Sapphy ([info]sapphira_angel) wrote in [info]fandomcliche,
@ 2003-12-20 14:22:00
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Current mood: predatory

...Mn.
Have been wanting to say this for a while, but kept getting distracted (or lazy =P)


X is my One True Love. Always and forevermore.

Pairings tend to get wacky in every CLAMP series, but X really takes the cake since it boasts such an enormous (and well-developed) cast. It's quite often turned into a mix-and-match thing.

I don't mind odd-pairings, so long as they can be written in a believable manner. I myself am a *strong* supporter of Subaru/Kamui, which is (arguably) not canon.

But...then you get things like Kamui/Yuzuriha. Excuse me, but WTF. Kamui warms up to the girl, sure, but he has no deep bond with her. Kamui is the type that *needs* such a bond to form any relationship with people. Maybe if it developed over *years*, but let's face it, they don't have that much time. I've seen this pairing done right once, in a fic titled Free Cell, by Isachan. And yes, it *did* take years.

Kamui loved two people - Fuuma and Kotori. He loved them equally, and romance never figured into it. It was love, pure, plain, and simple. He did not "choose" Kotori over Fuuma. All three of them made a promise, if you recall. Kamui seemed more protective over Kotori because of her condition, and he and Fuuma both wanted to keep her safe. It's not that Kamui never extended the feeling to Fuuma. The reason he kept his distance after his return was to protect *both of them*.

o.< And Kamui's sexuality is a moot point. He is not Teh Ghey. Overly-feminine sometimes, but that doesn't mean he's screamingly homosexual. If you *had* to classify him, it would be definitely be bi. But I don't think he even puts himself into any category. Gender never mattered when he loved someone. It just doesn't faze him. He might blush if Sorata gets a little hands-on friendly, but that's more of a reaction linked to the invasion of his personal space and the stunning revelation that someone cares about him. Kamui knows he's not the most likable person ever. Remember, Fuuma was the first person other than his mother to show concern.

By the way, I'd rant about Fuuma as well, but that's definitely [info]emudii's shtick ^.~ I'll leave it at, "rapist!Fuuma is not cool."

Oh, but I'll also mention that while Fuuma and Seishirou are certainly lacking enough morals to have a friendly screw, they're both not going to be making declarations of love to each other anytime this century. Or...ever.

Seishirou is something else entirely. Far, far too often we see him having an inner Nice Guy, because he had a horrible childhood. Now...where did we ever see Seishirou having a traumatic past? The only glimpse of his background is in the X16 side story, with the death of his mother. He doesn't seem terribly saddened by this event. He's not moved by it. He doesn't care oh-so much.

Now. What makes people think he'd get all worked up if he did kill Subaru? "Oh, but he LOVES Subaru!" Well guess what, he 'loved' Setsuka, too! She was very beautiful, and Seishirou is fond of beautiful things. That's why Subaru caught his interest, plus the kid was amazingly innocent. Fun to mess with, ya know? And for Seishirou, the amusement he got out of it was all that mattered.

Maybe Seishirou did feel something for Subaru that could have been real love. Would it ever have worked out? No. Not only because of Hokuto's death and all relating trauma, but also because of the way Seishirou is. He's just not a sweet person. He wouldn't recognize what he feels is love if it bit him in the ass.

"But when he died, he said--!"

'I love you'? It's very likely he said that. It's not certain, or CLAMP would have made it so. And do you really think the meaning of those words are the way the fangirls want to interpret them?

Seishirou/Subaru is fun. It's twisted, it's sexy, it's everything *but* healthy. And because it was tragic is half the appeal.

If Sei-chan is resurrected one more time in fanfic I *will* die.

Subaru loved Seishirou, as we all know. Subaru is fucked up, we also know. Subaru is CLAMP's angstbunny, their punching bag, their 'let's see what happens if we push THIS' button. But Subaru is not doomed entirely, or he might as well be dead by now. He's still connected to Seishirou, via eye transaction, but he's not hopeless.

You people have eyes. You can see how he opened up to Kamui.

