some of my best friends in the world were originally people I got to know through discussing their fanfics.

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[info]dinogrrl
2008-05-02 09:06 am UTC (link)
:O You're the first person with a Jackie Chan Adventures icon I've ever seen.

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(no subject) - [info]vampirenaomi, 2008-05-02 09:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dinogrrl, 2008-05-02 02:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chandra_nox, 2008-05-02 10:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bre_the_writer, 2008-05-02 01:43 pm UTC

[info]dinogrrl
2008-05-02 09:05 am UTC (link)
Depends on what I'm writing, to be honest.

I had an Epic Fanfic that I wrote once. Did a rough draft of it and everything. Stopped posting it before I was finished, and honestly? Not going to finish it unless I rewrite it again (which would be a most massive undertaking). But the rough draft helped, because it was an Epic Story, and I had to make sure I kept everything under control.

Now? I'm writing a new fanfic that actually is semi-episodic (each chapter or couple of chapters could stand alone, but there is an overall story that becomes more apparent if you read them in order). I know where I want the story to go in general, but I only write one chapter at a time because it works better for me, and that's the nature of the narrative itself.

Yes, I'd be highly embarrassed to unleash something that's below par for me unto my unsuspecting audience. But I'm not getting paid for writing fanfic, and it's not getting me any grades in school.


Strange but true, I actually tend to get bored with stories that I write complete rough drafts of; like I said, I never finished editing and posting the Epic Fanfic and I don't see myself doing it in the near future, and it's not the first fully-written-out story of mine that's happened to. I love writing shorter stories/chapters though. ADHD? Who knows.

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[info]dreams_of_all
2008-05-02 09:15 am UTC (link)
Hmmm. My personal method is to work out a firm outline, then write on a chapter-by-chapter basis; rarely, I'll change that outline once it's set. I post by chapter, and it works for me. Of course, I also have absolutely no problem with following WIP fics--If I didn't, I would have even less goodfic to read than I have now.

Quite frankly, I think my fic has merit even without a write-it-out-fully-before-posting approach. Maybe you have trouble with it, but it works for me. I have never felt pressured to change something for reader approval, although I have, on one or two occasions, been inspired by comments reviewers left. This is part of the process for me: involving others.

And you know what? There is a very good chance you are a better writer than I am. There are a lot of them out there. There is a higher number of writers who are worse than I am. I doubt this has much to do with how I write. My version works for me: I edit seriously on a chapter-by-chapter basis, but I always have a full outline of how I want a story to go--often with scene-by-scene rundowns of each chapter--in my head when I'm working, so it's simply not a problem for me.

In conclusion: there is not one correct way to write a fanfic. Congratulations, you've found something that works for you; please don't assume it will work equally well for everyone.

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[info]ketita
2008-05-02 09:33 am UTC (link)
When I work on a story, I generally plan out the entire thing inside my mind before writing - major plot points, twists, general direction, and when it's going to end. After I start writing, then I write out points to remember, because things get complicated and I don't want to forget anything. In that sense, I don't start a Project with no direction and no point, but I've also found that if I rehash a scene too many times, I lose interest in it.

Right now I'm working on a semi-long WIP, and have been for a year already, with fairly regular updates (average of twice a month). If I were to use the strategy you describe, I'm sure my story would have ended up a better story, at least in terms of structure and polishing. But one of my favorite plot twists actually came as a result of an offhand comment by one of my reviewers - and if they hadn't sparked that thought, the story would have ended up completely different, and not necessarily better.
I guess what I'm saying is, I admit it could be better, but I honestly think it's pretty darn good as it is, and more importantly, it's good enough for me at this moment. I enjoy writing it, and people enjoy reading it.

I think that's enough for me right now.

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[info]demondogweed
2008-05-02 02:09 pm UTC (link)
I do the same, I don't know why, but for me, writing is like printing the text (or mental-animation) to the screen. So after I've done it, I REALLY do not want to redo it.

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[info]apollymi
2008-05-02 10:58 am UTC (link)
As a reader of fan fiction, I couldn't agree more that it can be annoying to be enjoying a story, only to find it not finished. It's not the end of the world, though. And maybe I'm just lucky that most of the authors I read almost always finish their stories, but to read this, one would think no one who does WIP-style writing ever finishes.

As a writer of fan fiction, I disagree. Fan fiction is my - and many others', I'm sure, based on comments and what I have heard - release from the pressures of writing professionally. I suppose one could say it is a release from reality.

