fanficrants: Reviewers.

Maiyri (maiyri) wrote in

fanficrants,
@ 2008-04-29 14:54:00

Entry tags:

*sniffsniff* something is burning, bloody hell not again, entitlement wheeeeeee, look look i'm an internet badass, no just no, someone's asking for trouble

Reviewers.
Inspired by my previous post, but mainly it's comments, which you can find http://community.livejournal.com/fanficrants/6719752.html <-here.

Reviewers. We all love 'em, even if they exasperate us a little bit sometimes. Fact is, it's hard to review decently. Of course, it's really easy to leave something short and meaningless like 'loved it, post more'.

It's not easy to give a concrit review without offending someone. What you're doing is saying how something can be done better, and too many people take this as being 'you sucked, you should have done this instead'.

Nobody gives critters a bit of slack. Writers get concrit to get better at what they do. When do concritters get concrit to get better?

They don't.

They don't get told how to say this more politely, or how to phrase this better. They get flamed by all sorts of people for being 'assholes' or dickheads who are total perfectionists who everyone hates.

And I'm looking at you, lots of people from Fanficrants who didn't bother saying anything useful on the other thread. Why not instead of insulting me for "all but flaming a twelve year old", who I didn't know was a twelve year old until she pointed this fact out in a review reply, say something that might help me in dealing with her.

Yours annoyed..
Mai

P.S. Instead of references to the previous post, could I actually get some decent advice on how to better concrit someone else?

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rekallthegreat
2008-04-29 03:13 am UTC (link)

say something that might help me in dealing with her

So you want to continue to fight with her? Wow, what an amazing person you are!

Here's how to "deal" with her. Report her! I feel for her being picked on by two idiot adults who can't take on people their own age, but she shouldn't be on the site. You can also report her for posting chapters that are only A/N, which is also not allowed. Let admin deal with her and you forget about it!

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genericminion, 2008-04-29 07:11 am UTC

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bluebombardier, 2008-04-29 04:14 pm UTC

via_diagnosis
2008-04-29 03:14 am UTC (link)

I might have taken this seriously if you hadn't said "Nobody gives critters slack". And from then on it just sounded like whining.

I agree with you that the "Wow, way to gang up on a twelve-year-old before you knew she was a twelve-year-old" seemed to miss the point, but it's not really something to take personally, and certainly not something to make an entire other post complaining.

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(no subject) - maiyri, 2008-04-29 03:17 am UTC

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via_diagnosis, 2008-04-29 03:26 am UTC

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elektra_alpha, 2008-04-29 05:23 am UTC

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kari_izumi, 2008-04-29 10:30 pm UTC

ajora
2008-04-29 03:18 am UTC (link)

So, uh, wasn't here for the first thread, but you've really come across as self-important and condescending in that thread and then this post. Just thought you ought to know. You might want to consider that there are other people behind that screen too that can get hurt by your words (and this goes for every self-professed "concritter" who uses "constructive criticism" as an excuse to rip into someone). Tone doesn't convey well across the intertubez.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just one of the unwashed lurkers of fanficrants.

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(no subject) - maiyri, 2008-04-29 03:22 am UTC

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domlandbubbles, 2008-04-29 03:31 am UTC

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ajora, 2008-04-29 03:32 am UTC

ghost2
2008-04-29 03:21 am UTC (link)

Look, there's a difference between being mean and being useful. You said some cruel things to that author. Now, while I might post withering comments in my LJ or at GAFF about a lousy story, I would not go over to that person's story and leave a review couched in the exact same language. I'd at least make an effort to be polite and helpful. It's concrit, not a flame.

Also, I don't care if the writer was 12 or 42; being rude and nasty is uncalled for unless the person has really done something horrific and offensive. Writing a bad story doesn't qualify.

It seems you want people to cheer on your nastiness, and you get mad when they don't laugh along with you. I think the problem here is YOU.

