Niel Selvadurai ([info]dorianezra) wrote in [info]e_speaks,
@ 2007-03-19 11:56:00
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Counterarguments.
I love the reactions I'll get to this, as if it was something along the lines of “A Few Thoughts On The Feeding Of Puppies And Kittens To Alligators”.

Men tend to grab their Johnson's in hostile terror as if I was personally coming after them with a hedge clipper this very minute. That leads me to suspect that my conclusions about The Phallo-Centric Universe are correct. Just speculating is this direction generates castration fears, which are then explained away with furious arguments about 'balance'.


excellent display of the type of logic i'm going to point out. before you even begin your treatise, you separate yourself from a majority of your audience, demonize them and then dumb all counterarguments against you to ignorant ball-clutchery. where are your reasons or examples? oh, right. you don't have any.

Heterosexual women get a rather nervous as well, as if I'm telling them that they have to Give Up All Cock Right Now and start licking pussy tomorrow! But think about it, ladies. How much of your life, your identity, your very being, revolves around The Male, the acquiring of one, the care and feeding of said, etc? How many of you even know who you would actually be if all of us guys were suddenly gone?

a repetition of the above paragraph, except for counterarguments provided by women being reduced to nothing more than an extreme desire to stick cock in themselves. way to degrade any woman who has enough of a head on her shoulders to challenge you before accepting you. for the women whos lives revolve around men, why not just be strong and self sufficient and fight any individual situation that might arise due to an ignorant man? why not drop the insecurities and acceptance issues and instead make light of the idiocy of most men? belittling a man does a great more to his character than simply making an enemy of him. why? because men these days generally throw a lot on their ego due to the same insecurities women have. the difference is that in most cases the insecurities make men aggressive and dominant while women become passive and submissive. this is not only the case ( in fact recent developments in media have popularized the passive submissive man. ) and so to generalize the whole of population in such "black and white" thinking is a little less than conceptually sound.

These reactions are all fear reactions, which then contaminate all the thoughts that fellow. If you got all wound up by just reading the title, then stop reading this whole thing and walk away for a few minutes. Calm down, take some deep breaths, try again. If you still get wound up, then just forget it. Go do something else and have a nice day.

As for the rest of you, [and those too stubborn to follow the above advise] let's look at that one word/phrase: out-breeding. Say it with me: Out Breeding. To breed out. Not to murder. Not exterminate. Not even to sterilize. To breed out, plain and simply. More females, less males, over a period of time - generations in fact - until all females and no males. This is a Process, not an Event.


condescending to your reader, excellent. unless you have many occasions in which people don't understand what out-breeding is, this is just pretentious bullcock.

There is some scientific evidence that Nature Herself is doing something along these lines already. All I am proposing here is that we look at the benefits [and I believe the necessity] of actively and consciously implementing this concept as a species. Attacking the idea without even considering its merits is, to say the least, non-scientific, and it certainly invalidates those who use 'science' in their attacks.

agreed. except where is your link to the 'scientific evidence' about this happening naturally?

First let us look at history. We have tried everything, from monarchies to republics, capitalism to socialism, democracy to dictatorship, and yet we as a species come up the same result every single time: oppression, violence, destruction, and chaos. I say if you want to change the outcome, you have to change the equation.

in fact, we have not tried everything. in every political and economic scheme we've ever had, the problem was that there was a distinction in society between exploiter and the exploited. currently, in a capitalist economy, those who sell their bodies as labour are the exploited as they don't get compensated for their production, but rather their time. the value of their time is decided arbitrarily, regardless of the efficiency of his production and how much of a positive effect it has on the overall economy. as well there are many examples of not only incidences, but whole cultures that didn't have a problem of 'oppression, violence and destruction'. unfortunately, these are the ones that didn't last long: the Paris Commune, the Cree and Cherokee ways of conducting small society, The Victoria Island Communes and so on and so forth. however, you're absolutely right about us having to change the equation.