*the inner S/K fangirl points and laughs triumphantly* </fangirlism>

Let me put it this way. S/S = trauma, death, more trauma. S/K = fluff, happiness (gasp), trust

S/K can heal. God knows they both need it. It's the healthier of the two choices. If you prefer the insane amount of tragedy and angst of S/S, go right on ahead. But it ended. Yes, you must live with it. But let's face it, Subaru really wouldn't have a chance to move on if things hadn't ended with Seishirou. With that closure, he has hope. He's still bound (that's a hole he dug himself in) but at the same time, he's free. All sorts of fun stuff for us S/K fans to explore.

Though S/K gets it own crap o.- It's not instant, and it's not magic. I don't think either of them will be ready to say "I love you" for a good long time.

One last thing before I end my rant that ownz all other rants. Subaru angsts, but he does not indulge in great fits of crying. Between the end of TB and the start of X, I think he forgot how to cry. He did cry when Seishirou died, but you'll notice that the tears didn't stream. Don't go mixing Subby up with Kamui, the latter of which is a teenager, and thus allowed to have emotional freak-outs.

Now I gotta stop before my head explodes >.>




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[info]iczer6
2003-12-21 12:30 am UTC (link)
'I love you'? It's very likely he said that. It's not certain, or CLAMP would have made it so. And do you really think the meaning of those words are the way the fangirls want to interpret them?

Another SxK fangirl here, just wanting to cheer you on.

Actually AFAIK it's never made clear what Seishirou said to Subaru, sure it could've been a confession but that seems a bit too easy for CLAMP IMO.

[If Sei-chan is resurrected one more time in fanfic I *will* die.]

It's not even the resurrection as much as it's the resurrection with the Sparkling New Personality, yes now he's a nice guy who's kind to children and the elderly.


Icz

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[info]ihrketayhl
2003-12-21 07:38 am UTC (link)
You just hit upon almost all of the reasons I stay OUT of the X fandom, even though I adore the TV series and manga (the "movie" doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist).

I do enjoy my Subaru/Seishirou, and I'd love to see them get a happy ending...but outside of certain VERY well-written humor fics (anyone read Leareth's Angelic Intervention?) it ain't bloody likely. And I refuse to touch the Seishirou-resurrection thing. That's just...wrong. Give me an AU where he never dies, but resurrection isn't one of the concepts tossed around in X and I'd rather not see it pop up in fanfic. Cheap and stupid. >_<

So, anyway, nice rant. ...Why is it that all the CLAMP fandoms get hit with the bastardized characters? You'd think idiots fans would actually read the series and GET THE FREAKIN' POINT after awhile...

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[info]shoiryu
2003-12-21 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Give me an AU where he never dies

[info]anandaverse. For all your Seal!Seishirou needs.

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[info]emudii
2003-12-21 08:27 am UTC (link)
I'm flattered to be mentioned by name. I really should get around to ranting, but you know how it is. I suck. And there's way too much I want to bitch about. Maybe I should make a shrine to X fandom bitching already. XD

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[info]littledust
2003-12-21 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I don't see how Subaru and Kamui would be able to attain any semblance of happiness, considering that Subaru's willing to join the Dragons of Earth in order to fulfill a final Wish of Seishirou's. Even with all the caring and concern Subaru's shown Kamui throughout the manga, canonically, it's very clear that Seishirou will always be more important.

I'm tired of seeing the "magically OK S/K!" cliche, too. The difference is that I don't think they'd ever achieve any sort of healing or happiness. They have too many problems between them. ;P

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[info]tanuki_dono
2005-03-10 04:07 pm UTC (link)
(claps) Bravo, dear! Kamui cares about everyone since he made his choice anwyay. He is THE Dragon of Heaven. Maybe being overly-sentimental to everything that walks is a side-effect. I don't think S/K is there...I just don't see it. It's there's about like Kamui/Keiichi or Kamui/Saiki or ...

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Wow. That's some crap.
[info]ariseishirou
2003-12-21 08:01 pm UTC (link)
Let me start by saying this: I don't mind S/K. Done well, it can be an entertaining read- a note of hope as a counterpoint to the two ill-fated lovers. As long as S/S is treated as canon, which it is, and S/K as the fiction the author intends to indulge (ie, not a Seishirou...who? fanfic) they can even border on the reality as it exists in the manga.