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ghost2, 2008-04-29 03:53 am UTC

	alandrea 2008-04-29 03:21 am UTC (link)
	a) This is a bit more suited to ffrantsrants. b) Concritters, as I've just discovered, get concrit when they post things like your previous post. There was actually some advice for giving constructive criticism in the comments. (Reply to this)

krisherdown
2008-04-29 03:22 am UTC (link)

Here's what confuses me: if she's such a pain, why do you go back for more. Move on to another story.

The truth is that particular author wouldn't have been able to take good criticism. Previous reviewers had said she needed spellcheck and to write longer chapters - legitimate gripes - yet she didn't listen then.

I had assumed the author didn't specify being 12 until the second concrit review - yet I still thought both of you were out of line. I could see how the first reviewer led to her sad author's note. I'm not going to go into specifics on that one since it's not your review. Just reading that "chapter" at ff.net, there was nothing bitchy about the reply (now, if she did so elsewhere, I take it back) and it really shouldn't have been posted like that for all her fans to see so they could rally behind her and hate that reviewer.

Your review - you don't attack the writer. Period. The "little girl" comments (even not knowing the age) were rude. Of course she got defensive. I see nothing in what you wrote that has anything to do with helping her story. You're defending the first reviewer, and "take criticism like a proper human being" is not exactly being constructive either.

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silver_chipmunk
2008-04-29 03:24 am UTC (link)

Rule number one for all internet interactions: remember there's a real human being on the other side of the screen. If you wouldn't say it to their face, don't write it on the net. Honestly, if you were face to face with a person holding theor manuscript in paper form, with a hopeful look on their face, would you have spoken to that person the way you wrote that review? I sincerly doubt it.

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berseker, 2008-04-29 03:59 am UTC

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0_567395, 2008-04-29 04:15 am UTC

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bredalot, 2008-04-29 04:23 am UTC

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pandarus, 2008-05-01 07:42 am UTC

likeahobbit
2008-04-29 03:29 am UTC (link)

Why didn't you respond in the original post?

It's not easy to give a concrit review without offending someone. What you're doing is saying how something can be done better, and too many people take this as being 'you sucked, you should have done this instead'.

Except the entire tone of your review and the review your friend left essentially *was* 'you suck, you should have done this instead.'

Personally, if I was actually interested in the plot of the story and actually wanted to help the author improve I would have left a message like 'I think you have an interesting premise here, but you have several grammar and spelling errors that make it difficult for readers to enjoy your story. If you like, I can help you fix some of those things. PM me if you're interested.' That way she isn't being bashed in public and *she* gets to decide if she wants to take me up on my offer or not.

They don't get told how to say this more politely, or how to phrase this better. They get flamed by all sorts of people for being 'assholes' or dickheads who are total perfectionists who everyone hates.

I don't believe anybody in the other post said such a thing.

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auctasinistra, 2008-04-29 01:50 pm UTC

minni
2008-04-29 03:33 am UTC (link)

Okay, here’s something that help everyone deal with this young chit: don't expect a response that's any more mature or any more pleasant than with what you started. That's right. The reviewer started this whole mess with an impatient, condescending air. To expect anyone to respond in any manner that isn't unlike such a review is beyond arrogant.

And now, just because this next part is a pet-peeve of mine....

Writers get concrit to get better at what they do.

News flash, writers get better by writing more. Practice makes perfect and all that. I know that this is a startling revelation to many people out there. You didn't so much point out mistakes as you throttled the mistakes and then proceeded to bludgeon the writer over the head with them. People who aren't ready and willing to see and learn from their own mistakes are not going to be willing to listen to advice, particularly when it's blunt, painful, tactless, and condescending. People who strive to overcome their mistakes in writing do so by writing more. Then they go back and edit. Then they continue writing. As practice continues their skill evolves until the person looks back five, ten, fifteen years from where they first began and say, "Holy cow, was I a real brat when I was twelve or what!"

