dancing to the music only in his head ([info]clutter) wrote in [info]ew_suggestions,
@ 2004-08-11 00:22:00
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My two cents
Uh, hi y'all. I just joined, and I have these two suggestions that have been swimming around in my head, so here they are.

1. I would like to be able to view the full image while commenting rather than the thumbnail. It's a little frustrating to try to absorb every detail of the image before I click the comment button so that I can be sure not to miss something in my comment.

I think it would make it easier for people to type more productive and constructive comments when they can view the entire image that they're commenting on.

2. Get rid of the language filters. I get the feeling this suggestion won't be very popular, but the language filters just seem like a waste of effort. They're way too easy to get around. Somebody can type "this fuking sux @$$" and the filter will let it pass. Besides, most flamers can't type anyways.

And if the filters aren't taken away, could there at least be some information about what words will not be allowed, seeing as words like "suck", which isn't necessarily a negative word, can get you in trouble.

It just seems to me that if you're so sensitive that you can't handle a comment like "this is crap you suck lol" then maybe you shouldn't be posting your work on the world wide web.

***

I guess it seems pretty ungrateful to be given a free service like Elfwood and still have something to complain about. Infinite thanks to Thomas and all the Elfwood pantheon for your patience.

-Clutter

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-10 10:35 pm UTC (link)
I semi-agree about the language filter. While I do understand the usefulness of it (and I do think it's important that a community like Elfwood should make every attempt to keep interaction respectful), I think it really just gets in the way more than it helps, most of the time. As you mentioned, it's very easy to get around, so anyone intent on using "banned" language can easily find a way to do so; on the other hand, when someone is trying to use a banned word in a bonafide connotation (words like "suck," "fag"/"faggot," "cock," etc. DO have other meanings besides the offensive ones and are often the best--or the only--words to use in a given sentence), they pay the price for it.

I've run into this many times with other filters, in fact, when trying to type my own *name*. My last name is Pitcock, and with many filters (I've never tried typing my name directly into a comment, so I don't know if Elfwood's filters would do this), it catches the "cock" part and either edits it (mangling my name as "Pit****" or truncating it to "Pit," which isn't my last name at all) or reprimands me as a user and flags my account--for typing my own name! So, as I said, while I do believe there is a reason to put measures in place to keep interaction on Elgtatively impacting innocent people, while the actual disrespectful and offensive flamers find other ways to get accross the foul language they want to use.

--Jennifer

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[info]allcuishpa
2004-08-11 01:27 am UTC (link)
I think perhaps the language filter should be relaxed a bit. The "big three" and a few other words should still be censored because there's simply no legitimate use for them.

It's kind of annoying when you leave a comment like, "Man, I know what you mean about trying to learn watercolor. Always having to keep up with how wet the paper is in each area can suck, because you'll go to lay down some color and it'll just get sucked right into the adjacent area!", only to get your ass banned from commenting for 24 hours because you weren't even thinking of telling someone their work "sucks".

It might also be handy to have a complete list of the words that are banned somewhere, because it sucks to find out through trial and error.

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[info]dreamnestia
2004-08-11 06:26 am UTC (link)
I don't think the filter makes a difference between a word and a part of a word, though. If I was looking at fanart from Princess Mononoke and uttered the name of the main character, I'd still get sacked - A-shit-aka, there's your legitimate use. :) It would be a *much* smaller problem, though, than the great number of words the filter now takes offense to.

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[info]iaenni
2004-08-11 01:04 am UTC (link)
1. Really good idea! I usually open a new browser to look at it while commenting. It would be really nice if that wasn't necesarry

2. At least if there IS a filter, tho you can go around in very easily, Elfwood shows that actually some words aren't allowed. But I dunno, I never swear anyway ^-^

"It just seems to me that if you're so sensitive that you can't handle a comment like "this is crap you suck lol" then maybe you shouldn't be posting your work on the world wide web."
That's not a fair thing to say. "this is crap you suck" shouldn't be anywhere on Elfwood!
People that aren't great usually put work on Elfwood so they can find out what is wrong and how to improve. Nobody should get a comment like "u suck, this is crap". I wouldn't like it, would you? I learned to not take those comments to heart, they're usually written by 12 year old idiots with too much spare time.
There's a difference between "u suck" and "this looks off, maybe try and do it this way...And work on this a bit..."
I prefer the last cuz it's most helpful

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[info]clutter
2004-08-11 01:17 am UTC (link)
"I learned to not take those comments to heart, they're usually written by 12 year old idiots with too much spare time."