Quite frankly, however, a lot of this is pure, utterly unfounded opinion which you don't back up with any examples from the story whatsoever. Firstly:

"o.< And Kamui's sexuality is a moot point. He is not Teh Ghey. Overly-feminine sometimes, but that doesn't mean he's screamingly homosexual. If you *had* to classify him, it would be definitely be bi."

No. If you had to classify him, it would definitely be bi. Given that Kamui doesn't engage in any sexual situations with anyone besides Fuuma- and then unwillingly- the rest of us can be of the opinion that Kamui is any sexuality we want. Was he protecting Fuuma as a brother, and his love was Kotori, or was he protecting Kotori as a sister, and Fuuma was his interest? It's never made clear in the manga. Kamui does not go around kissing girls- but he doesn't do anything remotely sexual with Subaru, either. Some see Kamui as heterosexual, some see him as gay. He is not 'definitely bi'. Nor does his behaviour classify him as such- I would make the argument that Fuuma is homosexual, yet his behaviour is very masculine. Regardless of how femininely Kamui behaves- which you also fail to back up with proof, and there's ample instances of Kamui behaving in a very masculine manner, such as his aggressive attitude throughout the first several manga and eagerness to fight- it does not classify him as gay, straight, or bi.

Here is how you make an argument to assert your position on a character's sexuality: I believe Seishirou is bisexual. In canon, we see him in both sexual situations with a man (fondling Subaru in TB) and a woman (kissing- very unchastely- his mother on the lips). Not 'Seishirou is really manly, but even so if you had to classify him, it would definitely be bi!'.

"Seishirou is something else entirely. Far, far too often we see him having an inner Nice Guy, because he had a horrible childhood. Now...where did we ever see Seishirou having a traumatic past?"

Well, for starters we know that he's watched his mother kill another human being. Likely many times. If that isn't traumatic to you, then what is, really? Would you consider it normal for your mother to come home with fresh blood on her hands, talking about the person she's just killed, and how someday you would have to kill her? I certainly wouldn't. Because we see Seishirou kill his own mother without remorse, we can wonder about what events have led him to be this unfeeling. And from the looks of things in the story, it is likely because he was raised that way.

"And for Seishirou, the amusement he got out of it was all that mattered."

Again, a sweeping and unfounded statement. How do you know? Where does he say this, exactly? He made a bet with Subaru, and we can only guess at the reasons. Given that we now know that his mother told him that the person to kill him would be the one he loved, the facts don't lend themselves to Seishirou making a bet that he would fall in love with someone as a trivial matter.

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Re: Wow. That's some crap. Part 2.
[info]ariseishirou
2003-12-21 08:02 pm UTC (link)
"Would it ever have worked out? No. Not only because of Hokuto's death and all relating trauma, but also because of the way Seishirou is. He's just not a sweet person. He wouldn't recognize what he feels is love if it bit him in the ass."

I see. Only sweet people can hold relationships, then. Sure thing. Many serial killers and rapists have held long-term relationships- some were even married. Jerks and assholes and people who are terribly cruel often fall in love. Or did you miss Hokuto's very important line before her death: 'There is no such thing as a person that shouldn't love anyone.'? And yes, it was probably very difficult for him to recognize that he was in love, but in-canon he DID, before the end. Even if you don't believe those were the last words he uttered (in which case I'd love to chat about Japanese grammar with you), we have Setsuka's prophecy as evidence.

"But Subaru is not doomed entirely, or he might as well be dead by now. He's still connected to Seishirou, via eye transaction, but he's not hopeless."

Ah, so taking on the role of the Sakurazukamori, this utterly kind and gentle person decides to kill to fufill the last Wish of the man he loved and now waits to die is not 'hopeless'? Seishirou did not set him free through his death- he bound him to him forever. Now Seishirou will have been the first person Subaru killed, the one he cannot forget, the one who is 'special'. I didn't see him jumping Kamui for comfort following Seishirou's death- I saw him kiss the marks Seishirou left on him, and leave Kamui to find the place Seishirou was born.

"You people have eyes. You can see how he opened up to Kamui.

*the inner S/K fangirl points and laughs triumphantly*"

What scenes are you referring to, exactly? Where Subaru worked to save him because Subaru can bear to see another person hurt? Where it was revealed that Subaru can tie a tie with one eye blind, even though he doesn't wear them himself? (Hrm... now where did he learn that, I wonder? Perhaps the man that does? Looks like more S/S evidence to me.)