And the equation is very simple. It can be summed up in four words: “It's A Man's World.”

the biggest logical jump you've made and unfortunately the one this entire temple is based off of. unfortunately, you make it without outlining why you think every example (because situations and societies don't deserve individual merit, of course) is exactly the same in being a problem with men, rather than the societal construct itself. what happened to seeing cultures for what they are and outlining exactly it is that causes its downfall? the aristocracy of old days were composed of more than men, and the bourgeois that took over were also composed of more than men. so explain again exactly how cock and pussy has anything to do with the beautiful and tragic evolution of society?

'But wait', you cry, 'women can be violent, too'. Yes, my Sisters are mad little monkeys much like their Brothers. And, yet, can any of you deny the truth of those four little words? If you raise children in a violent household, you tend to produce violent adults, so, of course, we will get violent women 'in a Man's World'.

there are statistics that show that a majority of child abuse (emotional and physical) is caused by women and not men (men take the prize for sexual abuse); this i know from personal experience from myself and my friends, as well. generally, this is because the women themselves were abused as children and 'pass the buck' to their children. the cycle repeats and it goes on and on and on. abuse is not a gender thing but a problem of psychological stability in parents. that is, both male and female. i don't generally divide the two, seeing as it's both parents' responsibility and one parent's failure is the other's as well. but for the case of this counterargument, i must ask, how can it be a man's world when the majority of the abuse is conducted by women?

no doubt you'll want the stats, i was looking on the internet and couldn't find it, but my female friend had to write an essay on it last semester. i will ask her for her source documents and post it as soon as i can.

Men are not Evil - though I believe Evil to be a human invention - so let us not get into hairsplitting over philosophical issues of Good and Evil. What is at work here is basic biology.

Men and Women are obviously constructed differently. Part of that fundamental difference is behavioral make up. Men and Women are 'wired' differently

The emotional default behavior of The Male is aggressive. He is The Hunter.

The emotional default behavior of The Female is passive. She is The Nurturer.

Of course, that is a broad simplification of our very complex species. Men can nurture and women can hunt and both can be quite effective in those roles. But those are respectively 'secondary' behaviors. We are talking Primary Behaviors here, where men and women go 'in the crunch'.

And that is the key, where each gender goes instinctively.


never make concrete statements about things you cannot prove if you are going to base an entire theorem or idealogy on it. this is the philosophical problem of identity, which has not yet been concretely answered. while hormones and physical appearance might be geared to be this way, eons of intellectual evolution has no doubt made our behaviours very dependant on experiences had during an individual's life. those raised traditionally will display your defined characteristics, but those raised differently won't. you must realize, however, that a great deal of how a child is raised is dependant on society at the time along with (these days) the media the child is exposed to. none of these contribute to the makeup of a person's behaviour independantly, but all of these nuances must be considered before making statements about a person's identity with such assertiveness.

'instinct' is undefinable and unobservable except in beasts, and while i won't deny that people are simply beasts with the boon of thought, that thought itself plays a considerable role. i would go as far as to say that their thought process shapes them more than their instincts do as we are raised to ignore our instincts and use intellect from a young age.

I am a male, a large, aggressive Alpha Male, what I call a True Man. I don't say that out of ego or bravado, and yet, of course, I do. That is the nature of the beast. The Swinging of The Dick is the most important ritual in the Phallo-Centric Universe. It lets us know who can kill whom without the unpleasant necessity of actually killing...up to a point.

Let me tell you a story in the language of the above ritual.

Years ago I was on the subway in New York City. I was going to see my lawyer. I was angry because a business deal had crashed out of stupidity and greed. (a movie deal, of course)

This little fucker was smoking a cigarette on the subway car. Words were exchanged and he produced a knife...which I took away. The Red Haze of Battle enveloped me and Time. Slowed. Down.

I had him pinned up against the subway car door, my naked fist smashing him in the face over and over and over again. The feeling that flowed through me was palpably erotic. I can still summon that moment with ease.

Afterward, walking through the streets of the Financial District, I felt...'expanded'. And I wanted to FUCK!! Most of the women – and the men, as well – avoided my gaze, though some of the women looked at me with clear lust. I expect I could have taken some of those women into a doorway and they would have happily let me fuck them then and there.

