evolveastrology: 2nd house

adizzi (

adizzi) wrote in

evolveastrology,
@ 2005-09-22 07:59:00

2nd house - 8th house
can we talk about these houses from the evolutionary point of view?

the question would be about integration - looking at the two sides of the axis

if the 2nd is gathering skills and developing self worth, the 8th is ? - blanking here of it in terms of the 2nd.

thanks for any input.

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prophetessamy
2005-09-22 07:32 pm UTC (link)

I think the key is the terrain of self worth vs. worth when you are coupled with another. In the 2nd you are worrying about your own resources. Can you do it? Are you enough? What do you have to offer? What can you use out of your own tool box to make something worthwhile from your own clay? In the 8th, you share resources, like corny pop astrology teaches us, but it's more like how you become stronger and more together - like 1+1=3 sort of thing. Let's exaggerate the good of the 2nd and the bad of the 8th for a second, I had a client who had n. node in the 2nd and s. node in the 8th. the 'bad' spin I put on the 8th in order to contrast with where he needed to go into the 2nd was how he kept basing his worth on other people, who he was with them, and whether or not he was loved, what they made him become. It was a little tricky, because it wasn't just that he had a poor self esteem or something. The actual details came down to the idea that he based so much of his own self esteem on his sexual abilities and chemistry with people. So he needed another person in order to tap into that. It was like the playing field (house) was all about how the other person made him more important, but not just by their approval, also by how they responded to him. Anyway, that's a main idea, I'm sure I could think of more if I had time.

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	adizzi 2005-09-25 11:09 am UTC (link)
	thanks! (Reply to this)(Parent)

mirtas
2005-09-24 12:05 pm UTC (link)

This is my favorite house duality. They are two very interesting creatures. I'd love to comment more. But going to your comment- if the 2nd is gathering skills and developing self worth, the 8th is about sharing those skills with others and reaffirming your self worth (and material worth) by joint ventures in business and finance.

But there's more to the 2/8th duality. More than what many astrologers believe meets the eye. The 8th house is complex because of the sign that rules it- Scorpio. The second- Taurus, much like other earth signs, is easy to understand because of its practical qualities.

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prophetessamy
2005-09-26 07:38 pm UTC (link)

The most important thing to understand about these houses though, is to get out of the cupcake astrology thinking that it's all about finances - whether they are joint or not being the question. It's not about finances at all, that is only one outgrowth of the deeper root. I'm actually planning an article about this - the root vs. the branches. I don't know when I'll finish it but I should do that soon!

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mirtas
2005-09-27 06:37 am UTC (link)

True, but its a very important outgrowth/branch. Without the concept of business or finance, you won't have a "cupcake" at all! :) No, but on a serious note, I wanted emphasize that the ability to be resourceful (a second/eight house gift which manifests itself often in the most basic terms- personal nourishment) is important... and an important step in evolving through the zodiac wheel.

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	prophetessamy 2005-09-28 12:44 pm UTC (link)
	Well that's the thing, evolutionary astrology is pretty much not interested in the cupcakes. It examines what happens underneath the outgrowths. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mirtas 2005-09-28 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	please further explain (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

prophetessamy
2005-09-28 05:27 pm UTC (link)

Well I'm working on an article that is about this sort of question but I don't anticipate being done in the next day or two so let me just say that evolutionary astrology is concerned with soul development and lessons that, for lack of a better word, might be considered spiritual. It's not that you can't learn soul lessons through the incubator of finance, or that money doesn't impact your life, but that what your money situation in life is like is not the root. Evolutionary astrology is concerned with the root - money is just an object that we use to carry out our root lessons. For instance, the 2nd house being about your own personal resources isn't enough - it's about your attitude and feelings about your development of personal resources - do you feel you deserve them, do you feel you're enough, why or why not, etc.?

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mirtas
2005-09-29 12:56 pm UTC (link)

I will certainly relish reading your article mainly because I will be looking HOW you integrate practicality and spiritual aspirations. I think my concept of evolutionary astrology is much truer in the sense that I recognize the importance of the exterior world and it's far reaching effects to the internal world of the mind and spirit. Laws, the concept of business and finance, the idea of evolution itself (a highly exterior observation by Linnaeus and Darwin) and the interaction of other people TO one's own self.
I think you are trying to go to the extreme end of searching for the "root" when you are forgetting the importance of the leaves and fruit and the co-dependence of these parts that brings LIFE to the tree itself.
So, yes, I'm really looking forward to your article to how you're going to approach this synergism. Evolutionary astrology is pretty much linked to this.

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prophetessamy
2005-09-29 01:02 pm UTC (link)

I am not forgetting anything.

What I am saying is that if I were to give a reading to someone, I wouldn't be telling them, for instance, oh you have Pisces on your 2nd house cusp, so you tend to be an airhead with money.

If they had a particular issue with money, I would address what's underneath it, which is not about actual money at all but what it represents.

Branches and leaves are very useful for placing evolutionary/spiritual truths in one's chart into the practicalities of understanding real world, and that's what they are useful for, as examples, as outgrowths, of the main truth. So a reading would talk about the main truth, that was my point.

It would be great if you could check your smart ass superior tone at the door.