That's my point exactly. If somebody is really going to take comments like that to heart, I don't think they should be posting their pictures on the internet. You're always going to get flamers and just-plain-stupid comments. It's just a fact of life that there are immature people out there who want nothing more than to insult you. If somebody doesn't understand that, and they're really going to be crushed by a lame comment, then maybe they're just not ready for a public gallery yet.

-Clutter

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[info]iaenni
2004-08-11 01:19 am UTC (link)
and I said I learned
If you're really bad like I was when I started (keep in mind: me not great now either ^-^) then you have to LEARN not to take those comments to heart.
13 year olds can join and if they're not good and still new yes they might take it to heart.

But still: nobody should get that comment anyway

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-11 01:33 am UTC (link)
Well, the thing is, the language filter doesn't prevent people from leaving useless, insulting criticim, it just limits the words they can use to do it with or forces them to invent new spellings of those words. No filter will ever be able to prevent 12 year old idiots from posting useless comments like "this is crap, u suck!" whether it's phrased exactly that way, or slightly differently.

In the meantime, however, the filter does tend to get in the way of honest commentors simply trying to use banned words in bonafide contexts, like making a comment about the construction of a technological gizmo in a Sci Fi painting and saying, "The way you've got that configured, it looks like it would suck a lot of power--maybe if you tried it this way, it'd seem more realistic," or something similar. "Suck," in general, is a pretty innocuous and multi-purpose word. "Fag" is another word for cigarette in Britain, and "faggot" can actually refer to a bundle of sticks made for burning. Obviously, an "ass" can be a donkey or beast of burden, and "Hell" can obviously refer to the place of eternal torment in Judeo-Christian belief, or it can refer to a generic place of similar torturous afterlife (don't know if this one is banned by the filters or not, though). "Damn" can refer to being condemned to the previously mentioned place, or a general state of condemnation (vampires, in fact, are commonly referred to as "the damned") "Cock" can refer to a rooster or similar male fowl, as well as to refer to someone being "cocky" or to described something being at an angle--like a hat "cocked" to one side. Not to mention its use in my own last name. ;-) So there are plenty of words that are banned that have other meanings that innocent and good-intentioned commentors might use, and all the fliter does in those cases is get in the way of good, efficient communication and reprimand people who were doing nothing wrong. And all the while, the true idiots and flamers continue to post their useless, empty, insulting comments either with different phrasing or with alternate spellings the filter doesn't recognize. It solves nothing, insofar as useless "this is crap" comments are concerned.

I do agree that some words which have no other use should be banned, like the f-word and the s-word which refers to excrement. Those words, to my knowledge, have no bonafide, non-crass uses. But beyond that, words like "suck," "cock," "damn," and the like should not be banned, as banning them doesn't prevent flamers intent on using them or being insulting anyway, and instead, such bans only get in the way of well-meaning commentors simply trying to communicate their honest point.

--Jennifer

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i so totally agree
[info]mesana
2004-08-11 02:47 am UTC (link)
with the first point at least. i often find myself struggling to remember all the details that a certain picture struck me with when commenting. it would be wonderful.

as to the second, i can see your point on maybe adapting the filter, because if someone writes "you're a fu@#ing @sshole" it's still offensive because the human mind is quite capable of filling in the blanks to get the real word.

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[info]curvature
2004-08-11 03:19 am UTC (link)
The problem with publishing a list of the banned words anywhere, is that it almost encourages people to find ways around them.
The filter contains more than the full spellings of words, it also contains some of the substitutions that get used.