I do still write and release WIPs (even though I am a published author, the same as yourself). My readers know that there are exactly two stories I haven't finished since I started writing fan fiction nearly ten years ago. They know to expect mine to be completed. They also know that I release chapters and one shots the way I do because I am always either working on a new novel for publication or editing one to be sent back to my publisher.

And as an author, I resent the implication that stories are only good if they are completed and use your method listed above in your miniature essay. Everyone has a method that works for them. Yours works for you, but please do not try to force it on everyone. It just won't work.

Edited at 2008-05-02 11:00 am UTC

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[info]kd_bug
2008-05-02 11:20 am UTC (link)
*grabs this method and runs like the wind back to NaNo rewrite land* Thank you for posting this. =) It's informative and easy to follow, even if a tad one-sided. As some people said, they follow strict outlines, which works for them. *shrug* As one who gave up, and never went back to, WIPs because of stuff like getting off track, having no idea where to go, etc., this is pretty good advice. :)

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Pardon the cliche, but web 2.0?
[info]12_drakon
2008-05-02 11:22 am UTC (link)
I cringe about many "web 2.0" conversations, but I ran into a good definition recently that I actually like: "Web 1.0 connects people to networks. Web 2.0 connects people to people."

I think the idea is to invite people to participate in the PROGRESS of "works in progress." Publishing becomes instant, and it is understood by everybody involved that "everything is always in Beta" (another good definition of web 2.0). The process you describe means that you are working ALONE through all those drafts. For most people, it would mean never finishing the work, or in fact never starting, for a variety of psychological reasons everybody here have surely felt.

In the case of an established, experienced and motivated writer like yourself, your "unit of community connection" is a chapter. You say, "I love the interactive nature of the experience" - and you can also survive the non-interactive nature of the experience of creating that longer piece. Other people may need to work on smaller units of the story before their need to connect to people kicks in.

Which bring me, in my typical slow way, to a couple of questions I have for you.

- What is the smallest possible unit for serializing your fiction, for which it still makes sense to use the draft process you describe, on each unit separately?

- Can one go through the multiple revision process in public? With the understanding that it is a beta version, and that many re-writes will happen?

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Re: Pardon the cliche, but web 2.0?
[info]genericminion
2008-05-02 11:30 am UTC (link)
Can one go through the multiple revision process in public? With the understanding that it is a beta version, and that many re-writes will happen?

You could, but I'm not sure whether your average reader would bother to go back and re-read chapters that they have mostly read before, so they probably would miss most of the editing work.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Pardon the cliche, but web 2.0? - [info]12_drakon, 2008-05-02 11:35 am UTC
Re: Pardon the cliche, but web 2.0? - [info]slashpervert, 2008-05-02 10:25 pm UTC
Re: Pardon the cliche, but web 2.0? - [info]12_drakon, 2008-05-03 12:37 am UTC
Re: Pardon the cliche, but web 2.0? - [info]speaky_bean, 2008-05-03 04:44 pm UTC

[info]cmar_wingnut
2008-05-02 11:43 am UTC (link)
I agree that's an ideal way of writing, and it works for some people. I do pretty much the same for most of my multi-chapter stories, except for the multiple betas. (Seriously, it's hard enough to find one good beta who's willing to put in the time and effort to do half the work you're talking about.) Usually it's been of value, although not to the extent you're implying here. By the way, I've gotten greater benefit from something you don't mention - putting the story aside for a couple of weeks and then going over it with a relatively fresh eye.

The problem with your premise is that - you're not everyone, and everyone is not you. Different people write differently, and what works for you won't work for everyone. Some people write from such a detailed outline that they don't need to tinker with the plot. Some people really do produce their best writing in the first draft and edit only to correct mistakes. Some people work best a chapter at a time. Some people write the story from beginning to end, others jump around writing important scenes and then filling in the gaps. The method you talk about here is a good one, that's not in doubt, but it's not the only good method.

I've seen great stories written chapter by chapter - also some great profic novels, by the way, which were originally published in serial form in magazines. So while I agree that ideally a writer should complete a long story first so that any adjustment of the plot doesn't have to be done post-publication, and that the vast majority of fanfic writers need to do a lot more editing and rewriting and should try to find good betas, I wouldn't start telling people that they MUST do it this way if they want their writing to be any good. The real problem in fanfic is not writers who don't follow your formula, it's writers who don't care enough to put in the time and effort to do the best they can in the way that works best for them.