Or perhaps I should respond: you have eyes yourself, you can see Subaru admitting that Seishirou is his special person (in Kamui's mind), that he wants and thinks of him only (in his sidestory), that he wanted to die just to mean something to Seishirou (Rainbow Bridge), that Seishirou was destined to die at the hands of the one he loved most (his sidestory), that the last thing he said was something Subaru did not expect- and Subaru thought Seishirou felt nothing (also Rainbow Bridge), that his wish was to erase the damage caused to Subaru by another man (Fuuma's scene with Subaru), along with Subaru's constant pining and the countless examples of tension-filled caresses shared between the two.

*inner S/S fangirl points and sighs*

Let me put it this way. S/S=canon. S/K=not. Arguing that S/K is 'better' than S/S is like arguing that S/K is 'better' than Sorashi. One of these relationships actually exists, for good or for ill (S/S was still a relationship and a romance, albeit a tragic one), and the other does not.

"S/K can heal. God knows they both need it. It's the healthier of the two choices."

Really? Prove it. Where does this happen in the manga? Who's to say those two wouldn't just wallow in their collective grief and drag each other down? Subaru seems apt to do that, himself. None of his actions after Seishirou's death (kissing the marks, mourning their loss, accepting the role of a murderer to fufill his Wish) indicate that it has set him free or helped him get over the man in the slightest. What I think you mean to say is that they could heal, in your opinion. S/K is not the magical resolution to all of Subaru's pain- nowhere in the manga does it even remotely hint at that. In my opinion, those two would only hurt each other, and Subaru's actions are my evidence. If you provided some for yours, we could even debate the issue. But you haven't- which makes the larger portion of your whole rant about the fandom pretty well meaningless.

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Re: Wow. That's some crap.
[info]tanuki_dono
2005-03-10 04:12 pm UTC (link)
You're my hero. Awesome points. Glad someone did that. I saw many many things worng with the S/K argument too. It all seemed like bloated opinions to me. If anything, the tie-tying part in X may have hinted that he views Kamui like a sibling. After all, Hokuto-chan was often doing things of that nature for him. (I forget which TB volume it was exactly--volume 4?) Anyway, just wanted to say that YOU are so AWESOME!!! (is an avid S/Ser) There's just so much out there for S/S! Tokyo Babylon manga, Tokyko Babylon ovas, TB character songs, s/s ballad "Yuuzai", x character files, X manga, Tokyo Babylon 1999 live-action movie, Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle.... (falls over exhausted).

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Hmm...
[info]kaitou_marina
2003-12-21 10:41 pm UTC (link)
The best and most realistic S/K fic I ever read was about how being together destroys both of them further.

And besides, at this point, it would be most humane to just let Subaru die. If only CLAMP loved him enough to let him go. Unfortunately, they don't

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[info]sapphira_angel
2003-12-21 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Okay, so it's all pretty much a matter of opinion. Granted, I was 3/4 dead when typing all that, and I shouldn't have been so vague.

*hath been kicked in the ass yet again by the respective Neechans* XD; This is me shutting up now and crawling back into the shadows to lurk. Ignore.

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[info]memlu
2004-01-03 02:26 pm UTC (link)
Coherent, angry, valid, and well-done! Hoorah!

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[info]apapazukamori
2004-01-07 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Gotta wonder though, in your carefully detailed "reasoning" in support of S/K... what about FUUMA? It makes me so irritated when S/K fangirls talk about how possible the pairing is because SUBARU would be able to move on from Seishirou, love someone new, blah blah blah. I know this might be a shock to you, but Kamui might not be willing to jump into Subaru's arms after the eye incident, or even before.

But since the characters from Tokyo Babylon seem to be the only characters who matter, we'll just ignore that CLAMP has developed a relationship and connection between Kamui and Fuuma. You would have a very, very hard time convincing me that Kamui would choose Subaru over Fuuma.

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(giggles)
[info]tanuki_dono
2005-03-10 04:15 pm UTC (link)
(presses start on the X movie, which shows Kamui cuddling Fumma's head) "Forever Love...Forever Love...Stay with Me...Forever Love..."

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