The kid is cornered, feels defensive, probably has self-esteem issues (as so many preteen and teenagers do; it's just par of the course), and gets a critique that is almost worthless, because it doesn't really address the problems on any level that's going to have the writer wanting to fix her mistakes.

Does that justify the kid's replies and behaviors? No, not in the least. But if we ignore how none of this would have happened if the person hadn't written the story in the first place, the author is merely reacting - the bulk of the fault lies on that first reviewer.

People, is it really necessary to make this entire debacle public by posting the concrit as a review? God, if you're going to rip someone apart, at least try and give them the dignity of doing so privately, like through a PM.

You know, it's really sad when I feel like I have to side with the fit-throwing 12-year-old.

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speaky_bean, 2008-04-29 03:48 am UTC

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minni, 2008-04-29 04:02 am UTC

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rainejoybringer, 2008-04-29 12:51 pm UTC

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dinogrrl, 2008-04-29 04:41 am UTC

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minni, 2008-04-29 04:55 am UTC

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dinogrrl, 2008-04-29 05:33 am UTC

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minni, 2008-04-29 05:57 am UTC

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dreams_of_all, 2008-04-29 03:36 pm UTC

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kazaera, 2008-04-29 06:10 am UTC

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minni, 2008-04-29 04:17 pm UTC

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darsynia, 2008-05-01 04:01 pm UTC

lookninjas
2008-04-29 03:42 am UTC (link)

Fair enough, then.

In my creative writing program, the teachers encouraged the "sandwich" approach. Start off by saying something positive, even if it was completely vague and bland (something like "It's an interesting concept..."). Then you go into the problems you had with the story. Stick to large issues, like characterization, or plot, or tone; if you have issues with the grammar or spelling, maybe mention it once, but don't point out every misspelled word and missing comma. Use a lot of "I" phrases: "I had a hard time reconciling this with the character as he/she is in canon," "I felt this scene was jarring and didn't fit the tone of the story," "I was confused by this scene." Then finish with another compliment (again, even if it's vague), and a hope that they consider your opinions. If you like, you may offer to beta at this point, stressing that you think their story has potential.

Bluntness is wonderful among friends, or from your beta. But when you're leaving a review, you're generally doing it for a stranger. You can't know things like how old they are, all of that. So it's better to err on the side of gentleness, I think.

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twistedsheets10, 2008-04-29 05:47 am UTC

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pandarus, 2008-05-01 07:56 am UTC

	0_567395 2008-04-29 03:44 am UTC (link)
	This post is an example of a way to ask how to give good concrit without sounding like a complete tl;dr jackass, and also contains many responses that you might find helpful if you actually want to give good concrit. (Reply to this)

	abranab 2008-04-29 03:45 am UTC (link)
	A spoonful of sugar, etc. I tend to use a lot of positive padding to flesh out the concrit, and always end and begin on a good note. If it's extremely bad, I tend to not finish reading let alone review. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - maiyri, 2008-04-29 03:50 am UTC

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lullabee_lj, 2008-04-29 04:20 am UTC

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abranab, 2008-04-29 05:29 am UTC

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lookninjas, 2008-04-29 01:54 pm UTC

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lyorn, 2008-04-29 02:43 pm UTC

xiphugus
2008-04-29 03:51 am UTC (link)

could I actually get some decent advice on how to better concrit someone else?

Use the phrase "I think" a lot. When talking on the internet, it helps give the impression that you're not trying to sound like you're a know-it-all. Try to point out the good first, then move on to the bad (except for think of it as "could be improved" rather than "badbadbad").

If there are a LOT that could be improved, don't nitpick on every little mistake - just point out a few major issues. Give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it was a typo. Maybe she was on crack when she was writing her story. If the same mistakes persisted in her next story, THEN you could mention them (though again, don't go overboard).

You would probably lose some self-esteem if your English teacher pointed out every little thing you did wrong on your paper, so what you wouldn't want to be done to you... don't do it to others.