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[info]auctasinistra
2008-05-03 05:59 pm UTC (link)
The real problem in fanfic is not writers who don't follow your formula, it's writers who don't care enough to put in the time and effort to do the best they can in the way that works best for them.


This goes in the "Word" nutshell.

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(no subject) - [info]firefox1490, 2009-01-21 06:35 am UTC

[info]trusuprise
2008-05-02 11:59 am UTC (link)
I agree on the merits of waiting to post your story until it's been completely drafted, or even completely written. I never post a story until I've written at least 3/4 of the overall chapters.

Even given that a writer has a great outline with which to follow, that doesn't mean that the more the writer writes, the more he/she can look back and say, "Hey, I could tweak this is chapter 2, I could add that to chapter 4 to make chapter 10 even better," etc, etc.

You get much better unity in a fic when you have the ability to go back and edit what hasn't yet been posted.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dreams_of_all
2008-05-02 03:15 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I could tweak and play with what I've written unendingly--seriously. It would never stop. That style of writing doesn't work for me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nenya85
2008-05-02 12:43 pm UTC (link)
I certainly agree that rewriting is an important component of writing, as is editing and proofreading. For me, it’s a matter of waiting for the version that feels right, as opposed to settling for a draft that seems good enough.

However when it comes to your lengthy list of how to accomplish this, and at what stage to post, I think you have to realize that what works for you is not necessarily the universally best way for everyone. For example in the paragraph where you say: “Write the story from beginning to end. Don't stop to correct errors or rewrite,” you later reference Tolkien (regarding reading to friends) although he did not follow the follow the advice in your opening sentence in any way. He repeatedly (some would say obsessively) rewrote and reworked the early parts of the story before completing a first draft, as is evident from both the published drafts of the LotR and from his own letters. Other authors, including F. Scott Fitzgerald also polished each chapter before moving on to the next.

The tone of your essay (because I hope we can agree that tone is an important component of writing) can lead someone to easily infer that you believe that the method you have advocated is the only one that will produce a quality story. As a published writer (and I admit to a certain skepticism about people using being a published writer as a sign of the absolute truth of what they are saying) and editor, I’m surprised that the fact that people write in different ways seems to have escaped you. Ironically, I take a somewhat similar approach to writing to the one you advocate, in that I complete a rough first draft before posting, do extensive rewriting and beta each chapter before posting, but although every good writer I know (fanfiction, fiction or non-fiction) rewrites and edits their work before posting, printing or submitting, I have never met or even heard of two people who do it in exactly the same way or who take the same approach to writing.

Also, are you sure you coined the phrase: “Are you a stone cutter or an author?” My art teacher in high school used to say “Are you a stone-cutter or a painter?” meaning that it is possible in oil painting to revise. I’ve also heard it in other contexts, leading me to think that the saying, “Are you a stone cutter or an X?” is possibly a somewhat common analogy.

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[info]lookingforwater
2008-05-02 01:04 pm UTC (link)
If serialized write-and-revise-as-you-go stories were good enough for Dickens and Leroux, they're bloody well good enough for me.

ETA: Craft? CRAFT? Lady, take a break from fandom. Writing is a craft. Fanfiction is a hobby that utilizes your craft.

Edited at 2008-05-02 01:06 pm UTC

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[info]toboe_lonewolf
2008-05-02 04:10 pm UTC (link)
Seconded.

Fanfic is for fun. This also includes the "I wrote this at 3AM on 2 hours of sleep and it contains some seriously hilariously bad stuff. Guys, please laugh at me." Fanfic is also about sharing silly, stupid stuff among friends. Sometimes, that is all it is, and not some uber-epic, srs bizness, character-intensive fanfic utilizing three betas and having fifteen side-stories.

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(no subject) - [info]rebelintosanity, 2008-05-02 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toboe_lonewolf, 2008-05-03 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sans_pertinence, 2008-05-02 07:49 pm UTC

[info]phoenixblaze
2008-05-02 01:34 pm UTC (link)
Well, from my own experiences of working on my novels and what other published authors have told me as an aspiring novelist, that all fits. In fact, it's the same thing that I've learned from doing NaNoWriMo, which is how I learned to just write and wait to edit until the end. Unfortunately, editing is my weak point, but I'm hoping that between my writing friends and English professors I may be able to get out a draft that I'd be willing to send out to a publisher.