If you know that the word 'suck' isn't allowed, find a different way to express your opinion.

I don't think the filter is going to be lifted any time soon, and if you could see the amount of garbage it actually does filter out you might be surprised at how effective it is.

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-11 03:50 am UTC (link)
It shouldn't ban someone from posting after violating the filter, in that case. If no list will be published, and the filter stays in place as-is (filtering a great many words used in non-crass contexts), it's *far* too easy for an innocent commentor to be banned and reprimanded for posting nothing at all that they shouldn't have. In fact, it might even happen to me if I tried to post my own *name* in a comment, since my last name is Pitcock. Innocent commentors shouldn't be banned and punished for simply trying to make an honest comment, particularly if no list of "no-no" words is available to check with (and particularly since memories of previous banned words aren't always perfect, assuming one has ever had the misfortune of being erroneously reprimended for using them in the past).

--Jennifer

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[info]origamifrog
2004-08-11 03:34 pm UTC (link)
While I agree that publishing a list would encourage some people to get around those words... it would also tell innocent commenters what words to avoided. It seems a bit silly to tell people that some "bad" words will get them in trouble, but nobody knows what those words are unless they learn through trial and error. I also don't know if anything bad will happen if I use some of those words as part of another word... eg. as someone else pointed out, it would be silly if the filter nailed someone for saying "Ashitaka" or a bit of Japanese which contained "shita".

Oh, and incidentally, for those that think the filters work wonderfully... here's a flame that managed to sneak by the existing filters and into my gallery. It was writen by a lovely young troll by the name of "ur a penis face":
"look i don't want seem harsh but why did u upload this piece of crap, just look at.....just...errr. Its just scummy and filthy and shouldn't be shown to children. It looks like you've done it while fisting an old man."

Personally, I think that if the filters do nothing to prevent something like that and yet punish other people for using words innocently, there's something wrong with the system ;)

- Hannah

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[info]curvature
2004-08-11 03:41 pm UTC (link)
The other poster didn't actually say that it was Elfwood that stopped her from typing her own name.
I did Support emails at Elfwood for well over a year and never once got one complaining that they had typed in an innocent word but had it banned because it contained a combination of letters inside it that the filter found objectional.
That's conjecture and nobody so far has come forward to say that this has happened to them on ELFWOOD.
The word penis is not in the filter because people use it legitimately - particularly when commenting on nudes.

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-11 08:43 pm UTC (link)
No, I haven't had problems with Elfwood's filter regarding my last name, but that's probably only because I've never yet had cause to post my name in a comment; were I to, I *would* be banned, because the filter flags the word "cock" and doesn't ditinguish between banned words by themselves and banned words as part of other words. The only reason I haven't yet had this problem with Elfwood in particular is because I haven't typed my name into a comment. Were there ever to come a time in which I did (forgetting the filter, as I *always* do because it doesn't apply to me--I don't swear and I don't flame or insult), I'd be banned for nothing so much as typing my own name.

And yes, I *have* had problems with Elfwood's filters with other words. I've been banned from posting twice. Once, I used the word "suck" (to say something like, "It sucks that such-and-such artist hasn't come out with anything new recently"), and the other time I don't even know *what* the problem was. I have no idea what word in my comment that time tripped the filter, but whatever it was, it was something I wasn't even remotely using in an inappropriate context, nor had even *considered* in that context, so much so that I didn't have a clue what I might have typed, when I thought back on it, that might have tripped it. I just never gave it a second thought till it banned me.

So there's twice that I personally have been banned via the filter for posting innocent comments that used the flagged words in perfectly appropriate contexts. I never e-mailed support because, to be honest, I figured I'd get the exact response you've given so far in this discussion--the filter is the way it is, it's not going to change, so get over it. And I'll bet I'm not the only one who's had that problem and didn't e-mail for similar reasons (or perhaps other reasons--maybe many people never even *thought* to e-mail support about that particular issue). Common sense would tell you that the filter, as it is, and especially with no published list of flagged words, is going to end up banning a lot of innocent people, whether you ever personally see an e-mail from one of them or not.