(Reply to this)

	iczer6 2008-04-29 03:52 am UTC (link)
	I agree with the above commenter's that offering a compliment helps. (Reply to this)

berseker
2008-04-29 03:55 am UTC (link)

Well. I usually review things that I like, so I often have lots of compliments to make up for the criticism. That helps, I think.

Anyway, I guess there are two rules that I follow. The first is never, ever, insulting the person. If you call someone, say, fanthing, fantard, or stuff like that, the person will just be rightly offended. For some strange reason, sporkers are always doing that, and then they complain that the author didn’t graciously accepted their criticism (ok, this has nothing to do with you, but it’s been driving me crazy lately and I wanted to rant about it ^_^). And the second rule is not to give everything at once. If the story is completely crap, I usually pick one or two things to comment and leave it at that. Some times it’s punctuation, some times it’s characterization... whatever it is that annoyed me the most. When I read about a blatant Mary Sue, I just point out that every character needs flaws and the author might want to give some to her characters, stuff like that and leave the purple prose for another occasion.

I guess the important thing is to remember that everybody makes mistakes and that we were beginners once, and to think “how I would have felt back then if someone had said this to me?” when we are writing criticism.

And always, always remember that everybody is free to write crap and post it. I remember one time my beta-reader insisted that my story wasn’t working and, although she had a point, I’d rather change her than change the story. Why? Because I liked the way it was. And that was it. (I kinda feel sorry for the girl. Back then I was afraid one day I’d go to f-rants and see her ranting about me)

I could say more, but this is getting way tl;dr as it is.

(Reply to this)

nenya85
2008-04-29 03:58 am UTC (link)

Here are some suggestions:

1) I think the first thing you need to do is decide whether you want to offer concrit as opposed to simply leaving a negative review. If you want to offer concrit this means you want to help her tell the story she is telling in a way that is clearer and easier for others to read and enjoy. Telling her she should be writing a different story entirely or deleting this one and never writing again is not concrit. I’m not saying you did this, just that there seems to be a common misconception that telling something what to write is the same thing as offering concrit.

2) If you’re offering concrit, there must be something you like about the story. (If you hate everything about it and think she should delete it and try again in three or four years, see point #1 about what is and isn’t concrit.) Assuming there is something you like, tell the writer that in as much detail as whatever you want to rip apart. One thing I think is helpful is to list at least one positive thing that really struck you about the story and why. It is as important for a writer to know what works as it is to know what doesn’t.

3) If you insult someone, they’re likely to get offended. One way to minimize the chance of insulting people is to be polite. This means no snarky comments, no matter how funny, no sweeties or honeys, no little girls. It also means no jumping in on behalf of a friend. Try to say what needs to be corrected as non-condescendingly as possible.

4) Try to imagine how you would feel if you got excited to see a review alert in your email and got this review on a story you were proud of. Yes, anything negative hurts, so to a certain extent you can’t avoid that when offering concrit, but putting yourself in their shoes may help you phrase things in a more palatable way. I would also say if there’s anything in their profile, summary or author’s notes that indicates a lack of ability to handle concrit, you might want to ask yourself why you’re insisting on offering it.

5) When it comes to characterization, remember that you aren’t the original author, and that other people can have valid interpretations, even when those interpretations disagree with yours. If the problem is that you don’t see why the character is doing something, ask why. There might be a perfectly valid reason, and by asking rather than announcing something’s OOC, you might help the author think about how to better able to make that reason clearer in their story.

6) If your concrit is longer than the author’s chapter, it’s probably overkill.

Could this still provoke a negative reaction? This is the Internet… of course it can! But you are not responsible for other people’s actions, only your own.

(Reply to this)

dinogrrl
2008-04-29 04:05 am UTC (link)

I got about two paragraphs into the last post before I realized what it was and got tired of the very obvious bickering that would be taking place. The review that was left was a flame, not a concrit, short and simple. It was repeatedly and unnecessarily rude. Small wonder the author got defensive. I would have (although my solution would have either been to ignore or report the reviewer, depending on the severity of the rudeness in the supposed 'concrit').