However, for fanfiction? I think it's a bit much. I don't have that much time for my fandoms between being a full time college student, working full time, and trying to get published. I have my friends in my fandom, so I wrote for myself and them, and none of us are super picky as long as the characters are IC and the plot's realistic (unless of course, it's a crackfic.) But it's just for fun. It's a little practice with experimenting with writing styles and character development, but if I'm going to spend that much time on any of my writing, it's going to be my original works, not my fanfiction.

Laurence Watt-Evans has an interest point here that I just wanted to bring into this discussion. He pretty says that writing fanfiction isn't really going to help you in your writing career, and I don't know, I just thought it might be relevant for some people.

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[info]dreams_of_all
2008-05-02 01:55 pm UTC (link)
I read about halfway through the link you provided, and I have to say, I would not be half the writer I am today if it wasn't for fanfiction. (Admittedly, I am still not published.)

I think 'fanzines will get you editorial attention' (as he says) is ridiculous, true, but the level of feedback you get is considerably higher than he seems to think--for me at least--and, really, one of the most important things about improving your writing is to practice. Which fanfiction has done for me, among many, many other things.

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(no subject) - [info]phoenixblaze, 2008-05-02 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreams_of_all, 2008-05-02 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenixblaze, 2008-05-02 02:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2008-05-02 02:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenixblaze, 2008-05-02 03:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2008-05-02 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenixblaze, 2008-05-02 03:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2008-05-02 03:37 pm UTC

[info]alara_r
2008-05-02 01:58 pm UTC (link)
I like your suggestions, and I think they are the "right" way to do it, but they are not the way I am able to do it, because I write too goddamn long.

I am bad with the WIPs. I admit it. But I write at much greater length than the majority of fanficcers; one of my WIPs is actually at this point the length of three professional novels and it's only half done. If I had never posted it until I was done with it, I would have run out of steam a long time ago -- one of the reasons I keep pushing myself to finish it is that it has a huge fan base (I'm not making this up to make myself sound better -- there's 187 members of a mailing list that exists solely to distribute the parts of this story as I come out with them, and that's before I have enough to hit general publication.) It's also been very influential -- five other writers have done stories based either directly on it or loosely, using the same concept but inspired by it -- and all of *their* fics are finished. :-) It would never have been published in the first place if I'd used the method you suggest. (I *do* try to have a really large segment of it ready before I go to general publication -- something between 50 and 100K words -- and only release the tiny piece by piece to the mailing list.)

So philosophically I agree with you, and I *wanted* to do it that way... but when you have 50K of fanfic words sitting on your hard drive that you've reviewed and checked and rechecked and had all your close friends beta for you, the temptation to post is overwhelming, and I, at least, couldn't resist it.

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[info]phoenixblaze
2008-05-02 02:07 pm UTC (link)
That is a crazy amount of fanfiction right there. Holy crap.

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(no subject) - [info]dreams_of_all, 2008-05-02 02:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slashpervert, 2008-05-02 09:21 pm UTC

[info]lullabee_lj
2008-05-02 02:04 pm UTC (link)
I kind of got to regretting not having done that with a fic I'm theoretically working on. I realized, after I'd done the first two chapters, that I wanted to change an event that I was going to put some time prior to the beginning of the story. Very pivotal event to the story and one of the characters' psyches, so he's acting a bit odd if the event happened more recently than it'd originally been placed. He always acts odd, though, so it kind of works. And the fic as I wrote it really should have had another chapter at the beginning. Oh, and due to my lack of research and thinking things through, there's a few details that are a bit off.

But, really, I still don't think I could just write it all before posting it. I'm not so sure I want a beta-- I haven't written at all since November, I'd be dropping in all, "Hi, beta! Remember me? I stayed up all night and wrote these three chapters all of a sudden!"-- and without reviewers, I'd have no idea if my foreshadowing is getting a bit too subtle or ham-handed, what people want to see next (if it was going to happen off-screen for the sake of expediency or I wasn't sure what to write myself, I might listen), if it just isn't pretty, if there's something I'm doing right that I didn't think I was doing right, etc. I could possibly combine the two approaches and just post a chapter at a time and edit based on reviews, but... that'd be really hard.

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[info]trudirose
2008-05-02 02:39 pm UTC (link)
This is useful advice on one system of doing things, but I can tell you right now that it wouldn't work for me.

The way I work is this: I first come up with an outline for the whole story, beginning, middle, and end, so I have a framework to work with and I know where I'm going.