I know it'll never happen (because once a group, company, or organization starts doing something one way, they're going to keep doing it that way come Hell or high water until one of *them* decides maybe they should change it--but rarely to never because customers, users, or members requested or suggested a change), but the filter really does need to be rethought. Either a list of flagged words should be readily available, and/or it should be tweaked to distinguish between flagged words and words simply *containing* flagged words, as well to possibly relax some of the restrictions on more iffy words, like "suck," for instance, that have a very wide variety of uses besides inappropriate ones. But as I said, I know it'll never happen.

--Jennifer

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[info]curvature
2004-08-11 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Please don't rant at me.

I just made a comment on my own gallery, including the word 'Pitcock' in it, and guess what?

I wasn't banned

Please stop saying that the filter will ban you for using words with 'cock' included in them, clearly this is not the case.

Also, for every person like yourself who doesn't think to contact Support when they experience a problem, there are 10 who do.

The filter picks up specific words and combinations of words, it doesn't look at words character by character incase some of them might match up - otherwise we wouldn't be able to use such words as 'peacock' in comments.

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-11 09:55 pm UTC (link)
You might want to chill...I wasn't "ranting at you." And if you think a person expressing disagreement with your points equals "ranting," then I guess it's no wonder you think the filter is a good idea as-is and isn't too over-the-top. Don't be so sensitive.

As for my name in the Elfwood filter, as I said, I hadn't tried it myself before, but I do know that flagged words that are parts of other, unrelated words trigger the filter, having heard experiences of that sort related from others, so it stood to reason that it wouldn't distinguish my surname from a foul word, either. I'm happy to know this isn't the case, but that doesn't negate the fact that the filter *is* a bit over-zealous, and it's kinda silly that you seem to think that because no one has e-mailed you about it, that must mean no one has had any problems with it. As I said, common sense would tell you the filter would cause problems as it's set up (why ban people? Why not just reject comments that include a banned word and tell the commenter they tripped the filter and should comment again without using inappropriate language? It's not as if flamers aren't *already* altering their spellings to find ways around the filter to post insulting crap anyways, and at least that way it'd give some of us who're just trying to communicate honestly a chance, without reprimanding us for doing nothing wrong. Exceptionally few other places that filter postings actually ban people from posting or anything of that sort simply for tripping the filter). I also told you I've had problems twice, and I do know of several others who have as well. Yet you still seem to want to put on blinders and say, "Yeah, well, you and they don't exist unless you send me an e-mail about the problem." That's just being obtuse.

And before you thinking I'm "ranting at you" again, I'm not. I'm disagreeing. It's okay--seriously.

--Jennifer

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[info]curvature
2004-08-11 10:10 pm UTC (link)
I didn't say that no one had emailed Support about the filter - they get lots of emails about it all the time.

What I actually said, was nobody has contacted us (that I've ever seen, I can only comment on the emails that I personally processed) to say that they'd typed in a word that happened to contain a sequence of letters, like 'Pitcock' for example, and had it banned.
And so far, not one person has actually said that they were banned on *Elfwood* for doing that.

Also, I don't know why it bans people, and I never said I was fine with it - maybe you should read my initial comment?

I just think people are getting a bit worked up over it - the ban isn't permanant, it goes away after a while. Once you know you can't say 'suck', find a different way to say what you mean.

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[info]clutter
2004-08-11 10:31 pm UTC (link)
That's true that I know certain words aren't allowed, but what about the average non-Elfwood member who wants to leave a comment like "It would suck to be that guy" or "She looks like she's had a crappy day"? That's my whole problem. I feel like I'm one of the lucky ones who know not to use certain words, as opposed to the guys who have to figure it out the hard way.

And there already is a list with some of the bad words under the comment window (including "suck," which I just realized). Why wouldn't that list encourage trolls to find ways around it? I guess I can see the difference in listing every single word as opposed to listing a few examples, but it seems kind of strange that the obvious words are listed, but the ones people might not suspect are just waiting to be revealed by the unsuspecting commenter.