I would most certainly call the comments you received to your post helpful suggestions on how to write a better concrit. They basically boil down to this: don't be belligerent. Doesn't matter the age of the author, if you treat them with respect, you're more likely to get respect in return. Don't get mad that people aren't agreeing with you. Wait...irony. That's kinda what the author was doing to you, wasn't it?
There of course will always be those people who take any form of criticism as an insult, and those are better left alone.

So that's the advice I give you. Be patient, forgiving, and respect the author, no matter how many perceived wrongs they have committed. If they don't give you respect in return, don't continue harping on them, because that will get you nowhere. If you can't do this, then honestly you shouldn't be concritting.

(Reply to this)

deutschtard
2008-04-29 04:09 am UTC (link)

well, I left a comment on hers, here... this is what I personally would do. cater to the fact that she thinks she's god's gift to writing(or just can't handle any concrit, even if it's worded nicely), and be "gentle" to her. this is what I wrote:

hon, your story has potential, but as many people have said, it needs work. I don't doubt that you've put your chapters each through a spellcheck, but sometimes the words won't get picked up as spelled wrong because . . . they aren't. They're spelled correctly, but they're used in the wrong place. like "were" in place of "where". Were is spelled exactly right, it's just used where the word WHERE should be. I really like the Maximum Ride fandom, and if you'd like any help on getting your stories cheked over for spelling and grammatical inconsistencies, and any errors that there might be, please send me a PM or an E-mail, and i'd be happy to help check over them all. I know when I was 12, my writing wasn't what it is now, but it wasn't bad, and all these people who have come to tell you that your story "needs help" in not-so-nice ways, were, at least on the most part, trying to help you. They want you to become a better writer(not that your stuff sucks now, it doesn't for where you are in your life), and they want to show you that you can improve your stories greatly by just putting a little more time and effort into making sure they're as good as they can be. so if you'd like a little help, there are loads and loads of people who want to help you, including that MROS person. They just . . . happened to write it in a way that sounded rude.

Like I said, if you want some help, I, and others, are willing to help you. just send a PM or an E-mail.

it's all a matter of showing her respect, EVEN THOUGH she cussed you out, and this MROS person, when you gave your concrit, and she doesn't technically deserve respect because she disrespected you. Though. I can see how your review/concrit/wtfever can be taken as offensive because it was worded rather harshly, especially the second one. anger only begets more anger, but if you treat her with respect, whether she deserves it or not, hopefully she may possibly be mature enough to respond at least... less rudely. I hope i don't get screamed at for my review. if i do, i've lost all hope for this child. she's got entitlement issues and she honestly...needs to learn to grow up, 12 or not...

(Reply to this)

bredalot
2008-04-29 04:10 am UTC (link)

Someone in the other post (I think) said, "You can't expect a more polite response than what you gave" (or something along those lines). This is a very important thing to keep in mind, next to "You're talking to a real live person." If you're snarky and rude, you can't expect the reply to be humble and polite and all "thank you for your kind advice" (mine probably would be, it's true, but that's because I'm so nonconfrontational that it hurts). If you say "this is good, and I liked this, but you could've done this part better; here's how, and good luck!", then you may get a grateful response in the same tone. You may still get a nasty violent reaction, and in that case you are fully justified in being upset. Come over to

fanficrants and tell us all about it, and we'll be sympathetic. But if you don't make every effort to be polite to the perfect stranger whose hard work you're commenting on, we will only side with their nasty replies.

