dot_cattiness: Normally, I agree with the statement "if

donnaidh_sidhe, 2004-02-06 01:36 am UTC

lothie, 2004-02-06 04:01 pm UTC

Catnip mousie, table four -

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	bbwoof 2004-02-06 12:17 am UTC (link)
	No cookie on this one. If you write, you're a writer. Being a published writer is a whole different thing... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 12:53 am UTC (link)
	Writing is about creating. I'd rather read bad original fiction than good fan fiction, because at least some effort was made to create. I don't have anything against fan fiction itself; I write it too. But it's just an exercise. It's not true writing. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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Heehee! - (Anonymous), 2004-02-09 07:29 am UTC

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lothie, 2004-02-09 03:32 pm UTC

	Re: trizia 2004-02-06 04:24 pm UTC (link)
	If you write you are a writer If you get published you are an author. I thought that was the standard definition. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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painispretty, 2004-02-07 05:52 pm UTC

	xiphias 2004-02-06 12:20 am UTC (link)
	All AJ Hall has written is fan fiction, and she's generally considered to be a rather good writer. How about all the writers who got their start writing Star Trek novels? Were they not writers until they got their own worlds published? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 12:56 am UTC (link)
	Never heard of A.J. Hall, but if all she's writing is fan fiction (how legal is that?) then she hasn't proved she can write. I got MY start writing Star Trek fiction, and I'm not going to put down the exercise of writing fan fiction. But that's all it is, an exercise. It's fun and it can be lucrative (James Blish comes to mind) but it's not the real thing. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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	red_frog 2004-02-06 12:37 am UTC (link)
	I'm not a fan of fan fiction, but you sound here like the person who asked what kind of writer I was. When I told her "computer books and magazine articles", her face fell and she responded, "Oh. I thought you did something creative." Nope, sorry, I don't have any unpublished poetry in a moldy trunk in the attic. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 12:57 am UTC (link)
	laugh I have a tech contract. That's writing. I don't have a problem with the concept of writing fan fiction (I do it). But it's only an exercise. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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lothie, 2004-02-09 02:58 am UTC

	crossfire_ 2004-02-06 01:12 am UTC (link)
	Normally, I agree with the statement "elitism is a fine beginning for cattiness." But honeypie, all you've got here is the beginning, and I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough. You need to try harder next time; all this amounts to is an exercise. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: youraugustine 2004-02-06 01:14 am UTC (link)
	I love you, and want to lay alms at your feet. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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rainfallsautumn, 2004-02-06 03:25 am UTC

lothie, 2004-02-06 03:56 pm UTC

	autographedcat 2004-02-06 01:30 am UTC (link)
	Lothie, I love you dearly, but on this one I have to respectfully disagree. This isn't catty, it's just snobbish. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 03:59 pm UTC (link)
	Respectfully disagree all you want! It's an opinion. Besides, a lot of the stuff here isn't "true" cattiness, like the earlier charge of "pedantry" against some poor guy who was just trying to be friendly. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

oneironaut, 2004-02-07 08:32 am UTC

	cheshyre 2004-02-06 01:36 am UTC (link)
	I guess just categorize me with that unoriginal plagiarist Shakespeare, then... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: reddragdiva 2004-02-06 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, this is where "original characterisation" as the term is commonly used is actually just a subgenre of fanfic? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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lothie, 2004-02-06 08:15 pm UTC

*chortle* - (Anonymous), 2004-02-09 07:34 am UTC

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lothie, 2004-02-06 05:59 pm UTC

mamapduck
2004-02-06 01:39 am UTC (link)

So... if I write a song about Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere that isn't writing? I'm telling a story with characters and plot developed by someone else. What if I do a poem about Noah and the flood? Or an event I make up that I claim happened to Noah after the flood? How do these differ by your definition from "fan fiction" or do they?
"Ella Enchanted" is a retelling of Cinderella with a new twist but the base story is the old standby. How is that more creative than a Star Trek story?

I'm not jumping on you, just trying to figure out where you draw the lines.