This is the essence of The True Man. We still run this world and if you seriously challenge that, we'll fucking kill you!


this is a laughable example of what a person's insecurity can produce. this is a pointless story that happens to a lot of men, and yet you find it fit to include it along with calling yourself a 'true man' or alpha male. ego can be overcome, not everyone who has a large schlong swings their dick around.

'But wait!' you cry, 'there sensitive, gentle men'. Yes, I've met them. Most of them are Beta and therefore slaves. Think about the Sensitive New Age Guys (SNAGs) that you know. The majority of them are passive/aggressive manipulators underneath that 'sweetness'.

There are only a few who like me, men who have been through some kind of nearly fatal process that forced us to become Spiritual and Nurturing or it would have killed us. We are rare and the exception to the rule. And not many males can survive such a passage, fewer still who do not become monsters instead.


again, wtf. how does this relate with your outbreeding idea?

True Men have by and large been the primary driving force that has built the civilization in which we live, a civilization that generates much Good, but, at this moment in history, far more Bad. We are at an Adapt or Die turning point.

All my experiences and studies and observations over four decades have led me to a single conclusion: The Male must End. The chains of reproductive necessity that have bound men and women together are on the verge of being broken by genetic science, so the time is ripe.


examples for your conclusions. please. this is going so fast i don't seem to have even grasped 'why'. what is the problem, again? you didn't outline a problem to solve apart from 'The Male must End'. you write five paragraphs of ego stroking and spend three lines not explaining why you're starting this movement. i think that's enough to show where your values lie.

'But wait!' you cry, 'can we not create a new race of men who are gentle and sensitive?' A race of SNAGs!? By Kali's Black Tongue, NO! That would produce Beta Half Men slaves, their natural aggressiveness subsumed into whining and manipulative backhanding. Not only it that repulsive, it as a half measure and half measures always avail us nothing.

A more honest and rigorous path would be to create a series of real servitor classes, genetically engineered cyborgs using Y-chromosome DNA. Harsh by our social standards, but more genuine and certainly more effective. And of course, how much that is 'harsh by our social standards' takes place every single day around the world? However, that is mere speculation and generations away in case.


wtf. a solution to a problem that you still haven't clearly outlined. and a wierd solution at that. i'm speechless.

The issue at hand is the survival of the species at more than a merely survival level.

So far, no one has presented a solution that will not be undermined by insistent masculine egotism. Think that through. Conceive of your paradigm and then place it into the world. What is the first obstacle that it encounters? Someones political, economic, and/or theological interest. Examine the fundamentals of that opposing interest. If you are really honest, you'll find threatened masculine ego, individually and collectively.


are you talking about the freedom to freely express your political, economic and theological interests and compare them to others? you're talking about bettering your own idealogies by having them examined by people of an opposing view? in other words, freedom to think is an enemy, correct? anyone who goes against you is fundamentally wrong, unless of course their a cock-clutching male or female who isn't honest. you've already made that clear even though you haven't even once said once why the male must end.

The Male must End. Conscious True Men who are secure in their own masculinity will understand this harsh necessity and steep forward to save the goodness in the civilization that we have built. Some Beta Males will be 'taken in hand' by my Sisters and learn to work their more enlightened Bothers.

Of course, most men will fight, but that is what men do. I keep telling my Sisters over and over again that there is no peaceful coexistence with men, not even upon their own terms. Yes, there are times of truce and yes, some of my Sisters have established peaceful, even loving relationships, with some of my Brothers.


i don't exactly understand how you can blame the entirety of every mishap of societal evolution on man and then create an entire movement to outbreed them, but not once explain EXACTLY how you got to that conclusion. unless you simply speak to women who are mistreated and play on their vulnerability. but i won't jump to conclusions, where are the general reasons?

But as one group with another, overall, this is not possible. Men are unable to even live in peaceful coexistence with their own Brothers, much less achieve such a state with beings that they are compelled as a group to consider inferior to them as a group.

maybe this has more to do with other issues, such as the way they were raised through their religious and economic backgrounds? oh no, of course not. it's the cock.