(Reply to this)

	10littlebullets 2008-04-29 04:12 am UTC (link)
	So let me summarize: Waugh, fanficrants is being MEAN about pointing out what I did wrong! Why are you giving me such nasty feedback on the snarky, condescending review I bragged about leaving? Why don't you just tell me nicely what I can do better instead of leaving snarky, condescending comments to my post? Paging dot_irony_oops. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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mhari, 2008-04-29 07:53 pm UTC

(no subject) -

trudirose, 2008-04-30 02:16 pm UTC

mickeylover303
2008-04-29 04:15 am UTC (link)

Well, I think the problem may lie in the fact that you seem to be a pretty crass person. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but as

lookninjas pointed out:

Bluntness is wonderful among friends or your beta. But when you're leaving a review, you're generally doing it for a stranger

However, I can be pretty crass and dry myself, and it's hard to tone down something like that when you're frustrated about something that bothers you. But I always keep in mind with whom I'm communicating, regardless of their age, experience, and whatnot. The Golden Rule.

The first thing you can do is look at how you approach the concept of concrit, in which you basically state it's what writers are given to "get better at what they do". Alongside the detriments associated with being a "concritter", your stance reminds me of White Man's Burden. But

minni already brought to light that a writer becomes better by writing more, with which I'm sure you fully agree.

As far as actually reviewing, I think, again,

lookninjas summed it up nicely. So, I have nothing further to add.

But if these kinds of mistakes honestly bother you that much, to the point where you feel you would take it out on the author, simply don't read any further and move onto something else.

Spare yourself the time and energy.

(Reply to this)

	west_side 2008-04-29 05:04 am UTC (link)
	WoW! You've managed to make my otherwise shitty day twice. Personally, I don't mind being flamed. Honest flame represents unedited reactions that I find useful. I haven't had a revenge flame for a long while, but think I can filter them just as well. (Reply to this)

	urplesquirrel 2008-04-29 05:18 am UTC (link)
	In before modtags? Edited at 2008-04-29 05:21 am UTC (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) -

twistedsheets10, 2008-04-29 05:44 am UTC

empressfunk
2008-04-29 06:17 am UTC (link)

Fair enough. Allow me to copy/paste from my Genre Fiction class (because goodness knows I'm still new at giving good critique):

"Some Basics of Criticism:

Criticism is essentially made of two parts: what you like about a story and what you didn't like.

The point where criticism becomes constructive criticism is when you articulate the reason why you like, or didn't like something. The general rule is always give two parts. Say one thing you liked about the story and one thing you thought needed work."

A lack of insults probably helps, too.

(Reply to this)

amy_wolf
2008-04-29 07:04 am UTC (link)

Here's some advice that helps for everyone I've run into:

1) Make sure the only negative stuff you include is concrete and specific to the story. Leave out the insults and snark. While some people still do blow up at "There's a lot of misspellings in this fic", it's more justified, less vicious, and less likely to look like you're picking a fight. Plus, getting personal because you think someone's story is crap makes you come off as a jackass.

So drop all of the "You suck, die in a fire, you're a horrible writer, you're so immature, etc." stuff. Stick with specific stuff about the story.

2) For certain kinds of stuff, suggestions for improvements really helps. Like talking to them about how to get a beta, or mentioning the benefits and limitations of spellchecking. This doesn't work well for and kind of problem (you need to tread carefully in making suggestions about plot and characterization, for instance), and, as the original review showed, it doesn't help much if you come off as insulting in the rest of the review. But it tends to take the impact off the negatives, and staves off a lot of temper tantrums

Things that work well for most people:

1) A decent dose of positives. If you can scratch up any accurate positive statement to make about the fic (even if it's only an improvement when compared to their previous stuff), most people are willing to listen to the critiques more. Not everyone; personally, I dislike this approach, because it feels like they think I need placating, and that gets my back up. But most writers prefer that, and if you don't know them, you've got better odds of a good response with a few positives to soften the negatives. And I don't know anyone who blows up, flips out, or refuses to listen because they dislike positives thrown in to soften things.

2) More "I think" language. A lot of people get set off when statements of opinions aren't specifically labeled as such. I'm not entirely clear why, but it's a common thing. It doesn't apply to everyone; once again, I'm the other way around. But the odds do favor it.

(Reply to this)

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