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mirtas
2005-10-03 07:55 pm UTC (link)

I suppose I did come as being a smartass. I should re-word this by stating that I politely disagree with you. Please know that I'm usually perfectly calm when I type most of this stuff out and that my words are almost always misconstrued. I am opinionated and I believe that's the purpose of this forum- to exchange ideas. If you wish to force-feed information to airheaded yesmen then this isn't for me. But I think I know you enough (and by reading your community profile) to say that that is not your intention... so, here's why I politely disagree with you -

I think evolutionary astrology isn't about searching for the roots. In fact, I think that the symbolism of the plant is a very bad one to begin with- especially when it comes down to the internal world of the mind and spirit vs. the external world. This is my perception of the idea-
There is no "root" because the internal and external world are bound to one another. They are like product A and criteria A that when present together yeild an outcome, yin and yang, man and woman- 2 separate, yet very co-dependent bodies. They are equal partners and equal players whose synergism brings about changes in the individual. It's not a lop-sided effort- it's combined effort. This is what I was eluding to when I said that the root cannot survive without the leaves- but I'm throwing that analogy out.
I think you set me off when you said the pretty much and the cupcake stuff. Like I said initially mentioned, the eight house is more than just the stereotypical house of sex, joint finance, and death. Like most astrology, it represent's an idea. Yet, I cannot banish centuries worth of external observations that thousands of astrologers before us linked the eight house with. I mean, the rate at which we finally connected the eight house (to think about it, just a slice of the heavens from some initial arbitrary point a to point b) to these qualities took a very, very long time. To completely ignore these external factors is a slap in the face. I know you don't disagree with this because you also allow for open discussion about this stated in your community profile. What I do disagree is with what I'm reading you're typing- that there is an internal discordance within the person that is manifesting itself in the external world. If that is the case, then there are many external factors that the natal chart cannot really portend. Like I said in the first few lines, internal and external factors are equal players. What you are searching for 'underneath' is also a combination of internal and external factors.
So, to put it concisely, I believe that internal and external factors synergistically influence the native through and through.

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	mirtas 2005-10-03 08:00 pm UTC (link)
	slight correction- reactant A and criteria A that yeild and outcome. (Reply to this)(Parent)

prophetessamy
2005-10-04 12:14 pm UTC (link)

Of COURSE external factors influence us. That is where life happens, manifests. But if you ask the 'whys' behind our behaviors, eventually you get to the bottom, the underneath, the Scorpio like "real truth" and it's always a deep and simple truth - the common fears and desires that all humans have - to be loved, fear of rejection, fear that they're not good enough, the desire to be great, those sorts of things. THAT is what evolutionary astrology seeks to uncover and understand - those deep whys. Evolutionary astrology is not concerned that you might be poor because you have Saturn in your 2nd house, or that you are idealistic in love because you have Neptune in your 7th, but about what the work is that you are to do, not the symptoms. Saturn work in the 2nd house is about learning, through discipline and hard work, to rely on yourself and finding deep joy and worth because of that ability, and perhaps the pitfalls along that journey have to do with whether or not you feel you are strong enough or good enough to be able to do that - among other things. That's the 'point'. The symptoms of learning that point that we may experience on that journey of educating ourselves vary - from being poor and blaming external factors for causing that and keeping you there, to being a great saver because you hardly spend. But money and how you handle it is not the 'point', and understanding those facts, while interesting and potentially useful, are not the whys. They will only lead to you understanding the whys, and therefore cannot help you grow on their own without digging deeper to finding the true 'because'. So I don't ignore the realities of the external factors, I just don't stop there, and much of modern 'pop' astrology still does. I'm not disagreeing with "centuries worth of external observations that thousands of astrologers before us linked the eight house with", but mankind has evolved itself and is ready for deeper work, for a deeper understanding. Back then astrologers looked to see if you were going to be in favor with the king or were going to marry well, for instance, by looking at your chart - things that were pertinent then to people's lives in a different way than they are today. Many people, not everyone, but many people are looking for more self-actualization today because many of us have the luxury to do so, for one thing. Now if you're questioning my own opinion of the value of those things - yeah, I find them trivial answers to the potential that a chart has to give insight, which is why evolutionary astrology and I get along so well.

I think we are not arguing two different sides of the same coin - I think these are different coins.
Because I think you are arguing the same sort of thing like does art imitate life or life imitate art? I think it's the chicken and the egg at this point. But when doing a reading, I do it through the paradigm of evolutionary astrology, which is concerned with the underneath, sort of like psychological astrology with a spiritual angle.

And it's cool if you want to politely disagree with me, really. But Evolutionary Astrology is a specific term created to represent the point of views shared by Steven and Jeff - I have studied with Steven, I call myself an Evolutionary Astrologer. If you have studied Evolutionary Astrology as a discipline, then then we can argue Evolutionary Astrology and what we each think it means. My understanding of what you are doing is just using your interpretation of what life and astrology is all about, and I think your point is true and a valid one - which is why I think we aren't exactly on opposing sides, but arguing different, valid points.

The 'pretty much' was used for emphasis, by the way, not an insult toward you, but I apologize if the cupcake thing hurt you.

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