My Sisters, you can have the peace of the slave or the peace of the grave, but, believe me when I tell you that the vast majority of my Brothers will never, ever, allow you to have the peace of the autonomous being. The only way you will ever have that is when all of my Brothers are gone.

don't wait for men to give it to you, or create an enemy out of them and actively go against them. both of these is only confirming their strengths in society. you want to be free? BE FREE. that is the essence of freedom. and though they might spit on you or curse you or beat you, you keep your head up and keep being free. that is the essence of original feminism and that is the strength of a woman. every single female friend i have doesn't take any shit from anyone. they are strong, self-sufficient, beautiful, loving women of the fullest sense and an example to men, rather than an enemy.

what happened to these strong women?

That is the day I work toward, though I do not expect to see that happen in this lifetime, or in the next one. This will take a few generations. But I have pledged like The Sacred Tara to only reincarnate as a woman from the next life on. And I shall ask all my like-minded Brothers to do the same. This is about Re-Evolution and that is a Process, not an Event.

And so it is....


yep, so it is.



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[info]nebris
2007-03-20 02:41 am UTC (link)
Goddess Bless, you're a tiresome fellow. I thought you were going to write some sort of Grand General Critique of the whole concept, not this micro nitpick of a document that even I have said needed rewriting and clarification. *sigh* Very disappointing, really. I was hoping for something I could sink my teeth into, a real epistemological slug fest. This is...bookkeeping.

*more sighing* I suppose I have to deal with it, though. But you're going to have to wait and I suspect this will be piece by piece. I'm getting my new lappy tomorrow [Yay!] and I have more important things to do.

~M~

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[info]dorianezra
2007-03-20 04:43 am UTC (link)
present me with something of substance and i will reply.
and of course, i will wait ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Easy One First
[info]nebris
2007-03-20 06:09 am UTC (link)
demonize them and then dumb all counterarguments against you to ignorant ball-clutchery. where are your reasons or examples? oh, right. you don't have any.

http://nebris.livejournal.com/1300764.html?thread=2508060#t2508060

http://nebris.livejournal.com/1307279.html

This [info]lord_sauron is 'the ball clutcher'. Another Canadian, too. You guys seem to have it in for me. lol

I wish I could also show the brawl in in [info]feminist_fatale, but the mod is a putz, deleted the posts, and then denied he did so. But here's some of the fall out:

http://community.livejournal.com/stupid_free/273584.html

http://www.journalfen.net/community/otf_wank/526156.html

I think I could safely say that the above hysteria justifies my opening statement.

~M~

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Re: Easy One First
[info]dorianezra
2007-03-20 03:04 pm UTC (link)
i suppose ignorance is a bit more profound these days.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

The Second Part
[info]nebris
2007-03-20 08:44 am UTC (link)
For this one, you get to do the work. Ask some of these 'strong, self-sufficient' women you know what they would do if they woke up one morning and all the men in the world had vanished. Don't listen to their words so much as their emotion response and demeanor. That will show you the truth of the matter.

~M~

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Re: The Second Part
[info]dorianezra
2007-03-20 03:00 pm UTC (link)
and wouldn't you say the same of the reverse?
who wants to live in a world with no women?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The Second Part
[info]nebris
2007-03-21 01:30 am UTC (link)
One gal in my LJ said: "If all the men in the world suddenly died, I'd imagine I'd be devastated. Not because I need men to know who I am. But because I would have lost half the people I loved. I believe most men would respond similarly if women were wiped out. We'd survive, maybe even excel after getting past our grief... nevertheless, we would still grieve."

I replied: "I think women would grieve, there would be mass suicides [with a fair amount of infanticide], some physical disaster as systems that did not have enough trained females to operate then failed, and then, slowly but surely, women would begin to rebuild society.

I think men would also grieve, there would be mass suicide, but I think there would also be war and violence as many men who could not face a world without women - 'we'll all faggots now!' - acted out their fear and anger on a personal, regional, and global scale.

I've given this quite a bit of thought as a writer. =)"


~M~

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Outbreeding
[info]nebris
2007-03-20 11:39 am UTC (link)
condescending to your reader, excellent. unless you have many occasions in which people don't understand what out-breeding is, this is just pretentious bullcock.

I must say that your tone here is a bit cunty, but whatever...