	Re: rosefox 2004-02-06 05:34 am UTC (link)
	Don't forget the New Testament. (Reply to this) (Parent)

lothie, 2004-02-06 04:09 pm UTC

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cheshyre, 2004-02-06 06:25 pm UTC

mamapduck, 2004-02-07 03:24 am UTC

ororo
2004-02-06 04:12 am UTC (link)

Time to invoke the late great Groucho. "I don't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member."

That said, I disagree. I don't particularly like fanfiction, but I can't deny it's writing. In some ways, I see it being even more difficult because of the challenges of staying within parameters that someone else has put down. Or maybe that makes it easier for some folks. I don't know.

It takes creativity to put words on paper in a way that makes sense that people want to read. That's the way I see the bottom line.

	lothie 2004-02-06 04:30 pm UTC (link)
	And don't think I have a problem with you, or anyone, disagreeing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Here's One Writer, Published At That, Who Says...

yohannon
2004-02-06 04:17 am UTC (link)

...you're not a member of MY club, thank goodness.

Your small minded nit-picking as to the nature of "what makes a writer" is so myopic I have no doubt that you require a use of a white cane.

First, if fan fiction can be defined as the use of characters and situations created by another writer, the list of people who AREN'T writers include such notables as Philip Jose Farmer (His Riverworld series and "Barnstormer of Oz" book, for example), Nick Meyers (who wrote "The 7 Percent Solution", which uses Sherlock Holmes. In fact, ANY Sherlock Holmes based story could be called Fan Fic), Shakespeare...

That's right... Shakespeare. After all, it could be argued that he borrowed heavily from established greek myths for many of his stories, essentially changing the names, but lifting the plots wholesale.

Of course, that's hyperbole. But when someone has confused copyright law with the idea of plagiarism, I think it's time to be blunt in pointing out what "plagiarism" means (as taken from dictionary.com):

plagiarism - n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

Now, perhaps you were focussing on the "ideas" portion of plagiarism. Yet no one who does serious fan fic is suggesting that they were the ones who came up with the characters such fiction is based on. If I were to write fan fiction involving, say, characters from "The Lord of the Rings", and tried to claim that the characters and situation were MY idea... that's not only plagiarism, it's a sign of a serious break with reality, and that perhaps I should have my medication levels checked... now.

I write a (paid) op-ed column for a computer magazine (going on 8 years now... wow!), have been paid for written erotica (online AND in book form), and countless bits of fiction both entirely original AND "fan fic". Some of the fan fic I've read has been inventive, interesting, and (particularly in the realms of "slash") either incredibly hot or incredibly disturbing (sometimes both). There is some argument as to the legality of the use of characters and scenes copyrighted by someone (or someTHING, in the case of Disney or Paramount), but the general consensus is that, as long as you're not charging money for it, there's little that can be done about it, especially if the piece in question comes across as parody. The originators may not like it much (I know J.K Rowling would be HORRIFIED at the things I have house elves do in one of my latest efforts), but it's a fact of life.

Of course people who write fan-fic are "writers". Whether they're good or BAD writers is a matter of individual taste, and only people who lack the self esteem and self assurance as a writer themselves seem to be driven to make the distinction and/or "rules" for entry into their little "club", not wanting to believe that ANYONE can join, at any time. Doesn't life suck?

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*applauds*

adjectivemarcus
2004-02-06 11:32 am UTC (link)

I heartily concur with everything the above gentleman says.

Furthermore I think creativity is a rare and precious flower that people saying "Huh, another breed of rose? We already have those!" should not be allowed to trample.