Then I start writing it. Sometimes I do jump ahead and write later scenes if I feel inspired to do so. With each individual chapter, I do a first draft, then edit it, then show it to my beta and others, then edit and rewrite and polish that chapter as much as possible before I post it. So I DO try to get each chapter as good as possible before posting.

However...once the entire STORY is done? I'm done. I have absolutely zero interest in going back and rewriting earlier chapters at that point. I definitely tinker with individual chapters WHEN I'm writing those chapters, but when the whole story is finished, I'm psychologically done with it and I want to go on to the next story.

Now, certainly, if this was a novel that I was submitting to a publisher or agent, then I WOULD go back and try to polish even more as much as possible. It wouldn't be at all FUN for me to do it, but if I was trying to really get published, I would consider it necessary.

But since I'm only writing fanfic and I'm doing it as a hobby, I don't feel that I have to put myself through that extra amount of work. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT agreeing with the fanbrats who say "Who cares if the spelling and grammar are all wrong and it's OOC? It's just for fun!" I DO believe in trying to put out high-quality work that people will enjoy reading. But I draw the line at doing MORE editing and rewriting once the entire story is finished! I'm just not willing to do that.

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[info]tejas
2008-05-02 02:54 pm UTC (link)
Word.

And for those talking about outlining versus drafting... that detailed, chapter by chapter outline, for those of you who do it, *is* your first draft in most of the ways that count. Some of us can't outline to save our souls (in school, I always wrote whatever it was I was assigned *first* and then went back and produced the outline that I had to turn in way before the paper/story/whatever was due).

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[info]dreams_of_all
2008-05-02 03:14 pm UTC (link)
Well, yes, my outline is my first draft. Keep in mind, though, that the OP seems to think that first draft only translates to actually writing everything out, which an outline does not cover. At all. Even a really complete one.

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(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2008-05-02 03:20 pm UTC

[info]exp630kila
2008-05-02 03:02 pm UTC (link)
I try to finish a story before I post it too- yeah, I'm the one who made the 'WIPs are good!' post, but I don't post them myself, because I'm one of those people that writes random scenes throughout the story and then joins them together. So if I posted a WIP, it would be quite confusing.

However, I know everyone writes differently, and some authors are really very good about uploading a chapter every week or however often they do it. It's how they work.

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[info]esme_amelia
2008-05-02 03:27 pm UTC (link)
I agree with a lot of what people have been saying. You have some good points, but the "holier than thou" tone of your essay is off-putting.

Personally, the "post it as you go" thing works for me. I of course edit my chapters and make sure I'm happy with them before posting, but I enjoy seeing anticipation build up in my readers. I aspire to be a published author, and yes, I have several regular novels in the works that I wouldn't dream of publishing before they were finished, but fanfic is more my "letting off steam" writing. I of course want my stories to be GOOD, but I don't feel the need to stress myself out writing draft after draft after draft of it. If I were to do what you proposed, it would probably take me around five years to finish even one fic, and by then I might have lost interest in it altogether. And no, I do NOT feel pressure to change stories to suit the fans' needs. If people lose interest because I took too long updating or the story took a turn they didn't like, that's their problem, not mine.

Of course, with shorter works I DO wait until their finished to post them, but with really long fics I enjoy posting them by chapters.

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[info]beccastareyes
2008-05-02 03:37 pm UTC (link)
I think one of the most important things as a writer is to figure out what works for you. I tried the serial method and found it worked fine, but wasn't so good if I took a long time to finish a work, since I ended up hating my beginning writing. I'm using the multiple-draft method now, which might be slower (I don't know if it's real life, or the drafting), but works better for the mystery fic I'm writing it with. I also like the writing program I got, which lets me leave margin notes to myself in my writing files -- it lets me note things I want to edit, without spending hours fussing with them.

I also outline, but keep it flexible -- I figure rewriting lets me change my mind.

(Really, I like the NaNo method -- write a first draft in a single sitting, wait a month or two (work on something else), then revise. What I need to do is set up a slower NaNo program that I can maintain -- sort of the equivalent of taking a 15 minute jog every day, rather than running a marathon.)

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[info]0_567395
2008-05-02 03:39 pm UTC (link)
This is a fabulous post.

It strikes me as silly that people are getting annoyed and explaining why this doesn't work for everyone because, yeah. Nothing works for everyone. But if an essay constantly emphasizes how "this is just my opinion" or "this is just how it works for me," it's a crappy essay.

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