And the fact of the matter, which you'll see in those links I provided, is that I do 'have many occasions in which people don't understand what out-breeding is' and most go straight to Holocaust metaphors, so, yes, it does have to be spelled out - over and over again for that matter - that this does not mean direct extermination, but a slow process over time.

I'm starting to get the feeling you don't get out much. You seem awfully naive for a 'conman'.

~M~

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Re: Outbreeding
[info]dorianezra
2007-03-20 03:07 pm UTC (link)
i apologize, i had no idea people on the internet are even more profoundly slow than people in real life. or maybe people in montreal are just a bit more knowledgable, but 'out-breeding' is a fairly simple concept for people to understand.

and i think that it's that i go out too much, and spend too little time on the net.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Outbreeding
[info]nebris
2007-03-21 01:49 am UTC (link)
I'm not trying to 'pull rank' here. I have traveled a fair amount, lived in places as diverse New York's upper west side, in Indian villages in the Mexican state of Chiapas, in mansions in Beverly Hills and homeless shelters on LA's Skid Row. And I'll be fifty five at the end of this summer.

I've met some amazing people of all 'genders' along the way. But my general observation has been that the vast majority of humans are very provincial and often willfully ignorant.

As a general rule, humans fear change because it could mean loss. The most basic element with the paradigm I advocate is this: I have found, as a general rule, that human females tend to deal with change more reasonably, and with less violence, than do human males...as a general rule. In an age where we have technologies that can destroy us by intention within days, or over decades through simple inaction, I believe that is a vital distinction. That is the bottom line. The rest is just boilerplate. And time is running out.

~M~

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some scientific evidence
[info]nebris
2007-03-21 06:13 am UTC (link)
"agreed. except where is your link to the 'scientific evidence' about this happening naturally?"

That is part of what I plan to include in the final version. I've got some interesting and even scary links on my other comp.

~M~

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First let us look at history...
[info]nebris
2007-03-22 10:45 am UTC (link)
I had thought of talking about the brutality of the Parisian Communards or how the Cherokee waged aggressive war and took slaves and so on, but I don't have the time or energy to write that manner a thesis. Instead, I made a list, which I have posted below. I dare you to read the first ten pages on each of the Google Search Pages. Hell, just look in the upper right side at the number of hits on each search. This is what Men do. I have studied it in a detail that would not only keep you up at night, it would make you vomit up your last five meals.

Go ahead, read it! Then come back and make your hopeful and reasoned pontifications.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=serial+killers&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=serial+rapists&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=murder+&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=war+crimes&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=genocide&btnG=Search

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=american+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=german+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=japanese+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=russian+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=french+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=chinese+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=roman+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+Christian+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+muslim+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jewish+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hindu+atrocities&btnG=Search

http://shokai.blogspot.com/2005/08/buddhist-atrocities.html

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Re: First let us look at history...
[info]dorianezra
2007-03-22 03:40 pm UTC (link)
perfect.

this and your "it's a man's world" reply will have me busy for at least a week compiling proper responses. now i have proper arguments to work on.

i will be working on defeating these as reasons for the 'male must end' mentality, as these i believe are very strong arguments in your favour, and i like to attack the stronger arguments first and slowly take out the weaker ones.

i trust you will be able to wait for my responses as i'm sure you have much to do.

thank you for replying.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Add this to your list...
[info]nebris
2007-03-28 10:07 am UTC (link)
http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/772290.html

~M~

(Reply to this) (Parent)

“It's A Man's World.”
[info]nebris
2007-03-22 11:18 am UTC (link)
"the biggest logical jump you've made and unfortunately the one this entire temple is based off of."

Actually, TOP is merely using that as a 'working construct', though it is certainly one that has many proponents and I'm definitely quite convinced of the truth of that statement and all that it implies.

However, what we are really 'based off of' is a Spiritual and Metaphysical Operating System, a Practical Start Up Strategy and a Long Term Strategy, which are backed up by an increasingly Detailed Working Plan.

The above is largely why I consider all this ideological banter to generally be a distraction, as much as it might 'clarify'. As I said HERE, this is an 'experiment' and we shall follow were it goes as The Goddess and our own lights take us. And action is the key.

~M~

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