The definition of words is a difficult matter though, isn't it? Oh if only there were some sort of book detailing what they all meant, maybe alphabetised for our convenience...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Bravo Right Back At You! -

yohannon, 2004-02-06 08:56 pm UTC

reddragdiva, 2004-02-06 05:00 pm UTC

Interesting Point -

yohannon, 2004-02-06 09:22 pm UTC

lothie, 2004-02-06 09:29 pm UTC

reddragdiva, 2004-02-07 09:20 am UTC

yohannon, 2004-02-07 10:59 am UTC

reddragdiva, 2004-02-07 11:56 am UTC

painispretty, 2004-02-07 05:59 pm UTC

reddragdiva, 2004-02-08 11:27 am UTC

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lothie, 2004-02-07 09:25 pm UTC

Re: Interesting Point - (Anonymous), 2004-02-09 07:40 am UTC

Re: Interesting Point - (Anonymous), 2004-02-09 07:38 am UTC

afra_schatz, 2004-02-09 04:26 pm UTC

	xlagartixax 2004-02-06 05:27 am UTC (link)
	Way to establish yourself on the geek heirarchy! Please refer to this handy flowchart for further inspiration, if you're looking for any other groups to feel superior to. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 04:44 pm UTC (link)
	No worries, I wrote that flowchart. (This is a lie.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mizzadamz 2004-02-06 10:54 am UTC (link)
	buzzer sounds thank you try again later, when you know what you are talking about. That's a good sweety pie (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 04:46 pm UTC (link)
	chuckle (Reply to this) (Parent)

reddragdiva
2004-02-06 11:50 am UTC (link)

You are, like, so wrong. Because Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern are Dead could be regarded as fanfiction, therefore all fanfiction is that good. And you didn't write Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, so therefore logically you can't complain about me talking about my 'l33t++ PotterSue being a waste of valuable seconds of your life. And I read about someone who wrote fanfiction and got a job on the show's writing team! Where they write fanfiction. And if you're really good, you can be Kevin J. Anderson and do novelisations of L. Ron Hubbard. And anyway, being a good writer has nothing to do with establishing your own characterisation and riding on reader assumptions. And you must be some sort of elitist. So I'm going to SCREAM AND SCREAM ABOUT HOW GOOD MY FANFIC IS UNTIL I TURN BLUE. And I'm not a whiny little shit with no creativity. How dare you.

http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=1227 - "We're trying to encourage a whole new generation that may be writing the Buffy the Vampire Slayer and The Fifth Element novelizations of tomorrow."

"That's not writing, that's typing" - Norman Mailer.

	Re: ivyblossom 2004-02-08 06:53 pm UTC (link)
	This rant would have worked a lot better if you'd ever actually read Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. But I guess real writers don't need to read. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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thewhiteowl, 2004-02-10 01:18 pm UTC

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reddragdiva, 2004-02-10 07:03 pm UTC

dindin
2004-02-06 02:57 pm UTC (link)

plagiarism

n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

1: Nope. Every damn word is mine.

2: Nope again. The characters were thought up by someone else, sure, and I give credit where credit is due. The ideas? All mine.

Must be a nice view from that high horse your ass is on.

	lothie 2004-02-06 04:50 pm UTC (link)
	Unless "your" author isn't interested in protecting his or her works, you're liable if you post the stuff. That said, as I mentioned, I write it too. It's a fine exercise. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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lysana, 2004-02-06 05:42 pm UTC

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lothie, 2004-02-06 05:55 pm UTC

	joshghiloni 2004-02-06 03:02 pm UTC (link)
	I think that if you punctuate outside of quotes--especially if what is quoted is a complete sentence--you shouldn't be allowed to join the club either. Sorry, honeypie. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 04:51 pm UTC (link)
	laugh Style changes, baybee. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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	penmage 2004-02-06 03:10 pm UTC (link)
	If you create a new idea using old characters and/or settings, that's creating, honeypie. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 04:52 pm UTC (link)
	Tell me that again when you've written something original, k? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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penmage, 2004-02-06 05:16 pm UTC

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lothie, 2004-02-06 05:57 pm UTC

	(Anonymous) 2004-02-06 08:51 pm UTC (link)
	dictionary definition of 'writer' writer n 1: writes (books or stories or articles or the like) professionally (for pay) [syn: author] 2: a person who is able to write and has written something You'd better write to the publishers of all the dictionaries and tell them that they missed off the 'which isn't fanfiction' from the end of point 2 there. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lothie 2004-02-06 09:08 pm UTC (link)
	I'll get right on it, Anonymous Person. (Reply to this) (Parent)

beckyzoole
2004-02-06 09:00 pm UTC (link)

Someone who write professionally is, indeed, a writer. Even if what they write is fanfic. Even if what they write is Harlequin romances, (which are worse than fanfic in my book).