I feel like I'm rambling. I hope my comment is coherent enough to understand.

I guess it's pointless for me to be nit-picking in details like this. I'm not passionately anti-filter; it's just an idea I wanted to propose.

By the way, I just left a comment with the word associate in it, and I didn't get banned. So I guess the filter's more advanced than I thought it was. Lol.

-Clutter

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[info]curvature
2004-08-11 10:38 pm UTC (link)
I've seen the list (one of the 'perks' of having been on staff at the time) and it's very long and very boring.
It's got things like the main swearwords which are listed on the comment box, and then several combinations of each with substituted symbols, and some of the same words in other languages, and other words that have been used in highly offensive context previously.
It's large and chunky and hard to follow, and gets updated fairly regularly based on complaints received by people who have received offensive spam on their galleries.
Having specifically been asked not to show the list to anyone, I'm fairly sure it's not going to be made public any time soon, but it's not a decision I'm privvy to.
In fact, I'm not even staff anymore so I'll probably be quiet now :)

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[info]clutter
2004-08-11 10:42 pm UTC (link)
You've already said too much. The Secret Underground Elfwood Committee is coming to get you!

Dirty words in other languages? How fun!

-Clutter

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[info]curvature
2004-08-11 10:53 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it's been quite educational hanging out with such a multi-lingual bunch of people :)

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-11 11:16 pm UTC (link)
The only thing that's stuck in my mind from my fiance talking to me about French is the word "merde" (hope I'm spelling that right), the French foul word for excrement. I had both Spanish and German for two years and never learned a single foreign curse word, and the only one I *do* know came to me vicariously through my fiance's reminiscences of his high school French classes. Go figure. ;-)

--Jennifer

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[info]origamifrog
2004-08-11 11:58 pm UTC (link)
On the topic of the list already being long and boring and full of words that might possibly be offensive.... since the list evidently isn't going to be made any smaller, think you could possibly add "fisted" and/or "fisting" to it? :D I posted an example above of a comment using that word, and I quite honestly can't think of any non-vulgar way of employing it.

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[info]curvature
2004-08-12 03:51 am UTC (link)
It's a good idea, particularly since I can't think of any innocuous uses for either term off the top of my head :)
Unfortunately as I'm not on staff anymore, I'm not the right person to make the suggestion to - but if you use the contact form over at the Elfwood site, I'm sure one of the team will make sure it gets to Thomas :)

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[info]curvature
2004-08-12 03:53 am UTC (link)
Actually, hardly any of what makes Elfwood tick is a secret.
The information is there for people to see, and if there are any things you want to know, most of the staff are only too eager to answer questions.
Even if you just look back through these communities you can see the number of conversations where staff have gotten involved and explained exactly how things work.
Apart from not divulging the list of bad words, and not saying who's in the ERB, what secrets are you referring to exactly?

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[info]mirar
2004-08-12 12:12 am UTC (link)
If you are an artist, you can login. Then you can write whatever you want -- the language filter gets disabled if we know who you are...

What should be done is the possibility for anyone to create accounts, just for commenting, with a mailback confirmation so you're not that anonymous anymore.

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[info]clutter
2004-08-12 12:17 am UTC (link)
Wow. I didn't know about the filters being disabled when the commenter is logged in. That makes so much sense!

-Clutter

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[info]whitefantom
2004-08-12 12:37 pm UTC (link)
I didn't know about that either. It hasn't always been that way, though, because the two times I got banned were while I was logged in (but both happened a year or two ago, at least). But I had no idea that the current state of things was that the filter wasn't active if you're logged in--that makes things *much* easier to deal with. :-)

--Jennifer

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[info]mirar
2004-08-12 12:52 pm UTC (link)
Well, if it doesn't work like that now, it's a bug and I'll fix it...

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(Anonymous)
2004-08-23 07:07 pm UTC (link)
I totally agree with you on the bad langauge. Suck mean to things. I mean, I would get into trouble if I said "Is she sucking on a straw?" Many words have two meanings. I think Elfwood should take off the filter.

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