Whether they are good writers or piss-poor is besides the point. All those who write professionally are, by definition, writers.

On the other hand, someone who has spent years writing The Great American Novel but has never sold a thing, is not a writer but a hobbyist. Even if it's great literature.

It's simply a matter of accepted definition.

If a mail clerk writes Mary Sues in the evenings and never publishes them, then, no, he's not a writer.

	lothie 2004-02-06 09:26 pm UTC (link)
	Oddly enough, I don't totally agree with YOUR definition. But I'm fine with that. ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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beckyzoole, 2004-02-06 09:36 pm UTC

Re: - (Anonymous), 2004-02-09 07:44 am UTC

kenovay
2004-02-06 11:14 pm UTC (link)

Normally, I agree with the statement "if you write, you're a writer".

Yes. So do I. So how can you say fanfiction doesn't count? I'm sorry, you're really not being logical.

See Kenovay. See Kenovay typing. See Kenovay typing words. See Kenovay typing sentences. See Kenovay writing. And whether I'm writing Sparrington smut or original fantasy, I'm writing.

You keep repeating "it's just an exercise." An exercise is also a form of writing. Just because someone is doing something to stretch their creative muscles rather than get published does not invalidate it.

And I'm sure you're getting bored of this, but I still haven't seen you answer it properly. Have another try. So under your new system, Shakespeare, and most of his contemporaries, is not a writer, Virgil (and yes, dearling, he was called Vergilius, but the accepted convention is to spell it 'Virgil'. It's a tad pretentious otherwise) is not a writer, the Greek playwrights were not writers, T. H. White is not a writer... I'm sure you're getting bored. Just... attempt to address the point correctly, without huge gaps of logic? For me?

lothie
2004-02-07 12:16 am UTC (link)

For the life of me I can't figure out why anybody would define Shakespeare et al. as fanfic writers. *shrug* There's nothing to address.

As for Vergil vs. Virgil:

According to Gilbert Highet in The Classical Tradition, the misspelling (Virgil) began early, possibly as the result of Vergil's nickname Parthenias which was based on the poet's sexual restraint. In the Middle Ages the name Virgil was thought to refer to his magical (as in the virga magic wand) powers.

(http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_virgilvergil.htm)

No pretension involved, unless somehow I'm "pretentious" for preferring the correct spelling.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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	vorpal_sword 2004-02-07 12:30 am UTC (link)
	I don't know of anyone who can write in a vacuum of experience and influence. If you write, you're a writer. (Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2004-02-09 12:20 am UTC (link)

Well, under your definition, I'm a writer. I've written ads, catalog copy, press releases, video/radio news releases, magazine articles, and a guide to help third- and fourth-world countries set up their own talking book program, and I've been paid for doing it.

The reason I object to your comments has nothing to do with the fact that I also write fan fiction. Comments like yours continue to provide those who disgorge their latest sugar-high on the 'net an excuse: "It's just fanfic! We don't need no stinkin' plot, characterization, canon, continuity, spelling, grammar. We're not real writers."

Those of us who appreciate the well-written word, whether in literature, poetry, or yes, God-forbid, fan fiction, have fought long, hard and sometimes brutal battles in our respective fandoms over the importance of the above. By treating fanfic as anything less than real writing and the people who engage in the activity as anything less than real writers, you allow and justify their continued abuse of the written word. And that is something to which I object, wholeheartedly.

Do I think that every creator of fanfic can become a good writer? No. But with practice and adherence to the rules of writing, they can probably manage to compose something that is readable, and probably no worse than the latest "I had an alien's love child" article in the Weekly World Globe (and AMI's "writers" get paid for that dreck, too).

Stacey